Look at what I found
- Thread starter Ugly John
- Start date
Saint_Proverbius
Vault Senior Citizen
Basil Zen said:
Because the Space Race in Fallout didn't start up until the mid21st century. They were in their infancy with the program. Back in the 1960s in Fallout's setting, they had a Fusion Race. That's why there's consumer level fusion in the game as well as micronized fusion. Notice the wide spread use of vacuum tubes, the CRT terminals, huge computers, and so on. LCDs, semiconductor tech, etc. are all space age technologies.
It's even stated in Fallout and Fallout 2 that bombs were used, not missiles.
DarkCorp said:
In Fallout, Smitty was making ammo, the GunRunners were making ammo, and the Brotherhood were making it. I seem to recall Vault City was producing ammo in Fallout 2 as well, but it's been a while since I played it.
Saint_Proverbius said:
Okay, I've played that game four or five times and I just looked through the Fallout Bible, so I'm pretty thoroughly convinced you just made all that up off the top of your head.
That said, the Fusion race began in the mid 21st century in response to tapped oil supplies, not the space race. We really have no idea how much research went into space, but we do know there are space ships. So I'm going to stick with my previous statements on how it doesn't break canon to have a giant space station with nuclear missiles mounted on it.
Ron Perlman's speech describes "Arrows of Fire," which are not bombs but missiles.
So once again. Nuclear missiles mounted on a space station in no way breaks canon. And not all of the technology is micronized tubes. There are also holovid displays, desktop computers, and wall mounted consoles.
DarkCorp
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
The minute you bring orbital weapon platforms in you start messing with the theme. Also, what point is there in building a weapon that is more vulnerable in space than hundreds of feet below rock. After all the vaults survived right? Lastly, why spend all the extra money in producing something who's job is already done by missile silos.
I can understand that nuclear missiles would have been used because I don't think enemy bombers would have survived a trip through american airspace nevertheless having the fuel to do so.
Also, the Fallout theme relies heavily on a post apocalyptic atmosphere. I doubt you could call Japan of WW2 post apocalyptic when only two cities were destroyed. The devastation in Fallout can only be brought about by thousands of nuclear weapons obliterating targets all over the United States and vice-versa.
As to spaceshuttles, it is believable that mankind was still interested in the 'exploration', of space. I doubt the humans had the ability to build spaceships as you posted.
PS: This is only my interpretation of what can happen. The spears of fire was in the intro to Fallout 2 so yes it can be considered not Fallout canon.
I can understand that nuclear missiles would have been used because I don't think enemy bombers would have survived a trip through american airspace nevertheless having the fuel to do so.
Also, the Fallout theme relies heavily on a post apocalyptic atmosphere. I doubt you could call Japan of WW2 post apocalyptic when only two cities were destroyed. The devastation in Fallout can only be brought about by thousands of nuclear weapons obliterating targets all over the United States and vice-versa.
As to spaceshuttles, it is believable that mankind was still interested in the 'exploration', of space. I doubt the humans had the ability to build spaceships as you posted.
PS: This is only my interpretation of what can happen. The spears of fire was in the intro to Fallout 2 so yes it can be considered not Fallout canon.
Hello, moron.
Ooh, and "Fallout Bible" is NOT a mix of design documents and some creative writing on part of Chris Avelonne?
Then tell me you little fuck why does Tim Cain think the war was waged with airbombs, not missiles? Maybe I'm missing something here?
I'll guess I have to spell it for you - "if it's not in FO1, it's not canon".
Now where did the "arrows of fire" come from anyway?
Kiss my ass, you fucking retard.
Holovid displays are not 3D-holograms, they are just color-TV screens. 'Holovid' is a buzz-word.
Desktop computers? Who the fuck told you they weren't dumb terminals?
Consoles? How is that any proof of them not using vaccum tubes?
Nevermind that vacuum tubes in Fallout are not your every-day glass bulbs - no, they're supervacuum tubes, as anyone who follows on scientific achievements will tell you. Now explain why would you need vacuum tubes AND transistors in consumer electronics.
Basil Zen said:
Ooh, and "Fallout Bible" is NOT a mix of design documents and some creative writing on part of Chris Avelonne?
Then tell me you little fuck why does Tim Cain think the war was waged with airbombs, not missiles? Maybe I'm missing something here?
I'll guess I have to spell it for you - "if it's not in FO1, it's not canon".
Now where did the "arrows of fire" come from anyway?
Kiss my ass, you fucking retard.
Holovid displays are not 3D-holograms, they are just color-TV screens. 'Holovid' is a buzz-word.
Desktop computers? Who the fuck told you they weren't dumb terminals?
Consoles? How is that any proof of them not using vaccum tubes?
Nevermind that vacuum tubes in Fallout are not your every-day glass bulbs - no, they're supervacuum tubes, as anyone who follows on scientific achievements will tell you. Now explain why would you need vacuum tubes AND transistors in consumer electronics.
DarkCorp
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
I was never to keen on the gunrunners having Micro Fusion Cells, regular energy cells, and energy weapons because how the hell did they get them. Mariposa was under mutie control, SAD (which wasn't even discovered or survivable, but I will bring it up for a possible explanation), West Tech might have been the only possibility but it had the hell nuked out of it. The only people who had a chance were the brotherhood members with their power armor and the vault dweller, (I carried a shitload of radaway and rad x after I died the initial times), but the vault dweller theory is still tough to believe.
Other ammunition can be reasonablely made as long as the makers had the ingredients.
Other ammunition can be reasonablely made as long as the makers had the ingredients.
APTYP said:
Agreed, more or less.
I tend to think along these lines:
Fallout 1 = Canon
Fallout 2 = Debatable (i.e. canon if it doesn't contradict Fallout 1)
Fallout Bible = Highly Debatable (Alot of it was made up afterwards to explain things that weren't properly thought out before)
Everything Else = Bollocks (Fallout Tactics & POS)
Briosafreak
Lived Through the Heat Death
Could you guys lighten up a bit? This type of discussion is what made the fallout boards at NMA interesting in the old days. Saint knows more about this than two thirds of people here together, Aptyp breaths Fallout, but no matter the times i had strong disagreements with Basil he does bring some interesting points to the discussion this time.
This place shouldn`t be about fighting for the sake of fighting, like unfortunately happens so many times on DAC.
So stop wasting your mortar rounds in hunting rabits, and let`s have an enlightned discussion like in the old days ok?
This place shouldn`t be about fighting for the sake of fighting, like unfortunately happens so many times on DAC.
So stop wasting your mortar rounds in hunting rabits, and let`s have an enlightned discussion like in the old days ok?
VaultDweller
First time out of the vault
Consoles could use subminiature tubes (they had glass envelopes but required no base and were soldered directly into a PCB) or nuvistors (tiny metal vacuum tubes, usually triodes, that were the last to develop in vacuum technology). Octal (or even noval) -based tubes would be definitely too big.
ozratwatching
I had a pretty long post that got swallowed. Crap. I'll have to figure out how to shorten it, so bear with me. I'll even mark places where I think I might be wrong to show it won't degrade into a fight. Of course, you'll have to say more than, "Fuck yourself, you fucking fuck, and fucking fuck off...just...FUCK!!! So fuck. And fuck the fuck up your fuck."
Consoles with microtubes: (WRONG?)
I didn't say they were an impossibility, I said an alternative was possible (actually, if you could tell me more about micro vacuum tubes). A look at the desktops shows that they weren't dumb terminals, otherwise they would be nothing but fancy TVs with keyboards and mice. They looked very much like modern desktops, which I noticed at the time because I expected tribal bandits and cowboys after the apocalypse, not Windows 95.
Bombs: (WRONG?)
I'd never heard any "airbombs" but I did see the screensaver. It was a screensaver and could have easily just played into the metaphor of nuclear destruction. As it so happens, "bombs" were the name used to refer to what we call missiles in the fifties, although more accurately "rocket-propelled" bombs or "rocket bombs."
Ron Perlman's speech in Fallout 2 says rockets.
Now, if Tim Cain said something post-release on a website I've never heard of in an old interview, that's something else but it doesn't make it canon.
If it's not IN Fallout 1, it's not canon, right?
I like Big_T_UK's idea better and think it's worthy of acknowledgement, since he differs. If Fallout 2 does not contradict, then it's canon. It's as good a guideline for any continuing story that changes hands repeatedly.
And really, Fallout 1 only talks about what is pertinent to Fallout 1: FEV and the War. Anything else is omitted. The real story is in Fallout 2 anyway.
So....
Space:
Like I said, the space race is almost as important as nuclear capabilities in the cold war, and the Cold War is a predominant theme in Fallout. Combining them is simple common sense. Since the reality diverged at the point when communists were dominating space, it is natural that an interest would have continued onward.
And there was a spaceship in Fallout 2. But Fallout 1 does not even mention space, so everything Fallout 2 has to say about space should be canon...which includes the capability for space travel.
On that note: Why is it so easy to accept bionic implants and artificial intelligence, two things I don't remember mentioned in FO1, but not a spaceship?
And I'll admit that Saint Proverbius knows a lot from my experience, but what he said about the Fusion Race and Space Race is part questionable and part wrong.
Consoles with microtubes: (WRONG?)
I didn't say they were an impossibility, I said an alternative was possible (actually, if you could tell me more about micro vacuum tubes). A look at the desktops shows that they weren't dumb terminals, otherwise they would be nothing but fancy TVs with keyboards and mice. They looked very much like modern desktops, which I noticed at the time because I expected tribal bandits and cowboys after the apocalypse, not Windows 95.
Bombs: (WRONG?)
I'd never heard any "airbombs" but I did see the screensaver. It was a screensaver and could have easily just played into the metaphor of nuclear destruction. As it so happens, "bombs" were the name used to refer to what we call missiles in the fifties, although more accurately "rocket-propelled" bombs or "rocket bombs."
Ron Perlman's speech in Fallout 2 says rockets.
Now, if Tim Cain said something post-release on a website I've never heard of in an old interview, that's something else but it doesn't make it canon.
If it's not IN Fallout 1, it's not canon, right?
I like Big_T_UK's idea better and think it's worthy of acknowledgement, since he differs. If Fallout 2 does not contradict, then it's canon. It's as good a guideline for any continuing story that changes hands repeatedly.
And really, Fallout 1 only talks about what is pertinent to Fallout 1: FEV and the War. Anything else is omitted. The real story is in Fallout 2 anyway.
So....
Space:
Like I said, the space race is almost as important as nuclear capabilities in the cold war, and the Cold War is a predominant theme in Fallout. Combining them is simple common sense. Since the reality diverged at the point when communists were dominating space, it is natural that an interest would have continued onward.
And there was a spaceship in Fallout 2. But Fallout 1 does not even mention space, so everything Fallout 2 has to say about space should be canon...which includes the capability for space travel.
On that note: Why is it so easy to accept bionic implants and artificial intelligence, two things I don't remember mentioned in FO1, but not a spaceship?
And I'll admit that Saint Proverbius knows a lot from my experience, but what he said about the Fusion Race and Space Race is part questionable and part wrong.
DarkCorp
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
I would follow more of Big T's explanation as well.
It is very important to focus on the word you use. Humans are capable of making space'shuttles, like the one the hubbies had'. Spaceships are usually referred to things in Star Trek and Star wars where humans have the ability to travel extremely long distances in space.
I agree that space weapons is hard to swallow. If we had the technology to build orbital weapon platforms, then why not the technology for space stations and maybe colonies. Heck, while we go down that slippery slope, we can throw in communist minded martians as well. Although the idea of communist maritans was used for sci-fi fifties, doesn't mean it makes the thought any more palpitable.
Like I said, I can understand the use of nuclear missiles or better yet, guided rockets with nuclear warheads, but the thought of turning Fallout into some space game is ridiculous to me.
It is very important to focus on the word you use. Humans are capable of making space'shuttles, like the one the hubbies had'. Spaceships are usually referred to things in Star Trek and Star wars where humans have the ability to travel extremely long distances in space.
I agree that space weapons is hard to swallow. If we had the technology to build orbital weapon platforms, then why not the technology for space stations and maybe colonies. Heck, while we go down that slippery slope, we can throw in communist minded martians as well. Although the idea of communist maritans was used for sci-fi fifties, doesn't mean it makes the thought any more palpitable.
Like I said, I can understand the use of nuclear missiles or better yet, guided rockets with nuclear warheads, but the thought of turning Fallout into some space game is ridiculous to me.
Basil Zen said:
Include the screenshot of a "desktop" in the next post so that I could use it as a reference.
Sure it does. That's the whole point of asking Tim Cain about these things - because it matters.
It's not canon because BIS didn't know what they were doing when they were working on FO2. Something doesn't make canon just because there is no factual contradiction, otherwise you can easily highjack a very loosely defined (as most games are) cyberpunk game into a fantasy realm by putting elves and dragons from Dimension X in a sequel, but most (sane) developers won't do that.
It's not a "real story" because it has time-travelling Chicago mobsters armed with antique Tommy guns in 23d century. The very core of post-nuclear mythos dictates the collapse of urban civilization after the large-scale nuclear war; gangster story however is inseparably linked to an urban civilization. That's only one example. I could talk about complex citystate politics in the wasteland, a gold currency standard, real-life weapons, and running cars, but I already did that months ago, and it's really self-evident.
Moreover, did you know that FO2 intro talks about the missiles while Tim Cain plainly said it wasn't the missiles but the bombers?
Maybe because it was a good idea NOT to mention space exploration? You know some things are best left unsaid. DarkCorp really said it in the post above - there's too many questions you don't want to answer.
Because it's impossible to accept bionic implants, and there's OH MY FUCKING GOD artificial intelligence in FO1 (check out The Glow).
Blade Runner said:
To put it short - the world design is too chaotic and inconsistent. In many cases the designers did 180 on the original 'retro-future', sometimes to appease the "fans" (the idiotic munchkin kind, sadly), and sometimes because someone incorrectly thought that "dystopic == post-nuclear".
APTYP said:
@ APTYP: So - and please don't flame me, 'cause I'm just being curious - does this mean you don't recognize FO2 as being a worthy sequel to FO? Does this mean you were disillusioned when it hit the shelves in 1998? I just wonder, because that would mean that all efforts to make some sort of sequel to FO have failed so far (meaning FO2 and FOT - FOBOS can't even be called an effort, right?). Wouldn't that make it very likely that the FO3 that was in development would have failed as well? Don't get me wrong, though, it just seems that way to me.
What about other games then? For instance, is the whole BG series consistent with the story and setting that was created in the first game? I never played BG, so I don't know, but is it? Isn't it somehow normal that mistakes will be made in sequels?
I don't want to derail this thread, so if you think I do, just ignore me, but I'm really curious about this. To me personally, this preoccupation with the canon seems to make it almost impossible to ever have a decent, consistent sequel to any game.
DarkCorp
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
APTYP said:
I think this is the reason why I liked Fallout 1 more than 2. If only Fallout 1 had more stuff do do huh?