Joke on Turkey in the EU

[Paladin Solo]

I've been to Turkey. I've lived there for 9 years on Incirlik Air Force Base. Been to Adana, Izmit, and even visited Istanbul for about two minutes (boat ride). It's not all that bad. But you do see poverty. I remember kids almost getting run over trying to make a buc (like ten billion to them, exaggeration) to wash a guy's window on his car. I remember my dad gave one of the kids a quarter once, and the little sucker's face lit up like a christmas tree. I didn't think much of it then, but I feel sorry for them now.

 

[Jebus]

Well,the living standard(and everything you wrote) doesn't depend on our people who are inteligent and so on.It depends on the politicians.And you may write that we choose our politicians,we can go on strike if we don't like something,but the problem is that there are so many pensioneers who are ill-breed by the soviet government many years ago that they choose almost everything,so we haven't much choise.But Bulgaria will be developed very much by the time the people born before 1980 have died.

It doesn't really have all that much to do with the politicians you have nowadays either. It just takes a lot of money and recources to rebuild a country and, contrary to what your politicians might have told you, the EU isn't going to start a second Marshall-plan to help rebuild the Eastern nations in a minimal period of time.
The reasons for that are simple: 1. All present day richer countries in Europe are selfish, 2. The European institutions simply don't get enough money and 3. There is a form of bias in who gets the most money: Spain, for example, still recieves double the amount of aid the new Eastern member recieve.
It's a hoax, really. The most important factor in the future Eastern European resurection will be good oldfashioned hard work.

And you live in Belgium.It is very developed country.But do you know that if the Turks hadn't conquered Byzantie,the Renaissance would have started from it and Bulgaria was next to it,so it would have been much developed than your country.The Turks are(were)guilty.

That's a very simplistic way of putting things. Sure, the *real* renaissance started with intellectuals fleeing from Byzantine, but there were also many other elements in play. The main reasons the renaissance started in Italy were the economical athmosphere, the cultural heritage, and the competition between the city-states. Also note that the Italian renaissance wasn't really the only renaissance, since some hundred years before that you also had what historians call the "Karolinian Renaissance", or whatever it's called in English.
The core is, that you never have one single factor that sprouts a revolution, and that cultural evolutions are rarely a phenomona that just starts someday, without a prior development that, in the course of decennia, has created a basis in which the new ideas are able to spread. Why do you think the renaissance, outside of Italy, caught on faster in the then enourmously rich Flanders than Spain, for example? Bulgaria, nor Byzantine itself, then simply didn't have the recourses to be the bridgehead of a cultural revolution.
And, lastly, the fact that Flanders is now a very developed region has little to do with the Renaissance. After all, the Renaissance was basically cultural in nature, while Flanders is now in the position it is thanks to economical reasons.

And please tell me 2 facts
1.How many books of Russian writers have you read??

Well, not all that much, to be honest. I've read some Tolstoj and Dolstojevski, and some plays by Anton Tsjechov, but that's about it. That's mainly due to the fact that I mostly prefer to read non-fictional works, though, because I generally enjoyed reading them.

2.You prefer Turkey in the EU to a Slavonic country,aren't you.

Turkey has its place, in the EU. Even if it is but a symbolic one, to demonstate that the EU doesn't discriminate on basis of religion or ethnical backgrounds. Today, however, Turkey does not live up to the requirements for membership of the EU, and can therefore not yet be allowed.

Also, I kindly ask you not to accuse me of racist bias. I honestly don't give a shit if you were Slavonic, Turk, Mongol or Aboriginal: if you live on the continent of Europe, you should one day be allowed into the European Union. Simple as that.

 

[Fas Ist]

I've been to Turkey. I've lived there for 9 years on Incirlik Air Force Base. Been to Adana, Izmit, and even visited Istanbul for about two minutes (boat ride). It's not all that bad. But you do see poverty.

Yes,you do.People there are very unhappy and miserable.

I remember my dad gave one of the kids a quarter once

That's very kind of him.And I remember that when I was in Turkey we saw an old man selling tangerines when it was pelting with rain,because if he went to other place noone would see him and buy his products.Then my dad bought everything(few kilos)he was selling.

2.

And, lastly, the fact that Flanders is now a very developed region has little to do with the Renaissance. After all, the Renaissance was basically cultural in nature, while Flanders is now in the position it is thanks to economical reasons

That is true,but I wrote about Bulgaria.Not about Rennaissance in Flanders.There is no doubt that Bulgaria would me much developed than Italy,Germany and Flanders.These countries had the opportunity to be free and to develop,just because their geographic location.Bulgaria,Serbia and Byzantie almost stopped the Turks who when came to Vienna to conquer it,the army was less than this which conquered the Balkan peninsula.So Countries in Europe must thank to Bulgaria and the others.And we were conquered,only the Polishes tried to help us to win our liberty(I mean for that time-14,15-th sentury-not lately).That was very thankless of countries in western Europe.

3.

Well, not all that much, to be honest. I've read some Tolstoj and Dolstojevski, and some plays by Anton Tsjechov, but that's about it. That's mainly due to the fact that I mostly prefer to read non-fictional works, though, because I generally enjoyed reading them.

I asked you it,because inteligent people read Russian literature at first.So-see Bulgarians are inteligent,but in some other way.As a matter of fact do you know that the man who INVENTED THE COMPUTER was a BULGARIAN.His name was Ivan(John)Atanasov.This happened in America of course.

 

[alec]

By Wabbit do you mean Rabbit or Wahhabi?

I get you never saw much Bugs Bunny cartoons, eh?

Alec you're real name Runner?

EDIT: Runner you're real name Alec?

MYSTARY 8)

 

[Jebus]

That is true,but I wrote about Bulgaria.Not about Rennaissance in Flanders.There is no doubt that Bulgaria would me much developed than Italy,Germany and Flanders.

Well, no. Even if the Mongol/Turk hordes have never excisted, Bulgaria wouldn't have had the same level of wealth the Western European nations now have. The reason for that is simple: because of its geographical location.
The reason why the Western countries are now rich has a lot, if not everything to do that they lay alongside the Atlantic ocean. So when in the 16th century the colonisation era started, all of the trade went by there. The Atlantic ports florished, and because of ages-old trades routes, the hinterland floshired too. Western Europe became a hive of industry, and there the foundations of the present wealth was laid.
With the recources, infrastructure and population present in those countries twohundred years later, it was no wonder that the Industrial revolution started there. And when that happened, Western Europe really let all the other countries behind in terms of wealth and technological advancement.



So you see, it was not the Mongol/Turkish hordes that are to 'blame' for the present lower level of wealth in Bulgaria. It is poor for the same reasons as Slovakia is (was); and that is simply because of it's location to the Atlantic ocean.

Bulgaria,Serbia and Byzantie almost stopped the Turks who when came to Vienna to conquer it,the army was less than this which conquered the Balkan peninsula.So Countries in Europe must thank to Bulgaria and the others.

Well, the size the Mongol army had when it reached Vienna had little to do with the fact that Vienna wasn't conquered. The reason Batu returned was simple because the Great Khan has died...

But of course, it was nice of the Bulgarians to serve as cannon meat

And even if the Monol/Turkish hordes had conquered Western Europe, it's highly doubtable they would've turned the country into an Islamic republic or something. After all, when the Mongol conquest stopped, the territiorium they had conquered wasn't forged together into one great empire. A bunch of smaller empires were forged, and were lead by a small elite of Mongol rulers.

And when the Mongols became sedentary they were assimilated into the culture of the empires they had conquered. Even though the Qin dinasty in China were Mongols, one can hardly argue they were any different from Chinese rulers of old. And when Babur conquered Delhi, he himself was as the head of an established Kingdom, and one could hardly still call him Mongol. He had completely adabted to the customs of the peoples he had conquered, and wasn't any different from the people he ruled. (Instead of terms of religion of course, but he never imposed the Islam upon the Indian people. Also, the Islam wasn't, as you probably know, a Mongol religion.) And when the Ottomans conquered Mekka ten years later, they weren't the Turkish hordes that emigrated from the Altai anymore...

Anyway, my point is that if the Mongols would've indeed conquered Europe, they would've also been assimilated into the then present cultures. They would've become just as European as the leaders then. Hell, if they would've managed to get all the way to Flanders in the first place, which in itself would've already been quite an accomplishment.
And whether the Ottomans would've conquered Europe is of course a non-question. They were never even able to conquer all of Spain, so they sure as hell would've never been able to conquer all of Europe...

And we were conquered,only the Polishes tried to help us to win our liberty(I mean for that time-14,15-th sentury-not lately).That was very thankless of countries in western Europe.

There you show a little lack of historical perspective. After all, mobility in the middle and Early Modern ages weren't what they are now. Bulgaria was then half a world away for the Western Europeans. You can't really blame them for not helping the Bulgarians fighting battles agains the Ottomans, just as the Western Europeans can hardly blame the Bulgarians for not helping to fight the Moors in Spain.

Well, not all that much, to be honest. I've read some Tolstoj and Dolstojevski, and some plays by Anton Tsjechov, but that's about it. That's mainly due to the fact that I mostly prefer to read non-fictional works, though, because I generally enjoyed reading them.

I asked you it,because inteligent people read Russian literature at first.So-see Bulgarians are inteligent,but in some other way.

So what, are you saying that I'm stupid because I haven't the entire bulk of Russian literature?

And Russian literature is just as much spread and read here in Flanders as it is in Bulgaria. That of course doesn't mean that every Flemish reads it, of course, just as most likely not every Bulgarian has read it.

While the fact that you have read Russian literature indeed does say good things about you, I'm sorry to tell you that that doesn't automatically makes you intelligent. And that also doesn't mean that you magically become an expert in all scientific disciplines, including history...

As a matter of fact do you know that the man who INVENTED THE COMPUTER was a BULGARIAN.His name was Ivan(John)Atanasov.This happened in America of course.

That's nice. Good for you.






SQUAWK!

 

[Fas Ist]

Well, no. Even if the Mongol/Turk hordes have never excisted, Bulgaria wouldn't have had the same level of wealth the Western European nations now have. The reason for that is simple: because of its geographical location.
The reason why the Western countries are now rich has a lot, if not everything to do that they lay alongside the Atlantic ocean...

But however far or not Bulgaria would have been one of the most powerful countries in Europe,so there wouldn't have been any problems to reach the new world.

Well, the size the Mongol army had when it reached Vienna had little to do with the fact that Vienna wasn't conquered. The reason Batu returned was simple because the Great Khan has died...

I hadn't written about Mongol army.In fact only 2 small troops came to Bulgaria,but out tsar defeated them.

There you show a little lack of historical perspective. After all, mobility in the middle and Early Modern ages weren't what they are now. Bulgaria was then half a world away for the Western Europeans. You can't really blame them for not helping the Bulgarians fighting battles agains the Ottomans, just as the Western Europeans can hardly blame the Bulgarians for not helping to fight the Moors in Spain.

Yes.That is true,but during that time,my country had to fight or negotiate with Byzantie.And when these 2 countries concluded a peace treaty,the Turks came.So if Bulgarians had helped Spain,Byzantie would have conquer it.And what was the reason that other European countries didn't came to help us then.Oh,we(Bulgarians) have forgotten this.We aren't angry and I understand you.But we haven't forgotten the yoke(and you don't know anything about the tortures Turks made here-especially after the April rebelion-Bulgarians even escaped to Russia and Romania bacause of the concequences of it)The important is that Turks didn't and mustn't spread over Europe.So they mustn't be let become members to the EU

 

[Wooz]

What a dipshit.

 

[Fas Ist]

What a dipshit.

Well,did you watch the demonstrations in Germany and Ireland against extension of EU?There were some against Poland.People in this forum like Turkey,not Poland.

Turkish Literacy:
definition: age 15 and over can read and write
total population: 86.5%
And that number is growing daily with the booming economy

HAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAA.Kids in Bulgaria can read and write at the age on 6 or 7.Bulgarians are the bests matematicians in the world.There was a mathematical competition in South Korea this year and the first prize was for a Bulgarian,the second prize was for a Bulgarian,and the third one was for a.....Bulgarian

Turkey
GDP:
purchasing power parity - $489.7 billion (2002 est.)
GDP - real growth rate:
7.8% (2002 est.)
Bulgaria
GDP:
purchasing power parity - $49.23 billion (2002 est.)
GDP - real growth rate:
4.8% (2002 est.)

All right!Bulgaria-8 million people.Turkey-20 or 25 million people.Your arguments aren't correct ConstipatedCraprunner

Turkey is'nt a part of the middle east. And the Kurds are'nt as troublesome as they used to, thanks to the increasingly enigmatic Erdorgan.

It won't get in though. Too poor, and Europeans-particularly Hungarians, Austrians and Greeks-have unnaturally long memeories.

This is absolutely true!!!

Turkey has its place, in the EU. Even if it is but a symbolic one, to demonstate that the EU doesn't discriminate on basis of religion or ethnical backgrounds. Today, however, Turkey does not live up to the requirements for membership of the EU, and can therefore not yet be allowed.

RUBBISH.This symbolic place belongs to Bulgaria and Greece.But politicians of countries like England,Belgium,The Netherlands gave it to Turkey.Dishonest political pigs.

 

[Brother None]

Well,did you watch the demonstrations in Germany and Ireland against extension of EU?There were some against Poland.People in this forum like Turkey,not Poland.

What're you saying? I'm against all extension of the EU, including the previous 10 countries added.

The difference between adding a nation with a rich European history like Poland or a country that has been segregated from Europe during a long part of its history, like Turkey or, for that matter, Greece*, is another matter altogether.

* the concept that Greece has more of a place in Europe than Poland is historically rediculous. Poland-Lithuania was a thriving nation with direct interaction with the greatest power of Western Europe, rich culturally and economically, and that didn't change until the Russian invasion. Greece has always been kind of cut off from Western Europe, being an Orthodox country, and has been cut off even more during the Ottoman reign. But meh.

Turkey
GDP:
purchasing power parity - $489.7 billion (2002 est.)
GDP - real growth rate:
7.8% (2002 est.)
Bulgaria
GDP:
purchasing power parity - $49.23 billion (2002 est.)
GDP - real growth rate:
4.8% (2002 est.)

All right!Bulgaria-8 million people.Turkey-20 or 25 million people.Your arguments aren't correct ConstipatedCraprunner

Ehehehehe, ok, two points.

1. The real growth rate of GDP is not really tied to population numbers, tho' it's tied to population growth, so Turkey's GDP's growth rate being higher than yours is relevant.
2. How about GDP per capita?

Bulgaria - purchasing power parity - $6,500 (2002 est.)
Turkey - purchasing power parity - $7,300 (2002 est.)

Per capita, if you wonder, means they factor in all variables, including city-dwellers vs. farm-dwellers etc.

In other words, Turkey's purcashing power parity per capita is higher than yours.

RUBBISH.This symbolic place belongs to Bulgaria and Greece.But politicians of countries like England,Belgium,The Netherlands gave it to Turkey.Dishonest political pigs.

Bulgaria and Greece have no place in the EU, any more than Turkey. Quite frankly, none of these three, or a number of other countries added, should have been added to the EU now and should have no place in the ranks of the EU for the next 20-odd years, while we carefully foster more healthy relationships with this area, which is not historically tied together like most of Western Europe (including Poland, goddammit).

Greece, however, is an exception in the fact that it has worked hard to foster a good relationship with the West. That and typical Renaissance thinking (Greece may be Europe ancestor, yes, but current Greece has so little semblance to Hellenic Greece, it's not even funny. They even deny their own history) made Greece a part. I hate it.

But however far or not Bulgaria would have been one of the most powerful countries in Europe,so there wouldn't have been any problems to reach the new world.

No they wouldn't. Jebus is right, Bulgaria does not have the geographical location to have joined in on the colonial era, especially not as, if there were no hordes, the more powerful Greece would have blocked your growth.

Wooz is right, by the way, you're being a dipshit. Your above answer is no counter-argument to Jebus' statement. Please back up your opinion with actual proof, if you will.

Bulgaria,Serbia and Byzantie almost stopped the Turks who when came to Vienna to conquer it,the army was less than this which conquered the Balkan peninsula.So Countries in Europe must thank to Bulgaria and the others.

I love it when people pull this card. Russians are apt to do it too. "We saved Europe"

No, sorry, no you didn't. Remember Spain? You weren't there to stop the Ottomans over there, and yet they were stopped. Oh, miracle above miracle, you mean the Western countries actually had a military, and might've beaten the Ottomans had they marched on? Gasp no!

Stopped the Turks, hmm? Strange, I seem to recall the siege of Ankara, a Turkish city, being very relevant in these wars.

Wanna know what stopped the first onslaught more than you did? It was the Ottoman Interregnum. And who was responsible for that? The Ottomans themselves, and the mongols.

The later wars were another matter. The Ottoman Empire never took moving beyond the Balkans that seriously, it was way more interested in the East, and it's battles with the mongols. Venice signed several peace treaties with the Ottoman Empire after Bulgaria had long been annexed by them and, quite frankly, the fronts were pretty secure.

As for the siege of Vienna, ahahahaha, dude, that was in 1683, LONG after Bulgaria was annexed under Murad II in 1448. The reason the Ottomans couldn't succesfully lay siege to Vienna had little to do with you, and, again, was the fault of internal degeneration and corruption for over a century.

And we were conquered,only the Polishes tried to help us to win our liberty(I mean for that time-14,15-th sentury-not lately).That was very thankless of countries in western Europe.

Oh, yes, sorry, we must've forgotten that back then there was something like the UN and it was the duty of countries to take care of each other

No wait, no there wasn't

If the role had been reversed and the Western Countries had been the occupied ones, you wouldn't have lifted a finger.

Besides which, you should stop living in a millenium ago and name events of then as arguments for what's happening now.

As a matter of fact do you know that the man who INVENTED THE COMPUTER was a BULGARIAN.His name was Ivan(John)Atanasov.This happened in America of course.

No, no it wasn't. To claim one man invented "the computer" is like claiming one man invented "the internet". Don't be such a fucking moron. You don't see Greeks running around claiming they invented math...well you do, but they're stupid

Also, you keep bringing up racial stereotypes. Watch it, we don't like racism here. Push it and I will SQUAWK you.

 

[Jebus]

But however far or not Bulgaria would have been one of the most powerful countries in Europe,so there wouldn't have been any problems to reach the new world.

No. The Holy Roman Empire was also a powerful 'nation' in Europe, yet they had no colonial empire to speak off. Same with Italy, the Ottoman empire,... And if these nations, who were undoubtably more powerful than Bulgaria ever was, never built out a cross-Atlantic empire because they simply didn't border on the damn Atlantic ocean, then how do you figure a country bordering on the Black Sea would have? Also, Bulgaria simply wasn't enough of a seafaring nation to be able to claim its place alongside the then reigning naval powers. Even if it would have focussed its sights on colonies (which they wouldn't), they would have never been able to compete in the land-grabbing that started after the Treaty of Tordesillas came to an end.

And what was the reason that other European countries didn't came to help us then.

Because they had other things to concern themselves with. The 100-year war and stuff.

Oh,we(Bulgarians) have forgotten this.We aren't angry

Pfew! Now I will at last be able to sleep at night!

The important is that Turks didn't and mustn't spread over Europe.So they mustn't be let become members to the EU

Listen, pal, I am going to say this once, and only once. You are a damn xenofobic. And a racist. And your visions of present day politics, economics and immigration patterns are either irrational or ignorant, and basically, I think they're both. If you ever utter this kind of hate-speech on these boards again, I am going to go Roshambo on your ass like you wouldn't believe.

Turkey has its place, in the EU. Even if it is but a symbolic one, to demonstate that the EU doesn't discriminate on basis of religion or ethnical backgrounds. Today, however, Turkey does not live up to the requirements for membership of the EU, and can therefore not yet be allowed.

RUBBISH.This symbolic place belongs to Bulgaria and Greece.But politicians of countries like England,Belgium,The Netherlands gave it to Turkey.Dishonest political pigs.

Well there. Aren't you well informed.

Greece is already a part of the EU, and Bulgaria will be added to the EU in 2006.
And even then, just because Turkey's added to the EU doesn't mean that it will take someone elses 'place'... Also, wether or not countries are allowed to the EU aren't decided by politicians of certain countries, but by the European comission. Here, perhaps you could read the comission's opinion on the Bulgarian applicaiton. It might teach you one or two things about how the EU works. It's not a bunch of fat politicians sitting around in a room smoking cigars, drinking whiskey and throwing around acceptances like it's the Council of Vienna all over again...

And, insult me again, or type another derogatory remark about my views and opinions, and I swear to god: I'll make you wish you'd never set on these forums.

 

[Brother None]

If you ever utter this kind of hate-speech on these boards again, I am going to go Roshambo on your ass like you wouldn't believe.

*waves hand* Hey, Jeebhead, Rosh doesn't concern himself with political debates

And, insult me again, or type another derogatory remark about my views and opinions, and I swear to god: I'll make you wish you'd never set on these forums.

Really? How?

 

[Jebus]

By "Going Roshambo on someone's ass" I mean smearing out his ignorace in the way Roshambo has so beautifully mastered.

And, when I do, he's going to regret ever setting foot on these forums.

So there.


SQUAWK!

 

[Brother None]

"Alright New York you talk a lot, let's have a look at you"

Sure you can talk the talk, Jebus, but can you, like, walk too?

 

[Jebus]

"Alright New York you talk a lot, let's have a look at you"

Sure you can talk the talk, Jebus, but can you, like, walk too?

Hell yeah I can.
And you should see my ass when I do. Pure steel, I tell ya.

And you behave now, before I walk all over you.


SQUAWK!

 

[John Uskglass]

I don't really want to get that involved, but I'm going to pick a few things.

Well, no. Even if the Mongol/Turk hordes have never excisted, Bulgaria wouldn't have had the same level of wealth the Western European nations now have. The reason for that is simple: because of its geographical location.
The reason why the Western countries are now rich has a lot, if not everything to do that they lay alongside the Atlantic ocean. So when in the 16th century the colonisation era started, all of the trade went by there. The Atlantic ports florished, and because of ages-old trades routes, the hinterland floshired too. Western Europe became a hive of industry, and there the foundations of the present wealth was laid.
With the recources, infrastructure and population present in those countries twohundred years later, it was no wonder that the Industrial revolution started there. And when that happened, Western Europe really let all the other countries behind in terms of wealth and technological advancement.

That's shit.

Italy became rich off of leaching from Byzantium, for during the Komneni period Alexios Ist signed over all the trade rights to Venice and Genoa. This had a huge impact on Byzantine society, perhaps larger then the Turkish victory at Manzekirt, and had as big an influence on getting rid of the Byzantine proto-middle class as the rise of the Magnetes.

If Italy did not have the wealth to look for alternate routs to the east, then America is never found. Or, if the Seljuk Empire crumbeled under Romanus Diogene's Armenian foot, then there would be no need for Christopher Columbus to risk his life and fortune for some crazy notion.

You also don't seem to realize that Byzantium would have had acces to lands almost as unsetteled as that of America, and twice as fertile as most of it (the Ukraine), not to mention the possibility of an Ethiopian trade, or Byzantium helping trade with a friendlier, Shi'ite Iran under Is'mail.

Main thing about Bulgaria is that it would'nt exsist in the same way. The Greekspeaking population of the Byzantine Empire would have eventually made the Bulgarian population a minority in it's native land, like Anatolia or Greece after the slavic invasions before it.

Stopped the Turks, hmm? Strange, I seem to recall the siege of Ankara, a Turkish city, being very relevant in these wars.

That was in 1402. If anything, if the Turks had won thier seige at Byzantium, it would have incurred twice as many casualties, and they did not have the technology or a Sultan with the genius of Mehmet II to break Hungary's formidible stationary defence system.

 

[Jebus]

Awww, CCR, it's really so cute how you always respond completely next to my point.
Sure, you threw around some pretty impressive Eastern names, and used some pretty big words, but none of them, and I really mean NONE of them, had anything whatsoever to do with my point.

You should really stop showing off the stupid fact you're studying some Islamic language or another, and therefore prolly learning some of its history, and start reading what the fuck I said.

 

[John Uskglass]

Awww, CCR, it's really so cute how you always respond completely next to my point.
Sure, you threw around some pretty impressive Eastern names, and used some pretty big words, but none of them, and I really mean NONE of them, had anything whatsoever to do with my point.

Shut the fuck up. Without the Ottomans, there would have been no impetus to sail west to get to the Indies. Thus Western Europe is meaningless. Get it? Thus you're comment is entirely incorrect, Bulgaria would be just as wealthy-probably more so- then Europe, as there would be no Atlantic trade for some centuries.

 

[Brother None]

Shut the fuck up. Without the Ottomans, there would have been no impetus to sail west to get to the Indies. Thus Western Europe is meaningless. Get it?

Ahahaahahaha!!!

You mean that if Napoleon would've been able to beat England, he wouldn't have gone for Russia? Or Hitler? If Hitler had beaten England, he wouldn't have gone for Russia none either!

No, wait, wait, if the Romans weren't stopped in Northern Africa by the formidable foes there, they would *never* have gone Northwards into Europe!

Hehehehe. Your respect for the Byzantine empire and obsession with the Ottomans are great, CC, but sometimes it blinds you to reality.

Do you honestly believe that crap? Do you believe that if Western Europe had been able to make full peace with the Ottomans, and establish predominantly land-trade routes into Asia, they would never have come up with the idea to sail around and conquer several nation? Do you honestly think that while the Ottomans were instrumental in making it happen in that way at that time, that if it weren't for them the Western nations would've simply done it *later*? Are you truely that ignorant, because quite frankly I held you in better esteem.

Italy became rich off of leaching from Byzantium, for during the Komneni period Alexios Ist signed over all the trade rights to Venice and Genoa. This had a huge impact on Byzantine society, perhaps larger then the Turkish victory at Manzekirt, and had as big an influence on getting rid of the Byzantine proto-middle class as the rise of the Magnetes.

What? Alexander Komnenos didn't "sign over all the trade rights to Venice and Genoa". I find it quite impressive that you're able to boil the long charter of economic priviledges down to "signed over all trade rights". You know damn well that's not what happened, and you make it sound as if it had no cause, only negative effects. Bull.

Did you read Donald Nicol's study on this? I suggest you do. It's describes the long relationship of the two nations a bit beyond "Italy was made rich by Byzantium"

Nice going on ignoring that Venice was a seperate state, not to dissapear until Napoleon conquered it.

If Italy did not have the wealth to look for alternate routs to the east, then America is never found. Or, if the Seljuk Empire crumbeled under Romanus Diogene's Armenian foot, then there would be no need for Christopher Columbus to risk his life and fortune for some crazy notion.

You also don't seem to realize that Byzantium would have had acces to lands almost as unsetteled as that of America, and twice as fertile as most of it (the Ukraine), not to mention the possibility of an Ethiopian trade, or Byzantium helping trade with a friendlier, Shi'ite Iran under Is'mail.

I'm sorry but you're twisting history the wrong way around here. The Americas? They were irrelevant. Northern America was a large expanse of land that were, while profitable, not nearly as interesting as Southern America or Africa, and that's not mentioning the prize catches of Indonesia and trading agreements with Japan, which is what a lot of people wanted.

Also, I see you happen to focus on one end of the deal; Spain and Italy. That's interesting, but the biggest colonial powers WERE, sadly, GB and France. They, I'm sure, were aware of the war-away Ottoman Empire, but GB had the direct problem of being an island with nowhere to expand to, and France had its back against the wall with its Eastern germanic neighbours. Tell me exactly how a lack of an Ottoman Empire would stop them from expanding?

 

[Fas Ist]

Bulgaria and Greece have no place in the EU, any more than Turkey. Quite frankly, none of these three, or a number of other countries added, should have been added to the EU now and should have no place in the ranks of the EU for the next 20-odd years, while we carefully foster more healthy relationships with this area, which is not historically tied together like most of Western Europe (including Poland, goddammit).

What about the Second World War??And please tell me did The Netherlands sent troops to Russia??Did you want Hitler to rule the world?How many jews live in The Netherlands now?

I love it when people pull this card. Russians are apt to do it too. "We saved Europe"

Well this is thankless.One of the greatest countries in the world Russia(they are only 2) saved it of course.The Russians stopped Hitlaaaa.There is no doubt.Did The Netherlands do this???Did England or France or do this??HA???Do you know ho many children did mother Russia lost???Please,tell me something-Did the Russians tried ro rule Europe.They could do this,but no?Why?Because Russia show respect to miserable countries in western Europe!!!

 

[John Uskglass]

Do you honestly believe that crap? Do you believe that if Western Europe had been able to make full peace with the Ottomans, and establish predominantly land-trade routes into Asia, they would never have come up with the idea to sail around and conquer several nation? Do you honestly think that while the Ottomans were instrumental in making it happen in that way at that time, that if it weren't for them the Western nations would've simply done it *later*? Are you truely that ignorant, because quite frankly I held you in better esteem.

Thing is, it was that place and that time that made it so important. It was that crucial moment with the Reformation, the begginings of modern government in Western Europe, that gave Western Europe the unique place in history as the only small area to truly govern the rest of the world.

Yes, they would have by some point. And I did overestimate it's impact a bit. But, still, the rise of the Ottoman Empire was as crucial in the rise of Western Europe as anything.

What? Alexander Komnenos didn't "sign over all the trade rights to Venice and Genoa". I find it quite impressive that you're able to boil the long charter of economic priviledges down to "signed over all trade rights". You know damn well that's not what happened, and you make it sound as if it had no cause, only negative effects. Bull.

Did you read Donald Nicol's study on this? I suggest you do. It's describes the long relationship of the two nations a bit beyond "Italy was made rich by Byzantium"

Nice going on ignoring that Venice was a seperate state, not to dissapear until Napoleon conquered it.

No, I have'nt. But he made it so that in the markets of the Byzantine World, Venetians had more power then the locals. Hell, Greek merchants more often then not tried to pass themselves off as Venetians so they would have less trouble in the marketplace.

Now, besides the obvious negative effects this had on Byzantine society, it als gave the Venetians more of an incentive to go on the Fith Crusade. Thus ending Byzantium, thus starting the Ottoman Empire, thus Chris Columbus sails west in 1492.

Now, that was'nt the only reason. Of course, the most of the Komneni's attempts to Feudalize Byzantium and move it away from the systems that had worked at defending Byzantium sense the days of Heraclianus baisically made the Turkish invasion lasting as opposed to every other one before it.

I'm sorry but you're twisting history the wrong way around here. The Americas? They were irrelevant. Northern America was a large expanse of land that were, while profitable, not nearly as interesting as Southern America or Africa, and that's not mentioning the prize catches of Indonesia and trading agreements with Japan, which is what a lot of people wanted.

Portugal sailed around the Cape of Good Hope.....why? Why was Portugal so wealthy, mind reminding me?

Cause the land routes across the Steepe where to dangerous, thus they loooked for alternatives-namely Portugese caravels traveling the sea way.

I think you're overestimating how economical the Portugese/Spanish way. About 1/4 of the ships that went from Europe to south-east Asia returned, and only a marginal bit more for the Americas. These things-weather Fluets or Caravels-where extremely dangerous.

Also, I see you happen to focus on one end of the deal; Spain and Italy. That's interesting, but the biggest colonial powers WERE, sadly, GB and France. They, I'm sure, were aware of the war-away Ottoman Empire, but GB had the direct problem of being an island with nowhere to expand to, and France had its back against the wall with its Eastern germanic neighbours. Tell me exactly how a lack of an Ottoman Empire would stop them from expanding?

Spain and Italy (and Portugal) where the movers. They found the place, for Christ's sake. There's a reason that British and French and Dutch colonialism did'nt start until the science of cartography caught up with the naval science.

Why 'sadly'? They where'nt as genocidal as the Spanish or the Portigese/