Mr. House vs. The Institute - who wins? spoilers

[ZeaLitY]

Posting here, since there's probably fewer people in the New Vegas forum who've played Fallout 4.

In my original playthrough of New Vegas, I admittedly chose Mr. House. For all the threat of autocracy, at the core, Mr. House was still human, and not insusceptible to the wealth and trappings of Las Vegas (where he'd originally moved and set up shop). The fact that he'd been in Vegas, had been kind of a playboy, etc. humanized him to me and made me trust him far more than the NCR, Legion, or my own lawless state to get the job done and re-energize humanity.

Fallout 4's similar choice with the Institute has left me flat (ditto for the Railroad). The game does a great job of borrowing from established sci-fi (Blade Runner etc.), but it does a terrible job of truly attempting to answer whether gen-3 synths have consciousness, free will, any organic components at all, etc. The Institute is also ethically bankrupt -- seriously, how is it okay to just commit unpredictable killings and release unstable builds capable of murder (such as the Broken Mask incident) without any oversight? Why was it okay to kill all the residents of Vault 111 by disabling life support? Why would an organization capable of teleportation that can apparently use stealth boys at will not simply take a stealth approach to its objectives? And so I never considered the Institute for a second, even with Shaun. It's clear from the dialogue and framing that Shaun and the rest of the scientists have no concept of conventional human experience, and have led an extremely pampered lifestyle allowing them to effectively "other" the other residents of the Commonwealth and consider them completely expendable, to the point of justifying casual murder. I could never trust them, and I'd almost be more likely to trust the Think Tank instead.

Anyway, that's just one of a lot of other criticisms that have made me terribly miss New Vegas. But I thought -- if the House ending were canon, and the Institute ending occurred for Fallout 4, who wins when the forces inevitably clash? Will House's societal revolution have produced technology that can compete yet? Would House eventually discover the Sierra Madre technology and employ unkillable holograms? Would nukes salvaged from the Divide be used against the Institute?

Sorry if someone's already posted this, but I couldn't find it searching.

 

[SaucyLad]

Posting here, since there's probably fewer people in the New Vegas forum who've played Fallout 4.

In my original playthrough of New Vegas, I admittedly chose Mr. House. For all the threat of autocracy, at the core, Mr. House was still human, and not insusceptible to the wealth and trappings of Las Vegas (where he'd originally moved and set up shop). The fact that he'd been in Vegas, had been kind of a playboy, etc. humanized him to me and made me trust him far more than the NCR, Legion, or my own lawless state to get the job done and re-energize humanity.

Yeah that's the ending path I went with the most and feel is canon myself. IMO since House made New Vegas what it was pre-war, saved it mostly during the great war, and rebuilt it after the apocalypse New Vegas is 100% his and I, the Courier, am not getting in his way. It'd just be selfish and honestly makes no sense for a delivery guy to run as big of an area by himself.

As for House vs the Institute it'd be a stomp in House's favor. The Institute are jokes. It took them 200 years to figure out how to "cure" FEV. It took pre-war West-Tek ONE YEAR for comparison. The Institute has no real accomplishments aside from Synths but they're not even that strong. One Securitron with an upgraded OS could take out dozens of laser pistol wielding Synths by itself.

And even if things got hairy - and they wouldn't but still, House would ask the Courier to go stomp Shaun's/Sole Survivor's ass.

 

[MercenarySnake]

In a gaming world where Bethesda controls the world and lore, since House wasn't created by them they'll say FATHER and the institute would win because space magic.

 

[Walpknut]

The Institute is too incompetent despite their technology, House would win.

 

[ZeaLitY]

In a gaming world where Bethesda controls the world and lore, since House wasn't created by them they'll say FATHER and the institute would win because space magic.

Yeah, seriously. I wanted to scream when I found out that coursers are teleported around. Fallout doesn't try to obey scientific rules, but teleportation is so fucking incredibly far out and not only difficult in the real world, but utterly insane in the tube-electronic world of Fallout (yes, I know, the transistor was still invented at some point) that it takes any lore credibility left and chucks it into the trash. Somehow the experiments of the Big MT still seem way more believable and lore-friendly compared to the teleportation.

 

[Hassknecht]

In a gaming world where Bethesda controls the world and lore, since House wasn't created by them they'll say FATHER and the institute would win because space magic.

Yeah, seriously. I wanted to scream when I found out that coursers are teleported around. Fallout doesn't try to obey scientific rules, but teleportation is so fucking incredibly far out and not only difficult in the real world, but utterly insane in the tube-electronic world of Fallout (yes, I know, the transistor was still invented at some point) that it takes any lore credibility left and chucks it into the trash. Somehow the experiments of the Big MT still seem way more believable and lore-friendly compared to the teleportation.

The Big MT also invented teleportation."Transportalponder".

 

[ZeaLitY]

Ugh, I knew I was forgetting something. But I kept googling FO2, trying to remember if that had a teleporter in it, haha.

 

[PossibleCabbage]

The Institute is too incompetent despite their technology, House would win.

Yeah, the Institute has better tech, but House has vision, clarity, and will that the Institute lacks and House has the edge in manpower and infrastructure (particularly if he controls the Dam). The first few bits of Institute Tech that House gets his hands on and has taken apart will go a long way towards narrowing the tech gap.

The Institute is mostly advanced because they've been immersed in technology for the past couple centuries, but the actual CIT faculty died long ago, and House was an honest to goodness genius in the pre-war era. He could have earned a professorship at CIT easily, but due to whimsy and business acumen he didn't want to.

The Big MT also invented teleportation."Transportalponder".

You pretty much get away with having the Think Tank invent more or less anything in the canon of science fiction, since they're all extremely intelligent, bored, and utterly devoid of ethics. Since basically nothing can get out of Big Mountain (particularly after the security measures put in place after Ulysses, Christine, and Elijah visited) you don't have to worry about contaminating the rest of the setting.

 

[Dr Fallout]

Mr House would win. He has logic, intelligence, common sense and a will to win on his side. His massive armies of rocket launcher, grenade launcher, sub machine gun and mini-laser robots also helps.

 

[RangerBoo]

The Institute constantly contradict their own logic and goals while House does not. Therefor House wins by default.

 

[MercenarySnake]

I just hope they don't retcon House like they did to the Mojave. Since West-Tek did in 1 year the very thing the Institute took over 200 years to achieve, House wins over the Institurd.

 

[Crni Vuk]

The House. Always wins.

 

[ZigzagPX4]

The Institute is Bethesda's creation entirely, correct? There has never been a mention of it in any older Fallout games?

 

[Someguy37]

The Institute is Bethesda's creation entirely, correct? There has never been a mention of it in any older Fallout games?

Correct.

They were introduced in Fallout 3 via the "Replicated Man" side quest, and briefly mentioned in New Vegas in House's Obituary, which said he attended the school before the war. But there was no mention of them in Fallout 1, 2, or Tactics.


*edit*
If House, as he was in NV, were to go against The Institute, as they are in Fallout 4, House would lose.
1. He has no means of getting into The Institute, since he lacks teleportation. Whereas The Institute can appear basically anywhere, at any time, due to having teleportation.
2. He lacks any sort of heavy firepower needed to break into CiT without teleportation. His company utterly failed to get Liberty Prime working before the war, so even if he got his hands on it from the Maxson BoS, its unlikely he could ever use it.
3. He is at a distinct disadvantage because he had no known means to make more Securitrons. Where as The Institute can seemingly make as many synths as they want.
4. His Securitrons are pretty poorly designed just to start off with. They are insanely top heavy, and their only means of movement is a singular wheel that uses rubber. You could stop them by mining the area around CiT with thumbtacks of all things.

 

[ZigzagPX4]

The Institute is Bethesda's creation entirely, correct? There has never been a mention of it in any older Fallout games?

Correct.

They were introduced in Fallout 3 via the "Replicated Man" side quest, and briefly mentioned in New Vegas in House's Obituary, which said he attended the school before the war.

but there was no mention of them in Fallout 1, 2, or Tactics.

Huh. I expected a much more nuanced organisation when Zimmer described it in Fallout 3. Like Big MT if people were still running it.

Speaking of which, when I heard Fallout 4 was about the famed "Institute", first thing I did in the game was to coordinate locations in the map with the real MIT (this was before the maps were released) and then head directly to it, to see if like Fallout 3 and New Vegas, a little bit of smarts could get you right to the end of the first act or clue you in to where to actually go. Severely disappointed it wasn't anything but a super mutant dungeon.

I was sorta pissed when I found out they used teleportation. The way the main story is set up, you have to follow the tracks right to the very end. I headed over to Fort Hagen early and the parts of the place that leads to the next part of the main quest is just blocked off by wooden panels. You literally cannot go pass any of the story quickly.

Either way, Mr House definitely wins this one. In fact, Mr House is actually a very good representation of what happens if the Institute actually cared about anything on the surface. The Institute turned out to be, put simply, inventors of everything in our 21st century. Microprocessors, bioscience, etc. Wasn't much thought put into it. Mr House can actually utilise what he creates.

 

[ZigzagPX4]

Shifting this into two posts so as to not make one long dreary megapost.

*edit*
If House, as he was in NV, were to go against The Institute, as they are in Fallout 4, House would lose.
1. He has no means of getting into The Institute, since he lacks teleportation. Whereas The Institute can appear basically anywhere, at any time, due to having teleportation.
2. He lacks any sort of heavy firepower needed to break into CiT without teleportation. His company utterly failed to get Liberty Prime working before the war, so even if he got his hands on it from the Maxson BoS, its unlikely he could ever use it.
3. He is at a distinct disadvantage because he had no known means to make more Securitrons. Where as The Institute can seemingly make as many synths as they want.
4. His Securitrons are pretty poorly designed just to start off with. They are insanely top heavy, and their only means of movement is a singular wheel that uses rubber. You could stop them by mining the area around CiT with thumbtacks of all things.

That is, until you actually start thinking about the Institute. They obviously needed the nuclear reactor component they needed you to fetch for a reason - they've got limited power compared to what they need for the teleporter. And as far as I know, they don't actually have unlimited resources for synths. I suppose it appears that way, as a result of Bethesda trying to make them appear powerful.

It's directly stated in the game that Coursers are limited numbers. Plus, Gen 1-2 synths aren't all that durable. Ironically, much like their enemy, the Railroad, they require subterfuge to survive. They snatch people with surface spies, attack with cannon fodder armies in the night when no one is expecting (University Point), and struggles to keep themselves secret. They can maintain a defense inside? Not what the endgame for any ending but the Institute's implies. They can maintain a defense on the outside? My ass. Their foot soldiers are cannon fodder and rare Terminators. Their offensive capabilities are that of the Legion - hit hard, fast, big numbers, run away.

If it helps the comparison, they hit like the Legion, think like Big MT, act like the Master.

 

[Someguy37]

In fact, Mr House is actually a very good representation of what happens if the Institute actually cared about anything on the surface. .

You mean they could have become insane, egomaniacal, manics, who care nothing for anyone beyond the small group of people they can get to play pre-war Vegas stereotype dollhouse, even to the extent of forcing most of the people to live in slums, even though he could have easily helped them, simply because they refused to play dollhouse?


House is a complete idiot, who has failed at nearly everything he ever sat out to do.
-He failed to get prime working before the war.
-He failed to correctly predict when the war would happen. and because of this...
-He failed to get his defenses upgraded in time
-He failed to protect the city as he wanted to
-This also almost killed him.
-Then, despite regaining consciousness in 2138, he failed to do anything to secure Vegas until 2274, when the NCR showed up around Hoover Dam. This left him terribly disadvantaged since he was literally scrapping by on the three Families, when he could have had a rebuilt city and an established power base for over 100 years by that point, that could have far more easily stood up to the NCR and Legion. Hell, he could have had his entire Securitrons army active by then, even at the Mk1 versions, they would put him in a far better position to negotiate.
-When picking the three Families, he failed to pick anyone decent, as all of them betrayed him in some sort of manner.
-He also failed to pick a decent apprentice, as Benny betrayed him too.
-And as events transpired in NV, if the Courier did not help him, House had zero chance of beating the NCR or Legion because he managed to blow every advantage he could have had on various dumb moves, and really bad judgement of people.

That is, until you actually start thinking about the Institute. They obviously needed the nuclear reactor component they needed you to fetch for a reason - they've got limited power compared to what they need for the teleporter. And as far as I know, they don't actually have unlimited resources for synths. I suppose it appears that way, as a result of Bethesda trying to make them appear powerful.

It's directly stated in the game that Coursers are limited numbers. Plus, Gen 1-2 synths aren't all that durable. Ironically, much like their enemy, the Railroad, they require subterfuge to survive. They snatch people with surface spies, attack with cannon fodder armies in the night when no one is expecting (University Point), and struggles to keep themselves secret. They can maintain a defense inside? Not what the endgame for any ending but the Institute's implies. They can maintain a defense on the outside? My ass. Their foot soldiers are cannon fodder and rare Terminators. Their offensive capabilities are that of the Legion - hit hard, fast, big numbers, run away.

If it helps the comparison, they hit like the Legion, think like Big MT, act like the Master.

And they were already making moves to take it from Mass Fusion, and nothing suggests the BoS would have beat them there had you not helped out. They were already on the way to fixing their biggest problem, and didn't even really need YOU to help them do it.

On the other hand, House is entirely without anything unless you help him because of consistent poor moves on his part.

Not to mention The Institute can make more super mutants to throw at House, on top of synths.

 

[ZigzagPX4]

In fact, Mr House is actually a very good representation of what happens if the Institute actually cared about anything on the surface. .

You mean they could have become insane, egomaniacal, manics, who care nothing for anyone beyond the small group of people they can get to play pre-war Vegas stereotype dollhouse, even to the extent of forcing most of the people to live in slums, even though he could have easily helped them, simply because they refused to play dollhouse?

Pretty much.

 

[Dr Fallout]

In fact, Mr House is actually a very good representation of what happens if the Institute actually cared about anything on the surface. .

You mean they could have become insane, egomaniacal, manics, who care nothing for anyone beyond the small group of people they can get to play pre-war Vegas stereotype dollhouse, even to the extent of forcing most of the people to live in slums, even though he could have easily helped them, simply because they refused to play dollhouse?


House is a complete idiot, who has failed at nearly everything he ever sat out to do.
-He failed to get prime working before the war.
-He failed to correctly predict when the war would happen. and because of this...
-He failed to get his defenses upgraded in time
-He failed to protect the city as he wanted to
-This also almost killed him.
-Then, despite regaining consciousness in 2138, he failed to do anything to secure Vegas until 2274, when the NCR showed up around Hoover Dam. This left him terribly disadvantaged since he was literally scrapping by on the three Families, when he could have had a rebuilt city and an established power base for over 100 years by that point, that could have far more easily stood up to the NCR and Legion. Hell, he could have had his entire Securitrons army active by then, even at the Mk1 versions, they would put him in a far better position to negotiate.
-When picking the three Families, he failed to pick anyone decent, as all of them betrayed him in some sort of manner.
-He also failed to pick a decent apprentice, as Benny betrayed him too.
-And as events transpired in NV, if the Courier did not help him, House had zero chance of beating the NCR or Legion because he managed to blow every advantage he could have had on various dumb moves, and really bad judgement of people.

That is, until you actually start thinking about the Institute. They obviously needed the nuclear reactor component they needed you to fetch for a reason - they've got limited power compared to what they need for the teleporter. And as far as I know, they don't actually have unlimited resources for synths. I suppose it appears that way, as a result of Bethesda trying to make them appear powerful.

It's directly stated in the game that Coursers are limited numbers. Plus, Gen 1-2 synths aren't all that durable. Ironically, much like their enemy, the Railroad, they require subterfuge to survive. They snatch people with surface spies, attack with cannon fodder armies in the night when no one is expecting (University Point), and struggles to keep themselves secret. They can maintain a defense inside? Not what the endgame for any ending but the Institute's implies. They can maintain a defense on the outside? My ass. Their foot soldiers are cannon fodder and rare Terminators. Their offensive capabilities are that of the Legion - hit hard, fast, big numbers, run away.

If it helps the comparison, they hit like the Legion, think like Big MT, act like the Master.

And they were already making moves to take it from Mass Fusion, and nothing suggests the BoS would have beat them there had you not helped out. They were already on the way to fixing their biggest problem, and didn't even really need YOU to help them do it.

On the other hand, House is entirely without anything unless you help him because of consistent poor moves on his part.

Not to mention The Institute can make more super mutants to throw at House, on top of synths.

I actually agree, Mr House isn't the best person but I think he would beat the Institute.

Only because he's well written and they're not.

 

[Someguy37]

I actually agree, Mr House isn't the best person but I think he would beat the Institute.

Only because he's well written and they're not.

So really the argument comes down to "I think he would win because Obsidian wrote him, and not because of any actual sort of advantage of tactics, resources, manpower, technology, etc. etc.!"

Also
>House
>well written
>100% cliche Howard Hughes stereotype that every movie/book/tv show having a Howard Hughes stereotype has used
>well written

I guess if you consider going ctrl+c, then ctrl+v, good writing... sure.