Meet the devs - Meet Todd Howard

[Vault 69er]

What Oblivion mainly pushed bounderies in is graphics. And even then, it wasn't that much of a leap.
Take the distant land feature. Sure, it's great.. but a year after Oblivion's release, dedicated unpaid modders found a way to create distant land in Morrowinds engine. With all the bells and whistles of it's cousin.

In any case, Oblivion took 2 steps forward and 5 steps back.

 

[Maximous]

All Todd has to say is "TURN-BASE" and that's all.

 

[Brother None]

It is undisputibly a landmark game. It doesn't come close to the deep storyline of say "planescape: torment", and it dosen't have the leveled feel of say Diablo 1 where you really could feel the fear of going down the dungeon if you weren't ready for it. But the sheer amount of effort that the development team spent is remarkable

I'm sorry, but something does not become a landmark game just because the development team put a lot of effort into it. The amount of effort doesn't matter if the result is a failure.

Unless you want to argue Wild Wild West is a landmark film.

 

[Vault 69er]

What I'd like him to say is "Hey guys, this is what we have. These are our overall plans. What do you think? What do you like and dislike? Let's work together."

Would that be so bad? Sure, no developer is going to follow what every fan says, but Fallout fans are still a resource that Bethesda refuses to tap.

 

[TheVaultKeeper]

It is undisputibly a landmark game. It doesn't come close to the deep storyline of say "planescape: torment", and it dosen't have the leveled feel of say Diablo 1 where you really could feel the fear of going down the dungeon if you weren't ready for it. But the sheer amount of effort that the development team spent is remarkable. For God's sake there are over 30000 voice recordings in that game! Not everyone will prefer voice over text but no one can deny that it's pushing bounderies! And that in itself is worthy of admiration.

Now you're just being intentionally stupid.
First of all, how are voice recordings of true merit in an RPG?
Secondly, you do realise that Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines had more voice recordings, far more varied voices and far far far better dialogue than Oblivion, a full 2 years before!

Not to mention that fully voiced games were considered innovative in 1993, the era of Day of the Tentacle.

Ahh.. "Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines" that was a nice game. Yes I agree with you there, it had absolutely suberb voice acting that was very well written. It had more voice acting that oblivion? I don't know - I heard Todd say that oblivion had around 36.000 voice recordings in it. Bloodlines had a lot of voice but that much? Hmmm - I don't know.

Anyway - the point I'm trying to make about oblivion (as a response to FeelTheRads as well) is that no other 3d game before have had so much content, been so good looking, been so vast and still had an so overall high standard.

Yes - Gothic is a good game but the combat system and game engine is just fatally flawed.

Yes - Bloodlines is remarkably athmospheric, and I really like the game, but it was a completely unplayable bug filled mess in version 1.0. Plus it was a system hog and still didn't look that good.

The thing about oblivion is that it combines so much content and still manages to have it all a very high standard. That's what makes oblivion a landmark. Not that it has the best story, or best voice acting or even best graphics. It's that it combines so much and make it fit together.

 

[Brother None]

Oblivion combines so much content and still manages to have it all a very high standard. That's what makes oblivion a landmark. Not that it has the best story, or best voice acting or even best graphics. It's that it combines so much and make it fit together.

Another silly definition of landmark there. Something is not a landmark for rehashing what someone else already did, often better, and combining it into a bigger game.

 

[TheVaultKeeper]

Oblivion combines so much content and still manages to have it all a very high standard. That's what makes oblivion a landmark. Not that it has the best story, or best voice acting or even best graphics. It's that it combines so much and make it fit together.

Another silly definition of landmark there. Something is not a landmark for rehashing what someone else already did, often better, and combining it into a bigger game.

Well - there's where we will agree to disagree in that case. Because I think it is.

Do you know which is the highest honour an athlete can be bestowed? The athletes themselves almost always agree that the highest possible honour is to be awarded the Olympic gold medal in pentathlon or decathlon.

Those are the events in which you will compete in five, or ten, different sports and the one that has the overall greatest score wins. By winning one of these events you will have proved that you truly are a complete athlete.

It may make for a quirky comparison but in my mind it's the same deal with oblivion. It may not be that best at everything, maybe not even the best at anything, but it is an overall achievement that is pretty damn hard to beat.

 

[Brother None]

It's not a quirky comparison, it's completely invalid.

Matrix is a landmark film by combining bullet time and Asian theater techniques. Films that combined elements from the Matrix with other special effects, afterwards, including Matrix 2 and 3, are *not* landmark films.

 

[TheVaultKeeper]

It's not a quirky comparison, it's completely invalid.

Matrix is a landmark film by combining bullet time and Asian theater techniques. Films that combined elements from the Matrix with other special effects, afterwards, including Matrix 2 and 3, are *not* landmark films.

Definitions of "landmark" from dictionary.com

"An event marking an important stage of development or a turning point in history."

"an event marking a unique or important historical change of course or one on which important developments depend; "the agreement was a watershed in the history of both nations"

There is no mention of that a landmark *has* to be "revolutionary". It can also be, according to the dictionary definitions, an "important stage of development" or "an event on which important developments depend".

So by those definition oblivion is definitely a landmark in my mind, since it shows how far the genre's come and will be a game that future games will have be measured against. No matter if people will like it or not, the game has made a significant impact.

You are of course free to disagree with all this but I think I've made my view of it all pretty clear.

 

[Brother None]

There is no mention of that a landmark *has* to be "revolutionary". It can also be, according to the dictionary definitions, an "important stage of development" or "an event on which important developments depend".

Amusing, you do realise that for something to "develop" it has to be significantly different or adding to what existed previously? And what do we call that? "Revolutionary".

Heaping a lot of things on top of each other does not add anything new or great, hence it is not an "important stage of development". Again, Matrix was an important stage of development, Matrix 2 and 3 weren't, despite the fact that they took what Matrix had and added some more zany special effects to it. According to your definition, combining something and adding more of it makes something a landmark.

 

[Vault 69er]

Definitions of "landmark" from dictionary.com

"An event marking an important stage of development or a turning point in history."

"an event marking a unique or important historical change of course or one on which important developments depend; "the agreement was a watershed in the history of both nations"

There is no mention of that a landmark *has* to be "revolutionary". It can also be, according to the dictionary definitions, an "important stage of development" or "an event on which important developments depend".

So by those definition oblivion is definitely a landmark in my mind, since it shows how far the genre's come and will be a game that future games will have be measured against. No matter if people will like it or not, the game has made a significant impact.

You are of course free to disagree with all this but I think I've made my view of it all pretty clear.

How is amalgamation an important stage of development?
That's all Oblivion really is. Too many concepts mismashed together in an attempt to sell itself to everyone.

Yeah, that's an important step alright. Backwards.

 

[Bernard Bumner]

This appears to be an argument that nobody is going to be willing to admit they've lost - however obvious it might be to anybody else.

As for the original point of the thread; I'm not particularly disappointed by that interview, because it was never remotely likely that Todd was going to suddenly spill his guts and spoil the big reveal on Fallout 3.

Once again, he talked in fairly general terms that don't give any particularly cause for optimism or concern, because what he's said is very ambiguous. If he's using Batman Begins or Superman as examples of franchises that remained faithful to their source, but were reinvigorated and innovated, then fine, as long as that isn't used a pretext for recontinuity or wholesale revision.

To me, it would be very easy to take what he said either as a genuine appeal for a fair crack of the whip, or a cynical attempt to preempt critics. At this point, positivity or negativity is all about perception of the company and their past products, and really has nothing to do with Fallout 3, because we still know so very little about it. I suspect that what he said will not - and possibly wasn't meant to - change anybody's mind about how they perceive Bethesda's development of Fallout 3.

In the end, what does it matter? The proof of the pudding is in the eating; Fallout 3 will succeed or fail on its merits, as far as fans are concerned...

 

[monsharen]

Someone mentioned buying beer to one another earlier. I would love to buy Mr Howard a beer and chat about the franchise and the business surrounding it. I think that would be the best medium to exchange ideas and talk about the setting. I would most certainly be the wrong person for it, but boy would I enjoy it. Maybe Avellone is thirsty?

Anyway, I am having sushi in an hour. Just give me a call...

 

[TheVaultKeeper]

I agree with some of the above speakers that the discussion is spiraling slightly out of control.

It seems that the whole point of the argument has become if oblivion was a great game or not, and if it was revolutionary enough. Some of us obviously don't like it, while I did. That's perfectly fine, everyone is allowed their opinion.

All I'm asking is that you don't keep on bashing bethesda like if it's some sort of sport, and that the nerdiest *best* gamer is he who can bash them hardest....

I mean come on, constructive criticism please.... just shouting "AHHHH everything bethesda has done lately sucks, fallout 3 will suck, it doesn't matter what they say or do they will ruin Fallout, wasteland rules!" is not going to help...

 

[Mani]

On the other hand, just shouting "AHHHH everything bethesda has done lately rules, fallout 3 will rule, it doesn't matter what they say or do they will save Fallout, oblivion rules!" is not going to help either...

Landmark my ass.

 

[TheVaultKeeper]

On the other hand, just shouting "AHHHH everything bethesda has done lately rules, fallout 3 will rule, it doesn't matter what they say or do they will save Fallout, oblivion rules!" is not going to help either...

True, and you won't see me doing that either. The simple fact is that for the time beeing we don't know what fallout 3 will be like, and that's all there is to it. In other words - it would be unwise to say that it WILL suck or that it WILL be great.

In the meantime the best attitude, in my mind, is simply to keep your hopes up and not come down on bethesda as soon as they open their mouth. Benefit of the doubt people... benefit of the doubt.....

 

[Tom_Sawyer]

Ok I have lurked here for a long time on and off.

I must say that that is very rare for leopard to change its spots.

"By gamers for gamers" That was the key line for Fallout 1 and 2. The original team went of their way to sound out what the gamers wanted in both themselves and the fans.

Now heres a company that baleets those that dissent, will not speak about the game, and has yet to say Hey gamers what do you want?

Anyone recall Master of Orion, Master of Orion 2? Well such a great franchise surely could not fail lets make Orion 3. Oh yeah lets stop listening to the beta testers, lets stop answering the fans, and lets ship this puppy.

How about Ultima 9, NOW theres a great ending to a great series.

When did plain pudding that is good enough for everyone to eat replace a great steak? Sure not everyone likes steak, but for those that do they are willing to pay for it. Hand them pudding and watch it rot on the shelf as diners demand a refund or refuse to spend.

Fallout 1 and 2 was meant to be rated M. It is a gritty future in which mankind has cindered 97 percent of the Earth.

Bethesda put the mirror away. Stop admiring yourselves and take a note from those that really want to play the game. Put the emphasis on eye candy second to a DEEP storyline that makes you think and want to explore every option. Not endless cookie cutter dungeons that look the same, NPC's with as much background as cheap paint, and a ho hum theres a brigand dressed in FULL DAEDRIC ARMOR that he must have picked up at the local flea market.

Is it no wonder that most serious RPG'rs still have the classics on thier computers. Take some of that money you gained from Oblivion and hire some of the original team for a 1 shot deal

Now that would rock lol

 

[Dracon M'Alkir]

Time for a crash course in Dark Legacy's "READ BETWEEN THE LINES PSYCHOLOGY!"

Time to find out what Todd Howard really said to all of us!

I obviously replayed the games, and Fallout 1 remains the truest inspiration for what we’re doing, but again, it can be hard to get at the “soul” of it, because of its aging.

"I played Fallout 1, and for the life of me, I couldn't get into it, no matter how hard I try. I just can't see what you crazed lunatics see in that old piece of shit."

It’s much harder then you think, because it’s certainly a game that has grown in its legacy as time goes on, it’s hard to sift through what its “essence” or “soul” is, because it’s aged, and people often discuss it in nostalgic tones. So I look to things like the first game’s manual. The fiction and tone of it. There is also a great, great section in the Fallout 1 hintbook

"Since I couldn't fucking understand the game, I decided to try to see what the manual said about it, since manuals are always a good idea behind the underlying game mechanics such as the controls, and the... story.. and the..... weapons? And stuff."

I obviously looked at all the PA movies – Boy and his Dog, Mad Max, Strangelove, etc. Though I find the actual PA movies end up fairly generic, and don’t capture what is special about the Fallout world, and that’s not the world that you end up with, but the world of 2077 that gets destroyed, and then built upon. I became far more interested in the “pre-war” world, then the “post-war” world.

Since the manual didn't exactly help me 'get into' the game, I decided to watch these movies you lunatics are always raving about as being 'falloutish'. After watching them, I still didn't have a damn clue about what you guys think is so fucking awesome about such an old shitty RPG.

I also looked a lot at my own reactions to other franchises that have had long gaps and were reborn/updated again in another era. Mostly movies, and such, The Lord of the Rings, Superman, Batman, etc, etc. Now, I’m a recovering comic book junkie, so I’ll probably be throwing around a lot of superhero references,

In any case, since I have no god damn clue about what Fallout really is, I'm going to base it upon the only material I can actually understand; COMIC BOOKS. That's right, I'm going to include stuff from like Spiderman, Batman, and the League of Heroes into Fallout 3! YEAH!

I wish I could give you real, true, insight into what we put into our games, and this is not me just trying to sell you, or smooth you over,

But the truth is that I never understood Fallout, and I never will.

And I wish you knew all the faces of the 80 people busting ass to make this game great. The secret superstars you don’t know of like Istvan Pely, Mike Lipari, and Scott Franke.

Those guys actually understand what the hell is going on, I don't.

Your opinions do matter, and we want them. We are influenced by what gets said about us on these forums, in the press, the letters we get and so forth.

Yeah, I actively lurk NMA, and I read on in sheer horror that you guys still love this crap. It's like watching a

a car crash you just have to watch sometimes, lots of violence and parts exploding, but there is something awesome in its power.

:rolleyes:

To say we care about Fallout would be an epic understatement.

WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING FUCK ABOUT IT.

We’ve left no stone unturned in trying to find Fallout’s “soul”, but those decisions are ours, not yours. I just hope you give the game a look and decide if that soul is there for you.

I still haven't found the soul/got into it yet; but we will make something based on comic books/what we think looks like Fallout, and hope you like it.

You may not agree, you may be too cynical to look at it objectively anymore, but I’m going to guess that you’re reading this forum because Fallout really does matter, and it does mean something far more to you then just “a game.” So for my final superhero reference, I leave you with this quote from Christopher Reeve; insert Fallout:

Please don't hate us. It's not our fault.

There you have it folks.

 

[Karak]

Take some of that money you gained from Oblivion and hire some of the original team for a 1 shot deal

Now that would rock lol

they already missed out on that...even though they left no stone unturned exploring the 'soul' of Fallout...

 

[Vault 69er]

Anyone recall Master of Orion, Master of Orion 2? Well such a great franchise surely could not fail lets make Orion 3. Oh yeah lets stop listening to the beta testers, lets stop answering the fans, and lets ship this puppy.

Heh. I still have Master of Orion 2 on my system and still play.
MoO3 can kiss my ass.

I really, really don't want to end up saying the same about Fallout 3 (well apart from having Fallouts 1 + 2 on my system.. they'll never be without a home! )