Look at what I found

[alec]

If only Fallout 1 had more stuff to do huh?

My thoughts exactly. But I'm afraid that is the main reason why I like(d) FO2 better than FO. I can see your point, but FO2 has so much more to offer and the replayability is so much bigger. It's kind of weird to find out that some of you don't consider it to be canonical. Makes me feel like a heathen or something. I've been around these forums for quite some time now, but honestly: this I didn't know yet. I knew the opinions about FOT and had a hard time accepting them (although I soon realized they were right), but damn, now you guys are telling me that FO2 isn't canonical either.

I think my love for everything Fallout is slowly, but surely diminishing. Damn, maybe I shouldn't have read this thread...

 

[DarkCorp]

I thought Fallout 2 was a bit over teched. In the original, the brotherhood were the sole bearers of lost technology but now everyone seems to be carrying energy and gatling weapons.

Second, I just thought the Enclave were not very interesting. The objectives of the Unity however struck at the very heart of why we humans do what we do. Must peace always come from violence? Why can't we just simply put aside the difference in light of the greater good? There was a time I agreed with the master and even joined him, (alas the story ended there heh).

Lastly, the orginal feeling was lost. Sure there were lots to do but it all came back to the same old problems humanity always had. You had drug dealers, conflicts over gold, racial tensions, etc. I mean it would make for good story plots in other settings but a post apocalyptic world should have knocked some sense back into us huh?

I guess 'interesting', is subjective, but Fallout 2 lacked some of the originals charm.

 

[DarkCorp]

I wouldn't compare F2 to POS but it defenitely lacked some of what the original had.

Fallout 2 = I had great fun and replaid it as much as I did the original. Although there were elements that were a bit out of place, I still think the story was decent.

 

[Big T]

My thoughts exactly. But I'm afraid that is the main reason why I like(d) FO2 better than FO. I can see your point, but FO2 has so much more to offer and the replayability is so much bigger. It's kind of weird to find out that some of you don't consider it to be canonical. Makes me feel like a heathen or something. I've been around these forums for quite some time now, but honestly: this I didn't know yet. I knew the opinions about FOT and had a hard time accepting them (although I soon realized they were right), but damn, now you guys are telling me that FO2 isn't canonical either.

I think my love for everything Fallout is slowly, but surely diminishing. Damn, maybe I shouldn't have read this thread...

Don't get me wrong Blade Runner, I preferred FO2 to FO1, and for the same reason that you state. But at the same time i see that it doesn't exactly fit into the world of FO1.
Whether it is canon or not is not the question, the question is whether it is a good game, and FO2 is. It has more replayability and more to do and the story, as DarkCorp said, the story IS decent (talking deathclaws notwithstanding ).
The games deviate more from the original as they went along, but that didn't define how good they were. Tactics was an OK game because it was, would it have necessarily been better if it had followed canon? The same goes for POS, it sucks because it is a poorly made game, not because it breaks canon, it would still suck if it didn't.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Consoles with microtubes: (WRONG?)
I didn't say they were an impossibility, I said an alternative was possible (actually, if you could tell me more about micro vacuum tubes). A look at the desktops shows that they weren't dumb terminals, otherwise they would be nothing but fancy TVs with keyboards and mice. They looked very much like modern desktops, which I noticed at the time because I expected tribal bandits and cowboys after the apocalypse, not Windows 95.

Do you mean the ones that are the size of washing machines?

As it so happens, "bombs" were the name used to refer to what we call missiles in the fifties, although more accurately "rocket-propelled" bombs or "rocket bombs."

You do know that through much of the 1950s, bombs were the only way to deliver the nukes, right? "missiles" didn't come around until a little bit after that, and they certainly weren't ICBMs.

Ron Perlman's speech in Fallout 2 says rockets.

In Fallout 1, he says bombs, and even pops up a few pictures of planes dropping bombs.

Space:
Like I said, the space race is almost as important as nuclear capabilities in the cold war, and the Cold War is a predominant theme in Fallout. Combining them is simple common sense. Since the reality diverged at the point when communists were dominating space, it is natural that an interest would have continued onward.

Except, naturally, when the original setting was forged, the nice people that created it said that there was a nuclear power race and instead of space shuttles in the 1970s, you got fusion power.

On that note: Why is it so easy to accept bionic implants and artificial intelligence, two things I don't remember mentioned in FO1, but not a spaceship?

... Bionic implants?

Fallout had artificial intelligence as well. Ever heard of Zax?

 

[Basil Zen]

Not spaceships, then, space shuttles.

Special Cases for Canon:
Ah, Zax was in Fallout 1. I wasn't sure which game it appeared in. Was he the one that played chess and you needed an insane intelligence to beat him? I wasn't sure about that one.

But that still leaves the bionic implant question answered as, "Because I like it more." That's not an acceptable answer from an objective standpoint.

And as much as you may hate it, canon is what is in the game, not what the creators wish was in the game. Otherwise there would not be such a backlash against hairy deathclaws and we would have an insane EPA office. Oh, and talking raccoons.

Bionic implants. Subdermal metallic plates, stat boosting bionic implants, direct neural connections to teach you speech!

Bombs:
That picture of a plane dropping bombs was the Enola Gay, which means you have a 150 year old plane wiping out China? Like I said in my other post, it's just as likely a metaphor for nuclear destruction, just like the Los Alamos bomb testing picture. Take that one with a grain of salt. By the way, the first nuclear ICBMs, under the Minuteman program, were developed in the late 1950's.

Urban decay vs. Urban destruction:
The line of thought with dystopic vs. post-nuclear is the same line of thought with space vs. post-nuclear. It is a matter of taste, not compatibility, and if the elements exist for such forces to be, like the Mordinos and Salvatores, then they are products of their environment.

The source of urban decay is not "urbanization," it's "de-urbanization," or the collapse of organized social groups lost to the effects of poverty. Which is what you have in a post-apocalyptic setting.

You had drug dealers, conflicts over gold, racial tensions, etc. I mean it would make for good story plots in other settings but a post apocalyptic world should have knocked some sense back into us huh?

Intoxication, fornication, and xenophobia. The three basic elements in every society.

The fact that they were ignored in the first game made absolutely no sense to me once I saw them in Fallout 2. People will always make drugs from whatever they can find, people will always pay for sex, and people will always be wary of those who are different from them. Even, sadly, after a nuclear bomb turns the world into a lawless wasteland and everyone into little more than animals.

Personal opinion time:
To me, Fallout 1 was dramatically droll until "Lou" appeared, and without its great sense of humor I would probably have lost interest. It wasn't dark, it was merely depressing. But when the elements from Fallout 2 were introduced, I really felt like I was witnessing the vestiges of a lost world. But that's just me.

And I found it interesting that you thought the Enclave were boring. Try these themes on for size. Fallout 1 represented isolation versus unity as its primary theme, the Brotherhood, the Gunrunners, the Vault Dwellers. The enemy was the unifying force...very much like Communist Russia.

Then turn it around. The Fallout 2 theme was hatred of the Other, xenophobia. Broken Hills, Arroyo, Vault City, Modoc, San Francisco, NCR. This time the enemy wasn't unifying, it was paranoid about the wasteland...afraid of contamination. It was the United States of America and not only in name. It was us!

The Master's Army was a socialist one with a great, unifying ideal. The Enclave was a capitalist one driven by a desire to secure its personal interests.

I mean, when I saw who the badguy was, when I learned of the Enclave and heard the President give his speech, I fucking fell out of my chair and screamed, "Holy SHIT, this is just too damn much!"

Both games together would be enough to create one utterly complete and brilliant story.

Tech:
Everybody and their grandma had a minigun in Fallout 1, which was ridiculous enough. Who had plasma weapons? Gunrunners, the Master's Army, and the Brotherhood of Steel. The Supermutants as much ammo and technology as the BoS as well. If "too much tech" was an excuse in Fallout 2 it is also a worthy complaint for Fallout 1.

In Fallout 2, the only people with plasma weapons were Supermutants, the Enclave, the Brotherhood of Steel, and that Chinese dude...which puts them in the hands of almost the same number of people. The complaint that high tech weapons were easier to find is unfounded, and the reasons for these people having such powerful weaponry is completely related to their histories.

Computers:
Washing machine? You can't fit a washing machine on top of your desk.

For the computer, go to Broken Hills in Fallout 2, go to the shop in Downtown, and there's a desk. On the desk is a computer. You can do a look and it says, "A desk with a simple computer." There's also one in the Hole in the Den and in Fallout 1 I think there's one in Killian Darkwater's, another at the guard station in Junktown, another in the Hub in one of the shops. Also, in Redding, go to the rundown place where you find Frog Morton and in the back room far to the west I think there's a desktop computer.

I had a hell of a time finding these, but I don't have a website so I can't save and upload screenshots. I'm not really all that sure how to make screenshots either.

 

[DarkCorp]

In Fallout 2, the only people with plasma weapons were Supermutants, the Enclave, the Brotherhood of Steel, and that Chinese dude...which puts them in the hands of almost the same number of people. The complaint that high tech weapons were easier to find is unfounded, and the reasons for these people having such powerful weaponry is completely related to their histories....Basil

Everybody and their grandma had a minigun in Fallout 1, which was ridiculous enough. Who had plasma weapons? Gunrunners, the Master's Army, and the Brotherhood of Steel. The Supermutants as much ammo and technology as the BoS as well. If "too much tech" was an excuse in Fallout 2 it is also a worthy complaint for Fallout 1.....Basil

How can you explain me running into raiders that had plasma pistols on them. Or how can you explain caravans with Gatling weapons in F2? The only people that had gatling weapons were the gunruners in F1 I believe. As I have stated earlier, I never liked certain groups having access to technologies that doesn't seem to make sense. I guess the gunrunners might have had enough capital to buy anti-tank weapons and gatling guns (explanation by black market even though any semblence of that would have been destroyed by a nuclear holocaust and resulting nuclear winters), but they had no method of either manufacturing energy weapons or energy ammo to go with them.

Muties can have energy weapons because they ransacked Mariposa. The first group to breach Mariposas defense was Richard Greys group. Most of the group died or left while Grey recovered slowly in Mariposa. He then began dipping people and making mutants along with other super mutants.

The Brotherhood also had Gatling and energy weapons but that also takes the same explanation as above.

And I found it interesting that you thought the Enclave were boring. Try these themes on for size. Fallout 1 represented isolation versus unity as its primary theme, the Brotherhood, the Gunrunners, the Vault Dwellers. The enemy was the unifying force...very much like Communist Russia.....Basil

Then turn it around. The Fallout 2 theme was hatred of the Other, xenophobia. Broken Hills, Arroyo, Vault City, Modoc, San Francisco, NCR. This time the enemy wasn't unifying, it was paranoid about the wasteland...afraid of contamination. It was the United States of America and not only in name. It was us!......Basil

Isolation was what made the original fun. It was a bleak apocalyptic universe where you couldn't trust anyone but yourself. When I first recived my hunting rifle and leather armor I felt a tremendous sense of accomplishment. There were a few towns but nothing major in regards to places like Vault City, San Fran and the NCR.

The mutant army was interesting because they were the enemy. However at the same time, they were better good guys than most of the organisation and governments of today.

The whole idea of money grubbing capitalists, drug czars, incompetent senators and presidents, etc, are common stories now. They should have no big presence in a post nuclear world, atleast to me.

Intoxication and fornication also applies to the same explanation above.

 

[APTYP]

Not spaceships, then, space shuttles.

If you were to say "space shuttles!" in 1950's, you'd probably be corrected "you mean rockets?"

But that still leaves the bionic implant question answered as, "Because I like it more." That's not an acceptable answer from an objective standpoint.

Whoever said that is a moron and should stick to "System Shock" if he likes implants so much.

And as much as you may hate it, canon is what is in the game, not what the creators wish was in the game. Otherwise there would not be such a backlash against hairy deathclaws and we would have an insane EPA office. Oh, and talking raccoons.

Wrong. If that was so, then easter eggs (including pop-culture references) become canon too. Good luck explaining them in Fallout Bible.

As far as EPA and raccoons go, that's the job of the lead designers to filter out whatever they feel is inappropriate. When that control is very lax (as in FO2), you get heaps of "cool stuff" but little coherency, which may be okay for an action game, but not for a sequel to RPG of the Year.

Bombs:
That picture of a plane dropping bombs was the Enola Gay, which means you have a 150 year old plane wiping out China?

No, they're superbombers. My guess is that developers went with a more gritty and realistic approach to the 'retro-future' instead of going totally wacko with rayguns and whatnot.

Remember that United States still has a small fleet of intercontinental bombers, as both we and the USSR did throughout the Cold War.

Urban decay vs. Urban destruction:
The line of thought with dystopic vs. post-nuclear is the same line of thought with space vs. post-nuclear. It is a matter of taste, not compatibility, and if the elements exist for such forces to be, like the Mordinos and Salvatores, then they are products of their environment.

It's exactly the 'taste' that we're discussing here. Much like politics and gold standard may seem plausible, they hardly fit the bill of 'post-nuclear' setting which denies these things by accepted definition.

The fact that they were ignored in the first game made absolutely no sense to me once I saw them in Fallout 2. People will always make drugs from whatever they can find, people will always pay for sex, and people will always be wary of those who are different from them. Even, sadly, after a nuclear bomb turns the world into a lawless wasteland and everyone into little more than animals.

Intoxication:
Bars, Old Hub junkies and a drug dealer.

Fornication:
Cynthia, "Maltese Falkon" backrooms.

Xenophobia:
General disdain of mutants.


All check. Maybe you weren't paying attention?
If that's too mild for you, pick up Paul Brians' book on nuclear war in fiction, you'll find that there's plenty more stories without rampant sexual deviance for every one with it.
And if you're not happy with that, go play "Kingpin" or whatever.

Everybody and their grandma had a minigun in Fallout 1, which was ridiculous enough.

Okay, now you are just lying. How about some examples?

Although I think there's way too much shotgun shells and .223 cartridges, but that's more of the balance issue.

Who had plasma weapons? Gunrunners, the Master's Army, and the Brotherhood of Steel. The Supermutants as much ammo and technology as the BoS as well. If "too much tech" was an excuse in Fallout 2 it is also a worthy complaint for Fallout 1.

You're missing one thing, which is that "too much tech" is a relative term, and when people are saying it, they're looking back at FO1.
Another problem is that there was a logic in BOS and The Unity having a lot of old weapons and technology, although not the kind you'd expect to be spelled-out: they were armies. Army always has the best technology. It was really an axiom during WW2 and the Cold War.

Then you have vagrants with Gauss Rifles in FO2.

 

[Big T]

For the computer, go to Broken Hills in Fallout 2, go to the shop in Downtown, and there's a desk. On the desk is a computer. You can do a look and it says, "A desk with a simple computer." There's also one in the Hole in the Den and in Fallout 1 I think there's one in Killian Darkwater's, another at the guard station in Junktown, another in the Hub in one of the shops. Also, in Redding, go to the rundown place where you find Frog Morton and in the back room far to the west I think there's a desktop computer.

I think those are supposed to be cash registers/tills.
And on the topic of computers, technically you could point at an abacus and say "a simple computer".

 

[Basil Zen]

SONUVABITCH! Everytime I write a post, I get kicked out (copies and pastes this time). Fuck.

Dark Corp

How can you explain me running into raiders that had plasma pistols on them. Or how can you explain caravans with Gatling weapons in F2?

APTYP

Wrong. If that was so, then easter eggs (including pop-culture references) become canon too. Good luck explaining them in Fallout Bible.

There's your answer, Dark. Encounters are designed to kill you, they are a gameplay element, not a story element. Vault 15=no gatling/energy. Raider camp=no gatling/energy. They exist for the sole purpose of PHAT LEWT.

Revised. It's not canon unless it's in the game and part of the story. How's that one?

APTYP

You're missing one thing, which is that "too much tech" is a relative term, and when people are saying it, they're looking back at FO1.

I didn't miss it, but if someone poses that as an actual argument and defends it using something which is fallacious, then I can argue against it.

APTYP

Another problem is that there was a logic in BOS and The Unity having a lot of old weapons and technology, although not the kind you'd expect to be spelled-out: they were armies. Army always has the best technology. It was really an axiom during WW2 and the Cold War.

Think about the gunrunners? You know, those guys who sell you a plasma rifle? You have to expand your definition if the logic of Fallout 1 is to remain intact...and that includes commerce and trade.

The Shi are the Chinese equivalent of the Brotherhood of Steel. The Enclave are also the equivalent of the Brotherhood of Steel, an army maintaining technology through time. There are Supermutants with chain guns as well and police in the NCR. These are all armies.

But there are outliers. Red 88, NCR, and the Salvatores. In the first game, the gunrunners gained access to high-tech weaponry through trade and shared their tech with NCR. Red 88 is their spiritual successor, gaining access to Shi technology through trade. The Salvatores, too, gain access to laser weapons through trade.

The only ones left without plausible explanations are random encounters. In other words, PHAT LEWT. But whether or not random encounters and which random encounters should count as canon should be saved for a separate post, maybe in the same thread.

APTYP

Okay, now you are just lying. How about some examples?

It was sarcasm. A lead-in to the following comment where I say the only people in Fallout 1 with high tech weapons should have them, the same as for Fallout 2.

Who had plasma weapons? Gunrunners, the Master's Army, and the Brotherhood of Steel.

And then.

In Fallout 2, the only people with plasma weapons were Supermutants, the Enclave, the Brotherhood of Steel, and that Chinese dude...which puts them in the hands of almost the same number of people. The complaint that high tech weapons were easier to find is unfounded, and the reasons for these people having such powerful weaponry is completely related to their histories.

...Guess you had to be there.

Dark Corp

The whole idea of money grubbing capitalists, drug czars, incompetent senators and presidents, etc, are common stories now. They should have no big presence in a post nuclear world, atleast to me.

What is fantasy but universal themes seen through a concave lens? But if you don't like familiar themes in a familiar but unfamiliar setting, I won't begrudge you your tastes.

APTYP

If you were to say "space shuttles!" in 1950's, you'd probably be corrected "you mean rockets?"

I could care less what terms are used. My term was space ships. You can feel free to argue the point with whoever suggested shuttles, though.

APTYP

Whoever said that is a moron and should stick to "System Shock" if he likes implants so much.

Well, I thought it was you. But I reread and you said "impossible" and not "possible." But bionic implants are not 1950's sci-fi, while laser guns and space ships, or rocket ships if you like that term, are.

APTYP

No, they're superbombers.

It's the Enola Gay.

APTYP

Remember that United States still has a small fleet of intercontinental bombers, as both we and the USSR did throughout the Cold War.

The Buff's been retired, but I see your point.

It's exactly the 'taste' that we're discussing here. Much like politics and gold standard may seem plausible, they hardly fit the bill of 'post-nuclear' setting which denies these things by accepted definition.

Like bottle caps and a centralized commercial body? In a post-nuclear wasteland, commodities would most likely become currency, and gold is and always has been throughout time a commodity. One person's, "ridiculous" is another person's, "duh."

So, yeah.

APTYP

Intoxication:
Bars, Old Hub junkies and a drug dealer.

Fornication:
Cynthia, "Maltese Falkon" backrooms.

Xenophobia:
General disdain of mutants.

You mean the general disdain towards a group of rampaging, kidnapping murderers? It's not prejudiced if someone hits you with a super sledge...it's judging. One guy makes a rude comment about the Necropolis and there's a dialogue option about the BoS eating puppies and that somehow constitutes an accurate depiction of xenophobia? Not in the least. So, yeah, it gets ignored.

Oh, forgot about that backroom. I actually used that as an argument against someone who said Fallout 1 had no prostitution. You're right.

Okay, for intoxication, drinking beer like water with no ill effects except for stat changes is ignoring the dramatic role of intoxication, in my opinion. But the hub junkies are a good point, since unlike most Fallout communities, this is the only true example of a real urban area and what people hate most about New Reno is shown clearly in this city on a smaller scale.

So people out there who think there's no drugs in Fallout 1, there are. In the hub. In a room. In the veins of a guy asleep on the floor.

And that guy saying, "I got something for you" and selling you stimpacks is a dealer? I thought it was a bad joke.

 

[Basil Zen]

For the computer, go to Broken Hills in Fallout 2, go to the shop in Downtown, and there's a desk. On the desk is a computer. You can do a look and it says, "A desk with a simple computer." There's also one in the Hole in the Den and in Fallout 1 I think there's one in Killian Darkwater's, another at the guard station in Junktown, another in the Hub in one of the shops. Also, in Redding, go to the rundown place where you find Frog Morton and in the back room far to the west I think there's a desktop computer.

I think those are supposed to be cash registers/tills.
And on the topic of computers, technically you could point at an abacus and say "a simple computer".

Strange cash register with a mousepad and keyboard. There's a hand icon that, in the Fallout 1 demo, allowed you to download information off of it but that in the final two games doesn't do anything.

A lot like the big computers in the Vaults, in fact.

Completely separate note:

Holy crap. I was looking for a good website on space focusing solely on 1950's sci-fi, and there's about 50 movies that came out in 5 years with space in the title.

 

[Big T]

I said supposed to be, i wasn't saying they were entirely correct.

 

[DarkCorp]

In the first game, the gunrunners gained access to high-tech weaponry through trade and shared their tech with NCR. Red 88 is their spiritual successor, gaining access to Shi technology through trade. The Salvatores, too, gain access to laser weapons through trade....Basil

Uh, some minor problems with your post. First of all, the NCR didn't exist until many years after the world was safe and the Vault Dweller was exiled. If your trying to suggest Shady Sands had a hidden cache of high tech weapons than you are badly mistaken.

Second, who are the gunrunners going to trade from because I state once again, the BROTHERHOOD and the MUTANTS were the only factions that had access to lost technology as explained quite clearly above. The Brotherhood clearly were not the type to trade out lost technology to people and the mutants sure as hell ain't going to trade with them. Well if you follow POS's logic, then well maybe the mutants do trade with humans but POS is POS.

Third, (this part is subjective because of my view) the whole thing with the Shi and the Red 88 deal I also wasn't to psyched about. I As I said before, I wasn't too keen on high tech empires, some of which came from a suitcase??? The Shi descended from the crew of a stranded chinese submarine. I doubt americans would have joined with people who sent nuclear weaons at them.

PS: I brought up the space shuttle word because that is what the HUbs had outside of their base. Spaceships are usually regarded as massive vehicles capable of long distance space travel. However, like I also explained above, I never liked the idea that everything was teched out including how San Fran was.

 

[Basil Zen]

That doesn't explain why there's a cash register in the guard's station where no one actually buys anything.

Look, I'm going to be frank with you, and this isn't an attack or even directed at you. I know you have your own independent opinions, since you put forth the "if it doesn't contradict, it's canon" comment.

Instead of entering a discussion with all of the answers, we should enter a discussion with all of the opinions. If something disagrees with what you think, defend it, or consider that you may want to think something else.

I'll qualify your statement. Some of the computers could be cheap substitutes (video game resource-wise) for cash registers, but not all of the computers are in places of business. You are now faced with a dilemma. You could either deny everything I have said so you can maintain your opinions, or you can entertain the idea that post-apocalyptic California had desktop computers.

It is very much like a tape argument I had on IPLY's boards. Someone said all media storage was kept on large reel tapes as obviously seen in many of the old bases. I then pointed out that there are no large reel tapes in the BoS base. He was faced with a textual epileptic seizure in which he denied it all and left the conversation.

I thought bombing a country to hell made no sense. (With our historical supply of bombers, it really does make no sense.) But I could see, with a large fleet of bombers and a large enough nuclear payload, that it is possible to wipe out all of the major cities in a nation. And remember, we only see the US of the Fallout universe in pieces.

Now, that does not mean I ascribe to that view. It only means I have changed my thoughts on the matter enough to become open to alternatives. And I think everyone should. If you are defending your ideas by ignoring both obvious facts and obvious possibilities, then you are at fault. It's active ignorance.

I have seen people talk like their opinion is easily accepted by the entire world. Hell, I have seen someone complain about snow in Fallout Tactics, as if a nuclear holocaust miraculously raises the temperature of the world 30 degrees.

The funniest poster on these boards is Blade Runner, not because he has said anything worth laughing at, but because he is so eager to be accepted by what many people here think is right that he cannot imagine disagreeing with others. There is something seriously wrong when Blade Runner has a crisis over whether or not he can like Fallout 2 for reasons beyond it being just plain fun.

 

[Big T]

That doesn't explain why there's a cash register in the guard's station where no one actually buys anything.

That is a good point, though it may have been that the guards station was converted from a place of business into a guards station.

Look, I'm going to be frank with you, and this isn't an attack or even directed at you. I know you have your own independent opinions, since you put forth the "if it doesn't contradict, it's canon" comment.

That wasn't intended as a hard & fast rule, just something of a guide. Something can be contradictory to the setting without being mentioned in Fallout.

At the end of the day I don't know what they were intended to be, it may be that one person made the image (of the computer/cash register) and somebody else wrote the description. Part of the reason I thought it could be a cash register is that the "desk" that it is on looks somewhat like a store counter or bar.

You may well be right though about the desktop computer, we don't know the original intention and we don't know the power of the desktop computer. We don't really even know the size of it, as the desk could have held computer components.

 

[Basil Zen]

In the first game, the gunrunners gained access to high-tech weaponry through trade and shared their tech with NCR. Red 88 is their spiritual successor, gaining access to Shi technology through trade. The Salvatores, too, gain access to laser weapons through trade....Basil

Uh, some minor problems with your post. First of all, the NCR didn't exist until many years after the world was safe and the Vault Dweller was exiled. If your trying to suggest Shady Sands had a hidden cache of high tech weapons than your badly mistaken.

Only a slight misunderstanding on your part. NCR, or the New Californian Republic, was formed from the gunrunners and the many Southern Californian communities with help and protection from the Brotherhood of Steel. Shady Sands became the city on the map that is labeled NCR, one is a part of the other, but they are not the same.

Second, who are the gunrunners going to trade from because I state once again, the BROTHERHOOD and the MUTANTS were the only factions that had access to lost technology as explained quite clearly above. The Brotherhood clearly were not the type to trade out lost technology to people and the mutants sure as hell ain't going to trade with them. Well if you follow POS's logic, then well maybe the mutants do trade with humans but POS is POS.

Now this post is an example of ignoring obvious facts and possibilities as I said in my previous post.

Fact: the gunrunners sell you a plasma rifle and carry gatling guns and energy weapons. How do they get them?

Possibilities: trade and lost technology.

Fact: the Brotherhood of Steel trades with surrounding communities, like the Hub, for water. What do they trade?

Possibility: weapons and ammunition.

Third, (this part is subjective because of my view) the whole thing with the Shi and the Red 88 deal I also wasn't to psyched about. I As I said before, I wasn't too keen on high tech empires, some of which came from a suitcase??? The Shi descended from the crew of a stranded chinese submarine. I doubt americans would have joined with people who sent nuclear weaons at them.

I doubt humans would have joined with Super Mutants who rampaged over the state. But they did. Still, like you said, your opinion is subjective and I can't stop you from expressing it.

But over 100 years of peaceful coexistence is a long time, and the fact is, the Shi look like the inhabitants of Chinatown, which is much more than you can say about the Mutants of Broken Hills. How many 20 year old Jewish kids hate 20 year old German kids? And that's less than 60 years of peace. Also, the Shi and the locals are on cordial terms and the Shi are scientists, not warriors. In fact, they ask you to stop the Hubologists on behalf of the people of Chinatown, which means they are more than tolerant but allied.

PS: I brought up the space shuttle word because that is what the HUbs had outside of their base. Spaceships are usually regarded as massive vehicles capable of long distance space travel. However, like I also explained above, I never liked the idea that everything was teched out including how San Fran was.

All aircraft and spacecraft are classified as ships. A spaceship is specifically a spacecraft. Any vessel that carries passengers is also known as a ship. And since the Hubologist craft is a vessel designed specifically for carrying passengers into space, it is a spaceship. But that's only if you want to get into an argument over semantics.

 

[Basil Zen]

Look, I'm going to be frank with you, and this isn't an attack or even directed at you. I know you have your own independent opinions, since you put forth the "if it doesn't contradict, it's canon" comment.

That wasn't intended as a hard & fast rule, just something of a guide. Something can be contradictory to the setting without being mentioned in Fallout.

At the end of the day I don't know what they were intended to be, it may be that one person made the image (of the computer/cash register) and somebody else wrote the description. Part of the reason I thought it could be a cash register is that the "desk" that it is on looks somewhat like a store counter or bar.

You may well be right though about the desktop computer, we don't know the original intention and we don't know the power of the desktop computer. We don't really even know the size of it, as the desk could have held computer components.

Socrates said, "all that I know is that I know nothing." Arguably the fundamental first step in attaining wisdom. And making people question themselves gives me a raging hard-on, which is why I pose counterpoints to "accepted" truths, when "accepted" truth is dogmatic.

On Big_T_UK's note, discourse is the intellectual realm. Dogma is the realm of ignorance.

Of course, we are left knowing nothing except that we know less than we thought. And something being contradictory to the setting without being mentioned previously is a possibility, but then you need to define objectively what is part of the setting based on what you see in the setting.

We know the technology progresses aesthetically away from what we would expect in a 1950's setting. A look at the stealth boy or the power armor or the plasma rifle is a start. It's not aesthetically similar to anything from 1950's sci-fi (far less than, for example, the YK-## Fusion weapons are). Something to think about.

 

[Big T]

Socrates said, "all that I know is that I know nothing." Arguably the fundamental first step in attaining wisdom. And making people question themselves gives me a raging hard-on, which is why I pose counterpoints to "accepted" truths, when "accepted" truth is dogmatic.

On Big_T_UK's note, discourse is the intellectual realm. Dogma is the realm of ignorance.

Now i see where you get the "Zen" part.

What about "Basil"?

 

[DarkCorp]

One of the Brotherhood endings tell about how they dole out lost technology in small portions and only to those who they felt deserving.

In light of this and their activities in general, I seriously doubt they would trade amazingly powerful weapons to simple commoners like the hub merchants. Remember, it is also perfectly believable that all they gave out were small guns and ammunition like .223, 5mm, shotgun shells, etc.

Well I can't really explain my point better than this.

Only a slight misunderstanding on your part. NCR, or the New Californian Republic, was formed from the gunrunners and the many Southern Californian communities with help and protection from the Brotherhood of Steel. Shady Sands became the city on the map that is labeled NCR, one is a part of the other, but they are not the same. ......Basil

NCR was formed "after", the Vault Dweller brought about peace, not beforehand. Since you got the weapons from the gunrunners "before", beating the game, they couldn't have recieved them from the NCR pact.

 

[Big T]

One of the Brotherhood endings tell about how they dole out lost technology in small portions and only to those who they felt deserving.

In light of this and their activities in general, I seriously doubt they would trade amazingly powerful weapons to simple commoners like the hub merchants. Remember, it is also perfectly believable that all they gave out were small guns and ammunition like .223, 5mm, shotgun shells, etc.

The tech they gave out may not have even been weapons. It could have been water purification, medical, production etc.