Dr Fallout
Centurion
Oblivion... isn't... well okay, some of the side quests were pretty good.
Mods/GECK will fix it. Nope.
- Thread starter DirtyOldShoe
- Start date
Well, even a bad RPG finds sometimes an interesting quest.
mrchaos
Super Orc
I remember this one quest where the objective has to find a missing person and then player becomes involved in a hunting game (the hunting the most deadliest prey type of game). One of the few memorable quests in oblivion in my opinion.
Spacemunkey
Vault Senior Citizen
There were a lot of fun quests in Oblivion; the entire DB/Thieves Guild, Sheogorath's quest, Mephala, and Sanguine off the top of my head.
Dr Fallout
Centurion
I love the Dark Brotherhood quests. Not only were they challenging but they caught the feel of a stealthy assassin perfectly. Not so in Skyrim.
Meh, none of Bethesda's games had a great story really. Games just don't really ever have great "stories" but what these games in particular have are compelling worlds. Its strange to me when you complain that the story of Fallout 4 is bad because lets be honest, they're all pretty mediocre.
I'd say that the world in Fallout 4 is second least interesting next to New Vegas (As far as charm and interest goes) the best worlds imo were Fallout 1, Fallout 2, Morrowind, and Oblivion, in that they had a sense of intrigue about them that lasted throughout the game. That's really all I have to say about story.
As far as gameplay goes though...I think Fallout 4 is truly a well designed game in that department. I love the way they manage to make junk useful to pick up, and the gameplay loop of upgrading weapons and armor. The whole junk, weapons, and armor economy in this game is awesome and the feeling of learning how everything works is fun. Do you really think that Fallout 3 and FNV played better than 4 or are you just attached to them?
A few things in closing:
1) This thread is mainly about the modding potential of this game so why so much concern over story? You finish the story, its done, if you want more story, then mods add that.
2) The addition of voiced player characters is not a bad thing, you don't need to use this feature in your own mods, you could just have the NPC talk as they normally would then exclude the player character's dialogue. It will be exactly the same as it was in the past.
3) The settlements feature opens some doors for some interesting mods. Theres alot of potential for the player to really make their mark on the world especially if you made them more useful.
I'd say that the world in Fallout 4 is second least interesting next to New Vegas (As far as charm and interest goes) the best worlds imo were Fallout 1, Fallout 2, Morrowind, and Oblivion, in that they had a sense of intrigue about them that lasted throughout the game. That's really all I have to say about story.
As far as gameplay goes though...I think Fallout 4 is truly a well designed game in that department. I love the way they manage to make junk useful to pick up, and the gameplay loop of upgrading weapons and armor. The whole junk, weapons, and armor economy in this game is awesome and the feeling of learning how everything works is fun. Do you really think that Fallout 3 and FNV played better than 4 or are you just attached to them?
A few things in closing:
1) This thread is mainly about the modding potential of this game so why so much concern over story? You finish the story, its done, if you want more story, then mods add that.
2) The addition of voiced player characters is not a bad thing, you don't need to use this feature in your own mods, you could just have the NPC talk as they normally would then exclude the player character's dialogue. It will be exactly the same as it was in the past.
3) The settlements feature opens some doors for some interesting mods. Theres alot of potential for the player to really make their mark on the world especially if you made them more useful.
As much as it deserves some of the hate for it being the first Bethesda game where they started to decline, Oblivion was still filled with lots of interesting quests and what not.
Alkuam
Lurker
Maybe in a year or two we'll get a nice surprise from obsidian like we did with FNV. The writing in F4 was total shit.
Dr Fallout
Centurion
Agreed, in fact what made me hate the game even more was that it had so much potential. Clearly we saw some talented writers working in the game, and yet the rest of the game was so shitty.
ZigzagPX4
The Swiftness of the Ranger
The Elder Scrolls is an excellent series of open-world adventure games based heavily around exploration. That seems to be the only part of them that has stayed consistent - the RPG elements of the series, not so much. It depends on perspective, really. The majority of Bethesda's fanbase wouldn't mind playing a Bethesda game in which there is no main overarching plot, and much like Minecraft, the gameplay is just endless exploration, but I know most NMAers would be immensely bored with a game like that.
The crowd of gamers that plays games mainly for the story is a small and unnoticed one, I should remind. It's no surprise that the consensus at Bethesda was to shift the game towards the ever-so-popular open-world exploration genre. At this point, I doubt the next TES will have much effort put into it, because the ultimate culmination ended with The Elder Scrolls Online, and it wouldn't be crazy to assume that it will now go downhill from here.
ESO didn't gain as much popularity as Skyrim did not because people realised MMOs aren't all that great. It was because ESO didn't have mods. A co-op Bethesda game with mod support is their winning formula, and I'm not sure if they've realised that or not just yet.
If I recall correctly, and I'm not usually very good at recalling correctly so take that as you will, there was a significant shift in the positions at Bethesda during the development of Oblivion and Fallout 3 in that a lot of people left, a lot of new people came in, and a lot of devs got moved about. That might have had something to do with it.
The crowd of gamers that plays games mainly for the story is a small and unnoticed one, I should remind. It's no surprise that the consensus at Bethesda was to shift the game towards the ever-so-popular open-world exploration genre. At this point, I doubt the next TES will have much effort put into it, because the ultimate culmination ended with The Elder Scrolls Online, and it wouldn't be crazy to assume that it will now go downhill from here.
ESO didn't gain as much popularity as Skyrim did not because people realised MMOs aren't all that great. It was because ESO didn't have mods. A co-op Bethesda game with mod support is their winning formula, and I'm not sure if they've realised that or not just yet.
If I recall correctly, and I'm not usually very good at recalling correctly so take that as you will, there was a significant shift in the positions at Bethesda during the development of Oblivion and Fallout 3 in that a lot of people left, a lot of new people came in, and a lot of devs got moved about. That might have had something to do with it.
Dr Fallout
Centurion
Who knows? All I know is that good writers made great sidequests and fuck the main story.
Legobrick100
First time out of the vault
What kind of custom-content developers are you? Any good modder finds a way to work around limitation; to work with what they have. That's what makes mod-development, and machinima, and all manner of custom content special. And if you ask me, the only thing that made baseline Fallout 4 bad, was not the dialogue system itself, but what was actually in the dialogue system. Fallout 4's quests CHOSE to be the way they are; linear, kill-focused, repetitive. just like quest mods can choose to be the way they want. Deep, full of choice, or whatever they want. (In fact, I would argue a fair bit of us knew the main game wouldn't be good, but dealt with it because we were in it for the mods; which accounted for more than half of the time I spent in NV.)
It's really simple, actually. I've already found a work-around for the dialogue system, even. Literally the only thing that will hold back the modding community are people like you who are so quick to give up on it.
Sincerely, a Frontier mod developer.
http://www.falloutthefrontier.com/
It's really simple, actually. I've already found a work-around for the dialogue system, even. Literally the only thing that will hold back the modding community are people like you who are so quick to give up on it.
Sincerely, a Frontier mod developer.
http://www.falloutthefrontier.com/
RangerBoo
Resident Schizo Poster
I respectfully disagree Legobrick100. If you have been around here or took time to read some of our post then you would know that there are many problems that we have with Fallout 4 and why we think its bad. Voice protagonist, bland voice acting, breaking and pissing on the lore, terrible and dumb quest like Kid in a Fridge and Cabot House, poorly implemented settlement building, radiant quests, bad AI, terrible dialogue, terrible and intelligence insulting story, ect.
This is the problem I have with modders. You only look at what you can mod not the game or story itself. You modders believe that Bethesda gave you a bunch of paints and a canvas to make a masterpiece when really they gave you a canvas full of holes and paint that is past its due. I am really starting to hate modders. They are the ones who constantly give excuses to Bethesda and fix their messes and Bethesda knows it too. Modders shouldn't fix a broken game free of charge and Bethesda shouldn't rely on modders to fix their mess. Its not and shouldn't be their job!
This is the problem I have with modders. You only look at what you can mod not the game or story itself. You modders believe that Bethesda gave you a bunch of paints and a canvas to make a masterpiece when really they gave you a canvas full of holes and paint that is past its due. I am really starting to hate modders. They are the ones who constantly give excuses to Bethesda and fix their messes and Bethesda knows it too. Modders shouldn't fix a broken game free of charge and Bethesda shouldn't rely on modders to fix their mess. Its not and shouldn't be their job!
Brivoo
Powered by Radiant AI
Plugging made into an art.
Modding won't fix the base game; the lack of choices and the linear story that you mentioned will all still be there. Even things like quest mods are just a holiday from the base game, and I'm going to find very little motivation to play them when it means having to go back to this poor excuse of a game.
Legobrick100
First time out of the vault
Of course it won't fix the base game, but it will provide quality content in it's place. Just like it did for NV. The gameplay was fine. But the quests and dialogue were not. I have not heard anyone complain about the sandbox, worldspace, or gameplay. Just the quests and dialogue.
Oh, I assure you I look at the actual content I'm provided. Problem is, I'm not very critical of others, regardless of who they are. That is why I leave it to others to criticize; it isn't for me. Besides, I already told you I spend more time in games because of mods, rather than the base-content. 500 hours in NV, 300 of it because of mods.
But the way I see it, none of the things you mentioned ruin the chances of having quality quest mods. In fact, the only thing you mentioned above that effects modding is bad AI. But even that doesn't necessarily ruin it. (And I must point out radiant quests are just repeatable quests, which were present in 3 and NV.)
Am I excusing Bethesda? No. But I'm not going to criticize them. (Namely because if I criticize someone, it just hurts me more.) But I AM saying that I would PREFER to get 500 hours out of the game, thanks to mods, just like I did for NV.
And frankly, I don't see a single thing that makes this circumstance any different from NV. NV had it's fair share of problems too, which modders easily worked around.
MercenarySnake
Kept you waiting huh?
When you have to add gigabytes after gigabytes of mods to a game that in reality can't be fixed with this simple modding you speak of...it just makes you wonder why you don't just play a game that doesn't need mods to be fun or good and at the same time you get to save up on valuable hard drive space.
Actually I don't think many or even any of the people participating in this thread is a modder, I might be in a modding team and made a few small-ish mods but even I don't consider myself a modder because I don't have the skills and mindset modders do. I am a tester at heart, not a custom-content developer
.And even I never said in this entire thread that it will be impossible to make good mods for Fallout 4, I said that to turn Fallout 4 into a good RPG it will take a lot of effort, time and probably a dedicated team of skilled modders
.
Brivoo
Powered by Radiant AI
I dunno, NV's issues had a lot more to do with the gameplay, and even then it wasn't unfixable. I use Project Nevada a lot and their fixes to the iron sights and other parts of the gunplay have become essential to me.
Whilst it's true that with a team of voice actors you could feasibly fix Fallout 4 as well, it'd take a lot more effort and you'd probably end up with lines that don't even sound like the character or having to pay professional VA's.
Legobrick100
First time out of the vault
That is not the case. It is a matter of custom content that can tailor a game to a person's preferences. Different people with different preferences, game developers LITERALLY can't satisfy them all, so it's up to the modders to make the game into what they want.
It doesn't matter what other game I would play, regardless of quality. If it's moddable, I want to mod it. I want to create this stuff, this content, seeing as how that's the only way I can make myself even vaguely useful. I ENJOY making content for people, and so far, games like Fallout are my only way of doing that.
Actually I don't think many or even any of the people participating in this thread is a modder, I might be in a modding team and made a few small-ish mods but even I don't consider myself a modder because I don't have the skills and mindset modders do. I am a tester at heart, not a custom-content developer
And even I never said in this entire thread that it will be impossible to make good mods for Fallout 4, I said that to turn Fallout 4 into a good RPG it will take a lot of effort, time and probably a dedicated team of skilled modders
Of course, but the thread itself is implying that the modding community and custom content will slow to a halt and die. (And personally, I think the only reason 3's modding died was because of NV's soon release. People like to stick with the most modern platforms.)
Of course, but we aren't talking about fixing what's there. We're talking about fully-custom, player-made content that adds to the game, but doesn't change what's there.
Legobrick100
First time out of the vault
Look, my final thoughts are:
- The only complaints I have heard about Fallout 4 was the quests, and dialogue. Meaning the important stuff for a stable modding community is okay; the worldspaces, sandbox(items, weapons, enemies), and basic gameplay is okay. Quests and dialogue can be made much better in player-made quest mods, which, for many of us, are the content we play more than the base game anyway, regardless of how good or bad the base-game is.
- Player-made quest mods are not fixing what's there; they were never meant too. But they do ensure the longest-lasting content is provided in decent quality. These mods provide endless, quality content and a good reason to consistently use characters we become fond of, and ensures we get to see their adventures continue. (Playing the same quests over-and-over again, whether it be player-made, or vanilla, can get boring. Whether they're good or bad. That's why you NEED modding; endless content, continual excitement and interest.)
Dialogue
- Dialogue won't require a voiced character. It will be just like custom-NPCs that aren't voiced, that rely solely on subtitles.
- Dialogue choice, when needing more than four choices, can be easily added onto with a 'more' option, which shows more dialogue options.
- Dialogue will not have to stick to the standards set by vanilla-Fo4: It will not require 'sarcastic', 'no', 'yes' stuff.
- Modders can use an already-created mod that reverts the dialogue menu to the old way; where the entire choice is shown.
Quests
- There are a few vanilla quests that demonstrate that the quest system is capable of non-killing quests and objectives. Stuff like Cambridge Polymer Labs, which also showed the inclusion of optional quest objectives, AND legitimate choices.
(I also must mention that Fallout 4 is still based on the same engine that New Vegas used; meaning if New Vegas was capable of it, Fallout 4 is definitely capable of it. So, in regards to custom content, not much has changed.)
This ensures that we get all the depth and excitement that was present in New Vegas quest mods, but with the modern and comparatively-stable technology and gameplay of Fo4.
After all, Bethesda chose to present their content the way they chose too; we can choose to present our content the way we choose to, too.
- Remember, it's not always about fixing the game. There are some mods that will try, and will do that, but that's not what I value as a modder. I value making my own content; providing good content to people who enjoy it. Modding, allows the less game-development-savvy to create. I'm a content maker; that's what I do. Whether it be Youtube, a modding community, or even a news/media page, I WANT to provide content. That's how I like spending my free time. On the other side of things, I know first-hand that quest mods can provide more reason to come back to a game and use the characer I've come to know.
- The only complaints I have heard about Fallout 4 was the quests, and dialogue. Meaning the important stuff for a stable modding community is okay; the worldspaces, sandbox(items, weapons, enemies), and basic gameplay is okay. Quests and dialogue can be made much better in player-made quest mods, which, for many of us, are the content we play more than the base game anyway, regardless of how good or bad the base-game is.
- Player-made quest mods are not fixing what's there; they were never meant too. But they do ensure the longest-lasting content is provided in decent quality. These mods provide endless, quality content and a good reason to consistently use characters we become fond of, and ensures we get to see their adventures continue. (Playing the same quests over-and-over again, whether it be player-made, or vanilla, can get boring. Whether they're good or bad. That's why you NEED modding; endless content, continual excitement and interest.)
Dialogue
- Dialogue won't require a voiced character. It will be just like custom-NPCs that aren't voiced, that rely solely on subtitles.
- Dialogue choice, when needing more than four choices, can be easily added onto with a 'more' option, which shows more dialogue options.
- Dialogue will not have to stick to the standards set by vanilla-Fo4: It will not require 'sarcastic', 'no', 'yes' stuff.
- Modders can use an already-created mod that reverts the dialogue menu to the old way; where the entire choice is shown.
Quests
- There are a few vanilla quests that demonstrate that the quest system is capable of non-killing quests and objectives. Stuff like Cambridge Polymer Labs, which also showed the inclusion of optional quest objectives, AND legitimate choices.
(I also must mention that Fallout 4 is still based on the same engine that New Vegas used; meaning if New Vegas was capable of it, Fallout 4 is definitely capable of it. So, in regards to custom content, not much has changed.)
This ensures that we get all the depth and excitement that was present in New Vegas quest mods, but with the modern and comparatively-stable technology and gameplay of Fo4.
After all, Bethesda chose to present their content the way they chose too; we can choose to present our content the way we choose to, too.
- Remember, it's not always about fixing the game. There are some mods that will try, and will do that, but that's not what I value as a modder. I value making my own content; providing good content to people who enjoy it. Modding, allows the less game-development-savvy to create. I'm a content maker; that's what I do. Whether it be Youtube, a modding community, or even a news/media page, I WANT to provide content. That's how I like spending my free time. On the other side of things, I know first-hand that quest mods can provide more reason to come back to a game and use the characer I've come to know.
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