Microsoft has bought Zenimax/Bethesda

Discussion in 'NMA News and Information' started by Kilus, Sep 21, 2020.

  1. Mr Fish

    Mr Fish Snug Rubber

    Sep 11, 2010
    Yeah I don't want dungeons all over the place either but I do not enjoy walking from one place to the next in FNV. Going from Goodsprings to Primm there's like a few gecko's, some coyotes, maybe a powder ganger or two and that's it. Just a whole lot of nothing. Just walking and walking and walking and walking. It's tedious. I'd rather just get to the point quicker with a world map.
     
  2. Money4U

    Money4U First time out of the vault

    53
    Oct 22, 2015
    Well it's a desert after all.. But Obsidian did amazing job making it less boring than actual desert lol

    About the news.. well it can't get much worse than it actually is now for TES and Fallout series from Bethesda so that's that..
     
  3. Atomic Postman

    Atomic Postman Vault Fossil

    Mar 16, 2013
    And this isn't the first time you've ignored half of what I'm saying to just talk past me and monologue the same platitudes that everyone here has had carved into their brains for literal years as if it's not a given. So let's see what I said originally.

    "Bethesda is good at putting 10-15 minute exploration loops in their world, but the issue is of course is that is literally all there is."

    Use your big brain here. What could I possibly be referring to with "10-15 minute exploration loops"? Could it be the Ruins/Draugr Dungeons/Raider Camps that are literally the only thing to do in Bethesda worlds?

    "The distinction for me has always been that in a vacuum of writing, Bethesda's worlds are better."

    "Conversely, walking the Mojave in Vegas felt like an arduous chore. Empty walking between my destinations (which I really wanted to get to and enjoyed) so I could speed over to the next faction or questline."

    "I distinctly remember enjoying the minute to minute lonely wandering and picking over ruins in Fallout 3, but feeling nails start pressing into my frontal lobe whenever there was any written content"


    Here I have drawn a clear division between story/writing content (of which Vegas is inarguably full of) and open world exploration content. My point, clearly, is that the Mojave largely acts as connecting tissue to reach the next bit of writing whereas the Bethesda worldmaps are basically entirely comprised of exploration short gameplay loops in an attempt to compensate for having barely any worthwhile written content.


    Quite a lot assuming your setting isn't rural Wyoming. Even then, you can also have Wasteland era structures too for that type of gameplay. Newly constructed Wasteland faction areas of many kinds (Forts, outposts, chem-labs, sci-fi agri-farms), vast animal nests/burrows, et cetera. The fact that it's retrofuture America also gives you good reason to have some interesting industry going on, like how rural West Virginia in 76 has a gaudy, gigantic retrofuture raised train system splitting through the forests resulting in these huge industrial support columns spiking the landscape acting as nests for animals, (dead) settlements, watchposts or booby trapped raider stashhouses. Even ignoring the gameplay content it is interesting to look at because its absurd sci-fi infrastructure that you'd literally see suggested in a "World of Tomorrow" magazine and reminds you that Fallout was a retrofuture and not just retro. There is plenty of opportunity there. Kind of like how Van Buren's version of the Grand Canyon would have been an industrialized futuristic mining operation pre-war turned post-war cannibal hideout, whereas in real life it's just an empty pit of nature.

    This is something I agree with to a pretty large extent, however I disagree in part that it's not due to the writing. As I said in the original post, what makes this problematic design is that it's literally all there is to do in Bethesda worlds. If you've done ten dungeons it starts to wane because you're also aware that this is the meat and potatoes of the game, especially when even the written content results in you doing the same stuff as exploring. If you have New Vegas's level of quality written content spread around the map, the game would massively boosted then by exploration having these fun gameplay loops dotted and threaded into the world. I don't know if you've ever been involved in tabletop, but the balance between dungeoneering and roleplaying is a very well weathered and respected concept.

    Additionally, Bethesda's dungeons whilst satisfying/fine on a gameplay level also lack any contextual writing. The Raiders have as much character as a pack of wolves, if you applied this type of design into a world with as strong writing as Vegas, you could give these dungeons far, far better context. A good example of this is when Vegas actually does this in the Honest Hearts DLC, most people would say the best part of that DLC is the Survivalist, and ultimately in terms of gameplay it's about the exact same as some of the more mediocre/weaker Draugr caves in Skyrim. Or in the base game with some of the Vaults like 22 or 11. It just doesn't do it nearly enough nor as well in terms of the dungeoneering design.


    You're aware of course that real life Boston and Washington DC are far, far larger than what is presented in Fallout and have far more buildings? This is a very strange argument. Yes the 3D Fallouts have a smaller map scale than 2D Fallout's maps, but 3D Fallout is still a miniature version of these regions.

    Here you go doing the monologue thing addressed to nobody at all. Wow, Bethesda's worlds are theme parks? Haven't heard that one before, how fascinating.

    I'm aware doing this wasn't in the scope of Vegas's development which is why I said my own thoughts on it were an empty platitude because of course it'd be ideal to combine both. You also wouldn't have to do "insane" writing to make them flavourful. 76 for being an objectionable, lore-breaking all around terrible game actually does a decent job at giving flavour to its endless dungeons because it is literally the only thing it can do. Even something like writing up a podunk raider-tribe with simple internal drama that reacts in logs to you bringing down their hideouts elsewhere would be fine, or tying in these dungeons into larger storylines (NCR armories, Legion stashouses etc etc)

    Nobody said that it was, who is this addressed to?
     
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  4. Cobra Commander

    Cobra Commander Water Chip? Been There, Done That

    943
    Dec 6, 2016
    between locations in the old fallouts was also pretty boring (in fact, I always have a high Outdoorsman to avoid encounters as much as possible), so I don't care about that and I always use fast travel when possible.
     
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 1
  5. Mr Fish

    Mr Fish Snug Rubber

    Sep 11, 2010
    Between locations in Fallout is just a dot on a map though. Click and wait. In FO1 the map isn't that big and in FO2 you get a car.
     
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 1
  6. Jabberwok

    Jabberwok Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?

    408
    Jun 7, 2008
    I don't understand why people keep blaming Obsidian for the walking. Have they ever played an Elder Scrolls game? NV is one of the lesser offenders when it comes to boring walking. Most of the time you can literally see your next destination from your current one. Even the walk from Novac to Vegas has several story-relevant stops along the way. If you hate walking so much that you can't stand 2 or 3 minutes of it between locations, then blame the people who invented the format.
     
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 5
  7. TheGM

    TheGM The voice of reason

    Aug 19, 2008
    I'll show you. this is Nevada.

    People like Atomic Putz want it littered with Dungeons every 3 yards because "muh exploratory experience" and are offended by the majestic flatness of the state. Fallout 3 on the other hand gave you the experience of walking up hills that have hills on the side of hills. not to mention getting jumped by leveled enemies constantly to lengthen ENHANCE your journey experience between the the multitude of dungerinos.
     
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 1
  8. Atomic Postman

    Atomic Postman Vault Fossil

    Mar 16, 2013
    Yes, of course I must love levelled enemies because I wish New Vegas had more gameplay orientated content. It's also l i t e r a l l y impossible for a desert to ever be interesting or have any content, didn't you know Fallout is just like real life? More of these substantial arguments, totally not cowardly responses and absolutely brutal tear downs if you follow TheGM.
     
  9. Jabberwok

    Jabberwok Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?

    408
    Jun 7, 2008
    Hmm, maybe it is because there are fewer dungeons. There are already tons of enemy encounters, so I don't really get that complaint either. Not to mention, more of them are from actual factions, rather than just generic raiders. Plus cazadores. Plenty of difficult enemies to fight.

    TBH, I think it's just because a bunch of people don't like deserts. Which I don't get, because I love them. And also Fallout, which has always been full of deserts. And if I could remove all dungeons from all Bethesda games, I would.
     
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 1
  10. Atomic Postman

    Atomic Postman Vault Fossil

    Mar 16, 2013
    Nah, I like deserts and I think the setting of NV is great but that doesn't mean that a lot of the misc locations could be more involved. As for the enemy encounters, I wouldn't use enemy faction ones as a strong point considering they're barely any better than Interplay Fallout's random encounters which at the very least had the justification of theatre of the mind for travelling rather than a Caesar's Legion hitsquad teleporting in front of you in the 3D landscape.
     
  11. TheGM

    TheGM The voice of reason

    Aug 19, 2008
    Post shit opinions and expects to not be mocked for them, Atomic Putz manifest. Nevada shouldn't look like Nevada, it should look like Italy.

    You know what would really enhance New Vegas three fold? A Zombie covered Supermarket Dungeon, in fact put 8 of them on the map. I find the lack of Super Mutants to really hinder my Fallout experience as well so we need more of those. Hell they need their own Super Market/School/Power Station Meat Bag Base dungeon and by their own I mean like 5! I need to be jumped by Ant-Roaches and Raiders every 2 seconds to get me some of that sweet sweet Fallout 4 FPS shooting! I need to be distracted with meaningless hole in the walls to stick my head in and go WOW I'M 'SPLORING NOW!
     
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 1
  12. Atomic Postman

    Atomic Postman Vault Fossil

    Mar 16, 2013
    Yet you're provably incapable of arguing against them and instead post like a hysteric teenage girl on twitter, what a shocker
     
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 1
  13. Jabberwok

    Jabberwok Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?

    408
    Jun 7, 2008
    This should not surprise you, but I like original Fallout's encounters.

    But I suppose you are allowed to have a different opinion. :D
    Though I cannot promise not to mock you for it, when next we meet.
     
  14. Atomic Postman

    Atomic Postman Vault Fossil

    Mar 16, 2013
    Sure, and I also enjoy them. I also assume you understand why the format of random encounters should be different in 3D vs 2D
     
  15. TheGM

    TheGM The voice of reason

    Aug 19, 2008
    One doesn't argue against shit opinions. You mock them until those who share them stop or get better ones. When one posts "desserts is flat needs more dungies" do you honestly expect one to not disregard the author as a smooth brained simpleton who is riddled with behavior disorders and downing ritalin by the fistful?
     
  16. Jabberwok

    Jabberwok Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?

    408
    Jun 7, 2008
    Maybe? No promises there.

    Come to think of it, I like the Legion assassins, too. They make the war feel personal. If your specific complaint about them is the teleporting, that is understandable, but then you need to be looking far beyond New Vegas. That's a general issue with / feature of all Beth games. Frankly, I never thought the format was a good one for Fallout. I always always wanted a worldmap with random encounters and premade zones, like Mount & Blade (pretty much identical to old Fallout but 3D).

    But if big, open world full of loading cells is what we get, enemies teleporting in for random encounters is the result. It happens all the time in Skyrim, and all of their other games.
     
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  17. Atomic Postman

    Atomic Postman Vault Fossil

    Mar 16, 2013
    Cool ;^)
     
  18. TheGM

    TheGM The voice of reason

    Aug 19, 2008
    You sure? you seem like it. You even messed up the quote there. might need to take a little break from NMA if the Bethesda purchase is getting to you this bad.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2020
  19. Golbolco

    Golbolco It Wandered In From the Wastes

    108
    Jul 12, 2015
    Agreed, Fallout's format was always meant to emulate a tabletop RPG and thus much of the design philosophy is tailored around that. The later games have not remained faithful to this goal, which has been detrimental. Open world games are not always necessary.
     
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 3
  20. TheGM

    TheGM The voice of reason

    Aug 19, 2008
    I can accept the Legion Assassins/NCR Ranger kill teams way more than those guys in FO3, Talon Company? like who the fuck are these guys and who is paying them? Or the Bounty Hunters, these fucks don't even have farms but somehow gathered enough people together to get a Bondsmans Guild going.
     
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 5