J.E. Sawyer on key dialogue writing concepts

[Janmanden]

That actually made sense.

I think the real problem with dialogue and voice is that people got an idea what it's about and what the outcome should be.

Troika was really onto something with the Malkavian dialogue.

It actually worked a bit the same in Mass Effect, but the problem was that the wheel made too much sense to begin with and the outcome didn't.

And now something complete different, but not completely unrelated: Scottish Star Trek.

Wasn't that much nicer?

 

[Jidai Geki]

Skynet is upon us.

 

[jero cvmi]

not yet.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2JmbgbXX4E&NR=1[/youtube]

 

[Morbus]

If some chat or forum bots can almost trick people in "usual" conversations and I heard a lot even give their credit card informations to such bots in MSN ... why not use the algorithms of those bots for a RPG generating some kind of interaction.

You don't expect to compare a multi-branched conversation that's supposed to be well written and interesting to a IM conversation between a single-goaled bot and a stupid person that's so dumb they even give their credit car number to someone else, do you?

IM conversations are completely different. In fact, they are SO different, when I talk with some people in my contact list I sometime think they aren't even reading what I write or something... THEY look like bots.

 

[sickfinger]

I hope this will not happen. In Neverwinter 2 (which is obsidian game too) i hated it that no matter what you said to the dwarf or that thief kid they still would tag up with you.

I think Sawyer is talking about false options as they pertain to central plot devices or paths, which trick the player into believing that the end result will change, which it does not.

 

[Crni Vuk]

If some chat or forum bots can almost trick people in "usual" conversations and I heard a lot even give their credit card informations to such bots in MSN ... why not use the algorithms of those bots for a RPG generating some kind of interaction.

You don't expect to compare a multi-branched conversation that's supposed to be well written and interesting to a IM conversation between a single-goaled bot and a stupid person that's so dumb they even give their credit car number to someone else, do you?

IM conversations are completely different. In fact, they are SO different, when I talk with some people in my contact list I sometime think they aren't even reading what I write or something... THEY look like bots.

You have to start somewhere though ... all I am saying is that the tools are there. We have the hardware. Its just that no one is working with it. Its ... only visuals. Voiced crap. Visuals. And voice sometimes. And visuals ... a bit physics maybe, somewhere stuff that you can kick around and see fly.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vYzw3Yw8Pc[/youtube]

Its a evolution. Just like graphic is. If devs dont start to work and use such tools and eventualy get better ones in the future ... we might still just stay with Biowaresque fake choice dialogues and Oblivion-you-want-monologues crap.

Conversation AI has evolved a long way. Can you imagine a future RPG where all NPCs are something like this?

Oh, imagine that!!!!

[/quote]

I ve seen worse than that in the Order

 

[Morbus]

I don't think there's even any reason to work on that kind of technology. As I said, it's hard enough to produce quality writing for most folks, let alone to teach a machine to produce it... Because, at the end of the day, it's not about function (that's why we have wiki dialog), it's about style and enjoyment.

I went on to keep writing dialogs for Wendigo after I fiddled around with the bots, and I was so contaminated by their crappy style I couldn't write anything proper. Seriously, I may not be the very good, but here's an example of for you guys to get some perspective (because Fallout 3's dialog is very bad, it's no decent reference).

“Are there any settlements nearby?”
“There are, yes. The nearest one is %Settlement2%., you'll reach it if you follow the main road south. There's also Baldelam on the other side of the Oalad river, but they are under siege, so I recommend you don't go there. The pass here will take you through the mountains towards the coast, but don't take it. That's the old way home. Since they opened the Calica pass in the North, this one here has been abandoned and is very dangerous. Just follow the road north, and turn east in %Village1%. You do need a permit to pass, however. A precautionary measure against spies...”
“Is there any other place of interest?”
“There's the coal mines of %Settlement2%, but other than that, just scattered farmhouses and hunting cabins.”
"Tell me about %Settlement2%.”
“%Settlement2% is a mining town. Pretty poor neighborhood, some docks, and little else. Oh, and the the mines, of course. It's a good place to earn quick money if you're desperate, but there's a very high chance of loosing it to some thugs the moment after you get it.”
“How is Baldelam?”
“It's a big city. They have a huge library there, and many beautiful theaters all around the place. It's a great place to visit, because of all the old buildings and the gardens... Boy, I hope the Guard does alright there. It'd be a damned shame to see that city fall...”
“What can you tell me about the Calica Mountain Pass?”
“It's a narrow pass in the heart of the mountain. No tunnels, no bridges, just a narrow passage between the cliffs. It's great because there's no easy access to the mountains above, so the road is easy to defend, and along the way there are man built caves to hide from the blizzards, so it's very safe. Calica is the small village on the other side where the Guard house is, so that's why it's called the Calica Pass.”

This is what we have to look at when we propose ourselves to create a systematic mechanism of procedural dialog generation. Big, long lines of interesting text with relevant information, well written, and where we, as the player, don't have to be constantly providing input to move forwards. Not what those sex bots are...

 

[alec]

That Captain Kirk dude is awesome. He makes no sense whatsoever, but then WHAM! he totally hits the point.

It's amazing. It feels like I know hime and he knows me.

This is so cool.

 

[Alphadrop]

Weird, Oblivion has better physics than Fallout 3.

 

[Crni Vuk]

I don't think there's even any reason to work on that kind of technology. As I said, it's hard enough to produce quality writing for most folks, let alone to teach a machine to produce it... Because, at the end of the day, it's not about function (that's why we have wiki dialog), it's about style and enjoyment.

naw. Dont say that. If people always thought that way about new technology or eventualy unconventional ways we might miss a lot of good things today.

Weird, Oblivion has better physics than Fallout 3.

both games have the lulz-physic though.

 

[Morbus]

I don't think there's even any reason to work on that kind of technology. As I said, it's hard enough to produce quality writing for most folks, let alone to teach a machine to produce it... Because, at the end of the day, it's not about function (that's why we have wiki dialog), it's about style and enjoyment.

naw. Dont say that. If people always thought that way about new technology or eventualy unconventional ways we might miss a lot of good things today.

Oh, I know that perfectly. It's just that we'd be investing in something that's has no obvious reason to invested in. In the games industry, at least. Elsewhere, it's probably a well of opportunities.

 

[UncannyGarlic]

Oh, I know that perfectly. It's just that we'd be investing in something that's has no obvious reason to invested in. In the games industry, at least. Elsewhere, it's probably a well of opportunities.

I think it's more that it has no place in the game industry outside of a small niche of interaction simulation games (non-Japanese dating sims come to mind or like a Sims game that you control a specific character in). The problem is that the more broad you make the game's scope, the more you compete with MMOs. With a Sims like game you'd be specifically competing with Second Life. It would really only work in a singleplayer virtual LARP, which I'm not sure how broad of an audience it would appeal to.

 

[Viliny]

Crni, do you have any sources for these... AI driven MSN spam bots?

As far as i know they're just a bunch of IF clauses. Comparing spambots to AI just sounds hella-stupid.

 

[Crni Vuk]

it was just some example dont get that worked up on it. Its the evolution that counts compare the last 10 years and think what we might have in the next 10 or 15 years available. Maybe programms that are able to simulate human behaviour and coversations at some point. Who knows.

 

[Viliny]

it was just some example dont get that worked up on it. Its the evolution that counts compare the last 10 years and think what we might have in the next 10 or 15 years available. Maybe programms that are able to simulate human behaviour and coversations at some point. Who knows.

Seems to me that we need someone smart enough to create an AI - building fancier microwaves doesn't mean we can simulate AI any better.

 

[Crni Vuk]

is that so ?

 

[Morbus]

Crni, do you have any sources for these... AI driven MSN spam bots?

As far as i know they're just a bunch of IF clauses. Comparing spambots to AI just sounds hella-stupid.

Well, as far as I can understand, they are semantic databases put together with complex functions. Not simple if clauses. Text is generated procedurally (hence the quirks) based on the meaning of each sentence or question.

 

[Viliny]

Crni, do you have any sources for these... AI driven MSN spam bots?

As far as i know they're just a bunch of IF clauses. Comparing spambots to AI just sounds hella-stupid.

Well, as far as I can understand, they are semantic databases put together with complex functions. Not simple if clauses. Text is generated procedurally (hence the quirks) based on the meaning of each sentence or question.

Thanks for the explanation, i'll have to chat up the next viagra salesperson then

 

[jero cvmi]

I don't think there's even any reason to work on that kind of technology. As I said, it's hard enough to produce quality writing for most folks, let alone to teach a machine to produce it... Because, at the end of the day, it's not about function (that's why we have wiki dialog), it's about style and enjoyment.

This is what we have to look at when we propose ourselves to create a systematic mechanism of procedural dialog generation. Big, long lines of interesting text with relevant information, well written, and where we, as the player, don't have to be constantly providing input to move forwards. Not what those sex bots are...

Well, as far as I can understand, they are semantic databases put together with complex functions. Not simple if clauses. Text is generated procedurally (hence the quirks) based on the meaning of each sentence or question

I don't know about spambots, (i would guess they are not really AI), but the chatbots i linked to use a system that works sort of like this:

The bot has a set of prewritten responses and it uses its AI to guess which response or combination of responses and dialogue variables suits best the user input and the context of the previous conversation. Input and responses are stored in a form similar to dialogue trees, in a markup language similar to XML.

What the bot says is not entirely automatically generated, but rather picked and assembled from prewritten sentences, so the length, quality and style of the dialogue lines depends on the person who writes the dialogue.

Anyway, I think you're right that it's not such a good idea to have such bots in a game. The biggest problem with it is that you can't confine the player to saying only stuff that match the player's character. If a game lets the player say anything, then it's more LARPing than Roleplaying i guess.

 

[hagren]

OFF

Heh, as soon as I read the news post I knew at least one person would complain about ME's repeated dialogues

It's true that often, regardless of the choice of keyword, Shepard said the same thing, and it felt pretty cheap.

But imho they've improved a lot on that when ME2 came out, I felt the keywords represented the spoken dialogue a lot more closely and encountered much less repetition.

Plus, as someone said, it's defining the character of your commander, regardless what he says or what the outcome is- like when you could choose to join the Master in Fallout 1, yet ended your game immediately. You can only put so many choices in your games, especially when there's voice talent to be paid.

Also, thanks to the less black-and-white moral choices, I missed so many Paragon points that I could not persuade Jack to remain loyal to me after her mission, which resulted in her death in the suicide mission. Great stuff.

And I absolutely adored the interrupt system- sometimes I played nice and saved some lives, and very often (even though I usually play noble characters) I used the Renegade interrupts to satisfying effect- anyone remember the interrogation scene in Thane's loyalty mission? I enjoyed the hell out of beating that guy to a pulp.

So yes, agreed with Sawyer, and yes, Bioware has still lessons to learn regardless how great the experience was compared to the first instalment, but at least Bioware knows a thing or two about voice acting, writing and execution in contrast to Bethesda and their supposed third instalment of the Fallout franchise, which was a mediocre mess. Thane alone was a character which had more effort put into him than any of the interchangeable John Doe's of F3.

I'm so very, very curious to see what Bioware will do with ME3 and, of course, Obsidian with New Vegas. Aside from the horrid visual design (Thank you Bethesda!) it definitely piqued my interest.

ON

One thing Sawyer missed is the sin of having multiple characters with the exact same information, ie. questions you could ask them and the answers they gave. Annoyed me extensively in Oblivion.
Thus, it's better to have fewer characters with lots and lots of unique dialogue instead of many cloned characters without any value to the player whatsoever.

Btw, are Obsidian's games any good?

(Sorry for the off-topicness )