Mafia 2

[Sander]

This game shows US in fifties and everybody knows how did it look like in there, so if this game is racist so what? Is it forbidden to show racism in America?

Again: missing the point. That the main characters act racist is not the problem. The problem is how they portray other people.

They use only stereotypes. Blacks are only portrayed negatively. That's not a realistic view of the fifties, that's a racist view of the fifties.

 

[JaW]

This game shows US in fifties and everybody knows how did it look like in there, so if this game is racist so what? Is it forbidden to show racism in America?

Again: missing the point. That the main characters act racist is not the problem. The problem is how they portray other people.

They use only stereotypes. Blacks are only portrayed negatively. That's not a realistic view of the fifties, that's a racist view of the fifties.

I can't comment on the game, because I didn't play it, but from what you described I can't say it sounds racist.
Evil big black guy? Aggressive black gang? Sorry, but no. Racist America from fifties ? Hell, yes.

 

[Sander]

I can't comment on the game, because I didn't play it, but from what you described I can't say it sounds racist.
Evil big black guy? Aggressive black gang? Sorry, but no. Racist America from fifties ? Hell, yes.

You really have to play the game to get a good feel for how they portray everything.

 

[Starwars]

I am in agreement with Sander here. I'm not a prude myself and I have no problem with the characters being racist per say as it would be part of the setting. I don't have a problem with that.

But they didn't hit a good note with it, it feels extremely... wrong many times. It jumps out at you.

 

[13pm]

Okay, I won't add much, but after finishing the game I felt I've been tricked. WTF? Was it a game really?

Bad design is one of the problems with this game. Not an action game for sure. 60% of actual gameplay time (which is to say just about 40% of all the time ingame) is just driving around.

Combat system is quite stupid and the game design for it is totally unrewarding. They teach you to hide and shoot the moles poping out for the whole fucking game and then, in final mission, enemies suddenly start to run onto you. And when you're in cover it's really hard to kill a dude which is just spinning around your nose. And if you're not hiding you're dead already.

I can't get why game designers think it's okay to put the collectible items in railway game where you cannot return to the locations you should find the collectibles. Loading specific chapters doesn't count.

Not to mention the stupid tutorial part about changing the plates. Every time I lost the cops and came up to the repair shop, the cop car appeared there. I did about 15 attempts to change the plates. That was annoying.

Or the final part where designers somehow remembered about the fact they've designed a big city that pretends to be a sandbox and make you earn money to repay the debt. Crashing the cars or robbing the shops. Reaaaaaally exciiiiting. Pfff.

Storyline is mostly pathetic. Full of cliches (Goodfellas, Godfather). Some parts are just plain stupid (e.g. prison). Everyting in the plot is either predictable or stupid.

The other problem with this game is that it pretends to be a drama movie. But you need a good plot for drama, good characters. Here is none.
GTA IV, for example, is mostly grotesque, hence inconsistencies and bad story lines just not hurt the experience that much. But hell, Mafia 2 does want to be a fucking epic gangster drama movie. It's so serious with those stupid plot lines that makes you laugh.

I liked the visuals. Prison is made nicely as for the visual part. Cars, clothing, architecturein the city - all this is really good. But all this feels like Potemkin village. Behind the cute decorations there's emptiness. That was what really spoiled my experience. I couldn't feel the athmosphere. It's just dead.
Cops are retards. You hit the guy behind the cop and then run before him, he won't react. Once the cop car chasing my character fell into the pool near the house. What do you think? The cops really enjoyed sitting in the car in the pool and made no attempts to change the situation. They don't run out of the cars shooting. Sometimes they do go out, but really slow.

Same are the other citizens. Every hotdog seller somehow knows your name. People taken out of the cars try not to return their property, but better die in hand-to-hand fight. It's not like GTA, they all do the same here.

Scripted events like people doing things in the buildings add nice touches, but that doesn't help.

 

[mor]

a game trying to portray the 50's without some racism will be a huge FAIL or "politically correct".
nevertheless i seen no racism at all, the only scene that stood up was the docks barber shakedown, probably because the third closest person is black after which you get a kinda abrupt cut scene with a black guy.
everything else is normal, the usual gangs, the usual classes for that time and nice black bartender who got pop'ed by chance, btw notice in the back room (though where you drug his body) his service picture framed, he was a war hero...


anyway great game so far, very refreshing compared to gta.(kinda annoying that everyone who sees its asked if its GTA)

 

[Brother None]

a game trying to portray the 50's without some racism will be a huge FAIL or "politically correct".

You kids are giving me a headache.

Last time: it's not about the characters being racist, it's about the game being racist. You're black? Well then you must be aggressive. Irish? Aggressive and stupid. Jewish? Money-lender. Italian woman? Either stereotypical momma or abused wife.

We're not going to keep going over this, it's not rocket science.

semenbottlesmug

SemenBottleSmug-fail, I hadn't played the game yet when I made that comment, and wasn't aware of the exact years it spanned (dunno if it was in the media, I haven't followed this game for shit).

I don't know where did you get this "All Eastern Europeans are racist" thing, but you should stop generalize. And yes, it sounds racist from you.

Oh it's very racist (except I'm not talking about a racist, I'm talking about a geographical area, so it's prejudiced, but not racist). But it's also true.

Ain't that right, fas ist?

 

[SkuLL]

I reckon it's because of the movie-like atmosphere they tried to achieve. Obviously they're capturing some of the old clichés from period gagster movies, but it's far from slandering or generalising a whole racial group. There's NOTHING racist about having a Jewish money lender. Sorry.

Of course, if the game repeatedly equates being Jewish with being a money-hoarder, perhaps it could be seen as racist. But from the examples you have given, all I see is a bunch of people picking on a few insignificant notions, confusing 'non-PC' with 'racist'.

Also:

I don't know where did you get this "All Eastern Europeans are racist" thing, but you should stop generalize. And yes, it sounds racist from you.

Oh it's very racist (except I'm not talking about a racist, I'm talking about a geographical area, so it's prejudiced, but not racist). But it's also true.

Ain't that right, fas ist?

What the fuck?

 

[Sander]

I reckon it's because of the movie-like atmosphere they tried to achieve. Obviously they're capturing some of the old clichés from period gagster movies, but it's far from slandering or generalising a whole racial group. There's NOTHING racist about having a Jewish money lender. Sorry.

No, there isn't. However, it *is* racist if *every* ethnic group is treated like an insulting stereotype. And there are basically no exceptions in the game.

 

[Brother None]

But from the examples you have given, all I see is a bunch of people picking on a few insignificant notions, confusing 'non-PC' with 'racist'.

Awesome. So in your expert opinion, would the fact that all the women you meet in this game that are not family of Vito are, in fact, prostitutes, not be mildly sexist either?

I find this whole process of counter-PCness fascinating. People have kind of lost touch. Sometimes something is just racist, and there's no PCness in sight.

 

[mor]

Last time: it's not about the characters being racist, it's about the game being racist. You're black? Well then you must be aggressive. Irish? Aggressive and stupid. Jewish? Money-lender. Italian woman? Either stereotypical momma or abused wife.

We're not going to keep going over this, it's not rocket science.

its also not a discovery channel, its a game, plot driven and with greater emphasis on cinematic and immersion than the usual.
so i dont understand how such a common technical as exaggeration and how many perceive and most likely to relate to that time popular cult is such hard to understand concept.

they also did every thinkable stereotype for the jail chapter, so what fucking what!
or are you one of those who i seen before complaining about how rockability didnt hit the mainstream until 1655 not 1951, again so what! its fun.

Awesome. So in your expert opinion, would the fact that all the women you meet in this game that are not family of Vito are, in fact, prostitutes, not be mildly sexist either?

this a mob! game you are in little italy and then you are going to a strip club! what do expect to find nuns?!

 

[SkuLL]

I can't argue here, because like I said, I only played the demo. So naturally, any discussion about what the game 'feels like' or 'says about races' is pointless as I can't confirm/deny.

But it smells to me like a bunch of people using the word 'racist' in a completely wrong sense, is all.

By the examples people have used here, one could just as well dismiss almost every Hollywood movie and almost every game as being racist, simply because they fail to provide the 'token non-stereotype'.

Cliché? Sure. Bad writing? Sure. Cheesy stereotypes? Sure. But racist is a special word describing a certain quality of though that I'd like to reserve for things that are truly racist.

 

[Brother None]

so i dont understand how such a common technical as exaggeration and how many perceive and most likely to relate to that time popular cult is such hard to understand concept.

'cause making everyone a stereotype makes for really believable characters, right?

You set up a believable atmosphere in which women and minorities are indeed suppressed. Then you make believable characters by showing how individuals from this group react to that situation. You do not make believable characters by showing the prejudices are true, that's idiotic.

Because that's what the game is showing us. That the people from the minorities that were stereotyped at the time fit the stereotypes of the time. If that isn't a textbook definition of racism, I don't know what is.

I can't argue here, because like I said, I only played the demo. (...) But it smells to me like a bunch of people using the word 'racist' in a completely wrong sense, is all.

Yeah, thanks for wasting our time.

 

[SkuLL]

Awesome. So in your expert opinion, would the fact that all the women you meet in this game that are not family of Vito are, in fact, prostitutes, not be mildly sexist either?

Sure, if that's how all the women in the game are portrayed, it is a bit sexist, isn't it? Though I distinctly remember there were regular women walking the streets in the demo... So unless they replaced each and every female character with a whore and then repeatedly pointed out to you that all women are whores, then no, it doesn't make the game sexist.

Vito's an uneducated gangster. He hangs out with his family, with other gangsters, or he's on business in the streets. It doesn't leave much room for a female role-model to counter-balance all the whores his life must be saturated with

I can't argue here, because like I said, I only played the demo. (...) But it smells to me like a bunch of people using the word 'racist' in a completely wrong sense, is all.

Yeah, thanks for wasting our time.

You're being difficult - I warned a few times that I haven't played the game but wanted to hear everything about it. And that I was just wondering what made it so damn racist, as I have never seen a racist game before.

Whatever, it's down to semantics now. You guys must be right - the damn ignorant/racist/sexist Eastern European writers have gone and made a racist game.

 

[Brother None]

Though I distinctly remember there were regular women walking the streets in the demo...

I said "meets"

Vito's an uneducated gangster. He hangs out with his family, with other gangsters, or he's on business in the streets. It doesn't leave much room for a female role-model to counter-balance all the whores his life must be saturated with

Yeah. Except that it doesn't, as the women running cathouses were often in power positions. Not to mention the wives of mafia members weren't always subservient dumb-asses meant only to get slapped every now and again...oh wait that's exactly how the game portrays them.

Fair is fair, it's a male-dominated world in the Mafia, but this game just gets stupid about it. Mafia 1 wasn't much better.

But hey, it figures since it was made by a bunch of racist misogynists from Eastern Europe. Typical Eastern Europee, really.

 

[Sander]

Sure, if that's how all the women in the game are portrayed, it is a bit sexist, isn't it? Though I distinctly remember there were regular women walking the streets in the demo... So unless they replaced each and every female character with a whore and then repeatedly pointed out to you that all women are whores, then no, it doesn't make the game sexist.

Vito's an uneducated gangster. He hangs out with his family, with other gangsters, or he's on business in the streets. It doesn't leave much room for a female role-model to counter-balance all the whores his life must be saturated with

Again: things like this would be fine if it happened occasionally. I can justify there not being any other women in such a game.

It becomes a problem when it happens consistently to every ethnic group in the game without any counter-balancing, at all. It's the whole of the game, not just incidents.
Which is why to see this, you should be playing this game.

 

[mor]

i dont see any point of arguing about it any more, if you think that the story of mafia or more specifically Italian mafia, played through 1940s, with many religious nuts, roller coaster ride to fame(ups/downs) bachelors life between the mob meeting and the strip club should have more strong female characters (contributing to the story), you are welcome to it.

as for the rest of the complains about the stereotypical mother etc and whatever other exaggeration i just think its made the game more live and colorful, again you are entitled for your opinion.


now does anyone else having fun playing the game or its just me ?!

 

[Sander]

i dont see any point of arguing about it any more, if you think that the story of mafia or more specifically Italian mafia, played through 1940s, with many religious nuts, roller coaster ride to fame(ups/downs) bachelors life between the mob meeting and the strip club should have more strong female characters (contributing to the story), you are welcome to it.

as for the rest of the complains about the stereotypical mother etc and whatever other exaggeration i just think its made the game more live and colorful, again you are entitled for your opinion.

The game is more colorful and fun by only using racist and sexist stereotypes instead of creating actual characters?

 

[mor]

anyway, what was your favorite part so far?

 

[Sander]

i actually thought they had a very nice characters but you are welcome to go play GTA IV with its one female char and legion of whores...
or was it that romantic gameplay you missed

Sense, you make none. GTA did not treat minorities like stereotypes. Mafia 2 does. All you can do is say "but that's fun" - well, fine if you feel that way, but excuse me if I prefer characters with some depth instead of prejudiced stereotypes.