Mafia 2

[zkylon]

I thought that everything that was era-related was done great (cigarette ads saying tabacco isn't bad for your health, the music, the clothes, black and asian people being separated in prison) but pretty much hated everything else. Stealth was a nice surprise, though, and worked decent.

I very much agree with everything said in Brother None's review.

 

[Ravager69]

Not going to repeat after Brother None, but suffice to say I pretty much agree with his review.

On a sidenote, I'll just add that perhaps the the thing with Vito is that he isn't supposed to be a likeable character. Perhaps he is simply to represent a typical organised crime member - a murdering, thieving asshole who cares only about himself in the long run and gets himself, his family and friends in fucking serious trouble.

 

[Sander]

Not going to repeat after Brother None, but suffice to say I pretty much agree with his review.

On a sidenote, I'll just add that perhaps the the thing with Vito is that he isn't supposed to be a likeable character. Perhaps he is simply to represent a typical organised crime member - a murdering, thieving asshole who cares only about himself in the long run and gets himself, his family and friends in fucking serious trouble.

Why would I want to play that kind of character?

 

[Multidirectional]

For the most part, well worded post Brother None, as usual, even if it seems I liked the game a bit more than you. One thing though - I cannot understand how can you dislike Normal driving mode and never try switching to Simulation, then complain about game's driving. Did not expect such mysterious behavior from you. I for one thought it was nice of them to include simpler driving mode for people who suck at more realistic driving mechanics. Simulation mode is still good, so I don't see how were they "giving into the man".

No, it's racist in the way it treats blacks. For instance, in one of the first missions you have to go steal a car in a black neighborhood. On the way over, all you hear in terms of in-car conversation is ripping on blacks. Then once you get there, the blacks just randomly start attacking and shooting you. It feels really racist.

How does it differ from any other "stepped into gang's teritorry" scenario in other games? It was explained on the ride there by Joe that there are black gangs operating in their neighborhoods. An Italian guy definitely stands out in that area. Not very realistic maybe the way they throw themselves at you immediately having barely given any warnings, but not racist. Just gamey, I'd say. I didn't get any racist vibe from the game at all.
It always baffles me how quick people are in calling something racist.

Why would I want to play that kind of character?

Are you also unable to enjoy watching a movie where the main character does a lot of things you don't agree with?

 

[zkylon]

Why would I want to play that kind of character?

Well, Vito isn't much of a stretch from GTA IV's Niko Bellic. It's expectable that mobsters aren't really the most likeable human beings. That doesn't mean they had to make them as shallow as they did, though.

 

[Ravager69]

Why would I want to play that kind of character?

Just a thought I had during my playthrough, once I realised how much I dislike Vito. It's a pretty weak thesis I agree, but there may be something to it.

Or simply they failed at creating a memorable main character.

 

[Sander]

How does it differ from any other "stepped into gang's teritorry" scenario in other games? It was explained on the ride there by Joe that there are black gangs operating in their neighborhoods. An Italian guy definitely stands out in that area. Not very realistic maybe the way they throw themselves at you immediately having barely given any warnings, but not racist. Just gamey, I'd say. I didn't get any racist vibe from the game at all.
It always baffles me how quick people are in calling something racist.

I usually don't think games are racist at all. But this game stood out to me - and it's not just that, it's the way they treat blacks throughout the game. When you're collecting...barber fees....the guy who tries to beat you up is a huge black guy, too, and the feeling I got from the way it was shown and the music was that I was supposed to think he was evil and trouble just from looking at him.

As for the gang situation - it felt odd. First you have the Italians in the car bashing blacks, and then when you get there the game only reinforces the stereotype.

It's a feeling I get from the game, it doesn't mean the creators are racist or the game is actually racist, it's just what I take away from it.

Are you also unable to enjoy watching a movie where the main character does a lot of things you don't agree with?

A movie is an entirely different medium. I don't have to empathise with the main character to enjoy it. To some degree I do have to do that to enjoy a game - or at least a game's story.

It's not about doing things I don't agree with, I play plenty of games where I do that (like, y'know, GTA) - it's about the way the story frames his decisions. The justifications are weak, and the character comes across as completely thoughtless.

Well, Vito isn't much of a stretch from GTA IV's Niko Bellic. It's expectable that mobsters aren't really the most likeable human beings. That doesn't mean they had to make them as shallow as they did, though.

Nah, Niko had character, he could justify his actions and he was tormented by what he did. Vito just goes around and does whatever Joe tells him to do.

 

[zkylon]

Just saying, Niko too was a thug that murdered with little remorse for no reason other than because he could. But it's true, Vito has no personality of his own other than being Joe's friend.

One thing that i hated about Mafia 2 and forgot to mention are those extended cutscenes showing Vito and Joe living the good life, doing business, etc. Like, you know, gameplay? Like they were showing all the good stuff you could've been doing if this was a non-linear game...

 

[Multidirectional]

Nico Bellic is definitely a better character than Vito, and also a lot more fun (kind of like the game he is in). But justifications for him doing things that he does are just about as weak. Hell, they've both been in war where they've seen terrible things. Nico points out that after he saw certain horrible things in war he figured humans don't really have a soul to worry about. They might as well have justified Vito's soulless behaviour similarly - he doesn't care anymore after the war. Vito's sister also points out he is changed before telling him she doesn't want to see him anymore. "All I've been doing since the war is killing people I've been told to kill" - which probably means he isn't really bloodthirsty but he also doesn't care enough to rebel. It's actually weirder to see Nico doing some of the things he does, him expressing every once in a while unwillingness to kill, than Vito, who doesn't even have these qualms.

 

[Brother None]

Not that this is a huge issue, there's a lot of great music in the game, but it's certainly not period correct.

Oh. Didn't really check. Are those songs in there? Fuck their music director for being lazy then.

One thing though - I cannot understand how can you dislike Normal driving mode and never try switching to Simulation,

Dislike it? I didn't say I disliked it. I said it's hysterical. But it's preferable for someone like me who doesn't enjoy long drives in the countryside.

I didn't get any racist vibe from the game at all.
It always baffles me how quick people are in calling something racist.

I think period racism is fine. They call the African-Americans moolies, it's all good. The African-Americans live in the slums, why not.

It's the way the game pushes everyone into a goddamn stereotype. The blacks never getting a line but immediately shooting is one thing. The Italian mama and abused wife being the only Italian women you see is another (the fact that all the other women are literally whores is quite another problem, this game's got issues with its sensibilities). Money-lender? Jew. Issues.

Are you also unable to enjoy watching a movie where the main character does a lot of things you don't agree with?

Way to miss the point. It's not the fact that he does unlikeable things, it's the fact that the game never gives a clear motivation for anything he does.

[spoiler:9695720739]Seriously, any time his dad comes up the man's described as a dead beat, Vito seems to have no love for him. Yet when "he killed him" is mentioned, Vito is ready to whip out his gun and take on two dozen heavily armed men. What? He's basically following the Dock workers so maybe his obedient puppy instincts are taking over, but seriously, what the hell, Vito.[/spoiler:9695720739]

Besides, you guys missed one of the main points, which is that Vito has absolutely no empowerment in the plot. And that's just ridiculous.

Well, Vito isn't much of a stretch from GTA IV's Niko Bellic.

Yes he is. GTA has never been good at main characters either, often leaving it up to us to come up with motivations or giving some weak ones. Niko's motivations are clear, he's driven by revenge and then caught up in a world of riches. Never loses sight of his goals tho.
His behaviour is then dug out as a war veteran. Similar to Vito? I guess, except that GTA IV actually bothers to explain these things to us and make us understand the character. Mafia II never does.

It's a feeling I get from the game, it doesn't mean the creators are racist or the game is actually racist, it's just what I take away from it.

It was made in the Czech Republic and seems to have very...Eastern European sensibilities towards women, black people and Jews. I can't help it, it just does.

 

[generalissimofurioso]

The Betrayal of Jimmy and Jimmy's Vendetta add-on content makes the game a bit more like GTA, but not in a very good way.

You get what's basically a free-ride mode with some missions to do, it's just that most of the missions are pretty much copies of main story missions and for some odd reason, every mission is timed and this encourages the player to beat them as fast as possible.

For a cover based shooter, this is very dumb.

Out of the 15 or so missions from Betrayal of Jimmy, there's like two that aren't copied and hilariously, they're the best ones.

 

[MutantScalper]

It's a big old open world, with love poured into it and meticulous detail in getting every detail right. And then what did they do with it? Absolute dick.

That's kind of how I feel about most of these GTA-type games. Did like Mafia 1 though, still one of my fav games. Hope these Czech dudes go back to the drawing board and come up with a whole new game, the sequels they make tend to be kind of shite while the originals are good.

 

[Buxbaum666]

Not that this is a huge issue, there's a lot of great music in the game, but it's certainly not period correct.

Oh. Didn't really check. Are those songs in there? Fuck their music director for being lazy then.

Yes. Rock'n'Roll/Rockabilly didn't really hit it off until 1954/1955 so a shitload tracks of from the game don't fit into the 1951 setting at all.

 

[SkuLL]

Haven't played the game yet, but all the 'racist' issues people have mentioned sound wholly acceptable for the period the game is set in. Maybe it is too much though, I've yet to play it and judge for myself.

Think about it though - these guys are uneducated macho gangster Italian-Americans. I can't really picture them as anything else but slightly racist/sexist. And the other stereotypes (jail rape, black neighbourhood, jew moneylender) all seem fair within the movie-like atmosphere the game is trying to create. You get just as many 'cheesy' stereotypes in virtually every Mafia movie from Hollywood.

Sure, some of the notions are radical for today's standard, but don't forget a lot of things were quite different back then and I, for one, am glad that the developers chose to face those notions rather than drown them in some politically correct bullshit.

It's like saying the game supports smoking by saying it's good for you, which is indicative of the backwards Eastern European thinking. No. A lot of people just thought like back then, 'even in America'.

 

[Sander]

Haven't played the game yet, but all the 'racist' issues people have mentioned sound wholly acceptable for the period the game is set in. Maybe it is too much though, I've yet to play it and judge for myself.

Think about it though - these guys are uneducated macho gangster Italian-Americans. I can't really picture them as anything else but slightly racist/sexist. And the other stereotypes (jail rape, black neighbourhood, jew moneylender) all seem fair within the movie-like atmosphere the game is trying to create. You get just as many 'cheesy' stereotypes in virtually every Mafia movie from Hollywood.

Sure, some of the notions are radical for today's standard, but don't forget a lot of things were quite different back then and I, for one, am glad that the developers chose to face those notions rather than drown them in some politically correct bullshit.

It's like saying the game supports smoking by saying it's good for you, which is indicative of the backwards Eastern European thinking. No. A lot of people just thought like back then, 'even in America'.

Again: that the characters think that is fine. It's how the game itself treats these minorities.

 

[Mettle]

So, anyway, basic bits:
- Period details. Great shit. Songs accurate to the year. Cars, presumably, all good. Architecture and clothing are great. Writing's overdone but what can you do.

Buick Skylark(Berkley Kingfisher)-53, BMW 507 (IMW 508)-56, Ford T-bird -55, Custom 300 late 50's.

Really annoyed me that they removed steering wheel support alltogether, specially considering the amount of driving you do. And not to mention the checkpoint system and slacker police. Your gangster buddies care more about red lights than the police do.

Way too easy and way, way too short. It was damn annoying to have Joe tell you to "Check in with Bruski now and then to see if he's got any jobs for you" just to hear him say that he's got nothing for you, ever. Same with Derek I think. It feels like they've cut out so damn much content just to cheat us out of more money with DLC's that should've been part of the game from the start. I feel cheated out of 30€ having payed 40€ for the game.

 

[Ravager69]

Again: that the characters think that is fine. It's how the game itself treats these minorities.

I got the racist vibe during the mission where Joe got drunk and you had to pick him up from the bar.
[spoiler:8a1c62d6ae]Joe shoots a black barman and all Vito does is get frustrated, pop him in a trunk and throw in the car crasher on the dump. The barman really looked like an honest, hard working fella, but is treated like shit. Dunno if it is because he is black or not, but they could choose a white italian guy for that role[/spoiler:8a1c62d6ae]

 

[SkuLL]

I got the racist vibe during the mission where Joe got drunk and you had to pick him up from the bar.
[spoiler:591aa389f3]Joe shoots a black barman and all Vito does is get frustrated, pop him in a trunk and throw in the car crasher on the dump. The barman really looked like an honest, hard working fella, but is treated like shit. Dunno if it is because he is black or not, but they could choose a white italian guy for that role[/spoiler:591aa389f3]

What you're saying: "A black guy got killed, how racist. They should have killed a white guy instead, then I wouldn't be getting bad vibes from it."

 

[PainlessDocM]

the music is not even from the correct era..

Eh? This is set right after the war, you do know that right? You can even see the old war posters here and there.

 

[JaW]

This game shows US in fifties and everybody knows how did it look like in there, so if this game is racist so what? Is it forbidden to show racism in America?

Oh and the game is really very racist, which I guess is also explained by it's Czech writers (hey! That was totally racist of me)

It was made in the Czech Republic and seems to have very...Eastern European sensibilities towards women, black people and Jews. I can't help it, it just does.

I don't know where did you get this "All Eastern Europeans are racist" thing, but you should stop generalize. And yes, it sounds racist from you.