NCR, Enclave, FEV Curling-13 (and mutants)

[The Enclave 86]

Vault 13 was hidden pretty well. Mariposa is a facility with an external compound, so it's far easier to locate. That said, you are quite simply wrong. Mariposa was excavated in 2236, check the timeline in the Fallout bible. Furthermore, if it was excavated in 2170, why is there Melchior Jr. in Redding who misses his father, who was abducted as a slave?

You've got to be kidding me right... fuck. Going to have to massively re-think things now; tomorrow anyway, it's 23:32. That dumb-ass on the Bethesda Forums is going to be such pain when I reveal this.

Because part of the Enclave comes from the military-industrial complex and it's generally a good idea to have a couple hundred Marines at your disposal?

To be honest I never really thought about it, I thought that they may begin some scheme to recruit more people in the face of the on-coming war... I actually like it as an idea, they just post a lot of soldiers to the ENCLAVE; I think that that fits in perfectly will with everything I though, an excellent idea.

He says they found it. Not excavated. The excavation happened in 2236, again, check the timeline provided by MCA in the Fallout Bible. This also invalidates much of your later post, especially when you factor in Melchior and his son.

Is the timeline canon? I mean whilst it is pretty comprehensive it also says some things which I would question. Like it says that the Enclave went around the world for example; providing ample justification for Bethesda to keep bringing them back again and again and again .

Let's see: if they weren't fixated on killing everyone else, maybe to strike a deal with the NCR, an alliance?.

I still can't believe it, so much reasoning done for many topics, undone by that little fucker. The second I put Fallout 2 in again the Enclave's coming back to paste him to the walls .

Nope. It strikes me as an example of how the Enclave, in its single minded pursuit of its deluded dream of eradicating everyone else, has forgot common sense and logic

I wouldn't be the one asking, I'd be the one killing them for willful ignorance and lack of critical thought.

Yet I thought you would argue that the Enclave Citizens knew nothing of the Project; so you are joyfully killing people completely ignorant of their crime or even the fact that one is even being commited? Not an excuse for their actions or that you shouldn't kill them; I don't know, it's like I don't see the point in calling individual Legioniarres evil when really, they're just as much slaves as the actual slaves, except that they don't know it.

How so? Last I read, he didn't care about anything else than science - that's pretty far from attempting to commit genocide on a total scale, especially since Henry's research eventually leads to a discovery of a cure for Nightkin.

Exactly that, he doesn't care about anything other than the discovery, when you can return to him outraged that the mutant syrum killed the mutant he just waves it off and says, "Well technically it does work, just too violently, need to make adjusted."

 

[Tagaziel]

You've got to be kidding me right... fuck. Going to have to massively re-think things now; tomorrow anyway, it's 23:32. That dumb-ass on the Bethesda Forums is going to be such pain when I reveal this.

The Truth. No matter the cost.

To be honest I never really thought about it, I thought that they may begin some scheme to recruit more people in the face of the on-coming war... I actually like it as an idea, they just post a lot of soldiers to the ENCLAVE; I think that that fits in perfectly will with everything I though, an excellent idea.

Yep. Even the GNN transcript the soldiers fucked with at the SAD mentions the Pacific fleet being ordered to the oil derrick to protect it.

Is the timeline canon? I mean whilst it is pretty comprehensive it also says some things which I would question. Like it says that the Enclave went around the world for example; providing ample justification for Bethesda to keep bringing them back again and again and again .

Yes. It is. The timeline comes from Black Isle, therefore it's canon.

I still can't believe it, so much reasoning done for many topics, undone by that little fucker. The second I put Fallout 2 in again the Enclave's coming back to paste him to the walls .

Einmal ist keinmal. You can kill Melchior Jr. and still be considered a decent guy.

Yet I thought you would argue that the Enclave Citizens knew nothing of the Project; so you are joyfully killing people completely ignorant of their crime or even the fact that one is even being commited? Not an excuse for their actions or that you shouldn't kill them; I don't know, it's like I don't see the point in calling individual Legioniarres evil when really, they're just as much slaves as the actual slaves, except that they don't know it.

Ignorant? You're arguing that they are aware of the Project's nature and yet you claim they are ignorant of their crime? Ignorantia legis non excusat, ignorance of law is no excuse. This applies to pretty much everything in life.

Exactly that, he doesn't care about anything other than the discovery, when you can return to him outraged that the mutant syrum killed the mutant he just waves it off and says, "Well technically it does work, just too violently, need to make adjusted."

What, you expect him to break down in tears and commit ritual suicide? He's a scientist, he works on a cure that works in the bigger picture. I see no inherent lack of ethics here, especially since it's a wasteland.

 

[The Enclave 86]

The Truth. No matter the cost.

Exactly, if I'm wrong I'm wrong.

Yep. Even the GNN transcript the soldiers fucked with at the SAD mentions the Pacific fleet being ordered to the oil derrick to protect it.

I remember that, shame that they didn't do anything with it.

Einmal ist keinmal. You can kill Melchior Jr. and still be considered a decent guy.

It's going to happen a lot more than once my friend, just till I get it out of my system.

Ignorant? You're arguing that they are aware of the Project's nature and yet you claim they are ignorant of their crime? Ignorantia legis non excusat, ignorance of law is no excuse. This applies to pretty much everything in life.

Yes that's exactly what I am saying, they think (or rather believe what they are told) that it is right and necessary for the revial of the United States, the goal which they have been working on to retake the mainland.

What I am saying in response to you is that, yeah, we can say that it's evil; what I mean is that you can kill them as being evil people, but they didn't really have any choice in the matter, particularly the citizens on the Rig; even accepting Curlings change, it took an outsider to make them realise that. An external source and a means of comparison are the two things that the citizens just don't have, they have no reason to doubt what they do.

What, you expect him to break down in tears and commit ritual suicide? He's a scientist, he works on a cure that works in the bigger picture. I see no inherent lack of ethics here, especially since it's a wasteland.[/quote]

No, but he doesn't care in the slightest, more annoyed that his science didn't work as opposed to the Super Mutant who he has just unknowingly experimented on.

Maybe I should replace respect with felt any kinship with.

Less ambiguous.

Basicly you would have the NCR, a large bloated nation of tribals ruled over by pre war humans.

You just can't let go of your prejudice and hate for the NCR, can you?

 

[Quagmire69]

I wonder why a self-destructive, broken NCR vetetan suffering from deep PTSD is more worthy of respect

Maybe I should replace respect with felt any kinship with.

The Enclave would be completely out of it's depth when trying to solve all of the problems of the people on the mainland,

Basicly you would have the NCR, a large bloated nation of tribals ruled over by pre war humans.

 

[Tagaziel]

Exactly, if I'm wrong I'm wrong.

That's a refreshing approach in Internet debate

I remember that, shame that they didn't do anything with it.

I always assumed that the fleet was cannibalized over the years, for Vertibirds, armour, weapons and spare parts. Would make sense and explain where did they get so much resources - and why the Pacific fleet was absent from the oil rig when you dock there.

It's going to happen a lot more than once my friend, just till I get it out of my system.

I've never completed a childkiller playthrough, imagine that.

Yes that's exactly what I am saying, they think (or rather believe what they are told) that it is right and necessary for the revial of the United States, the goal which they have been working on to retake the mainland.

What I am saying in response to you is that, yeah, we can say that it's evil; what I mean is that you can kill them as being evil people, but they didn't really have any choice in the matter, particularly the citizens on the Rig; even accepting Curlings change, it took an outsider to make them realise that. An external source and a means of comparison are the two things that the citizens just don't have, they have no reason to doubt what they do.

They always had a choice, especially the high level command. As evidenced by Johnson (whose account is corroborated by all the Remnant, including Moreno), they could've objectively looked at the deeds of the Enclave and make a decision. Indoctrination was a factor in this, but at the same time, everyone had free will. And that's why I'm not going to cut them slack, not when the stake was the survival of the human species.

No, but he doesn't care in the slightest, more annoyed that his science didn't work as opposed to the Super Mutant who he has just unknowingly experimented on.

I really don't see the problem here, especially since it was the Chosen One who chose the test subject, not Henry. The doctor can't be blamed for his decision, especially since he didn't have to go to Broken Hills but kill eg. Lenny (Merk's pet racist) or Grundel in Mariposa or in fact any other supermutant in the military base or the remnants of the Master's Army.

 

[The Enclave 86]

That's a refreshing approach in Internet debate

Whilst I will try and defend my point, if it's wrong then it's wrong; no shame in that, I am not going to lie to myself after all.

I always assumed that the fleet was cannibalized over the years, for Vertibirds, armour, weapons and spare parts. Would make sense and explain where did they get so much resources - and why the Pacific fleet was absent from the oil rig when you dock there.

Perhaps, and then maybe scuttled as they became impossible to maintain?

They always had a choice, especially the high level command. As evidenced by Johnson (whose account is corroborated by all the Remnant, including Moreno), they could've objectively looked at the deeds of the Enclave and make a decision. Indoctrination was a factor in this, but at the same time, everyone had free will. And that's why I'm not going to cut them slack, not when the stake was the survival of the human species.

I would still argue that the common citizens couldn't go any other way but I believe that we've reached our final conclusions on the matter here; well played old sport .

 

[Quagmire69]

You just can't let go of your prejudice and hate for the NCR, can you?

For the last time I don't hate the NCR. I may have sounded like I did earlier in the conversation but only that was only because I got defensive argueing with NCR fanclub. In reality thier not much better or worse than the other factions of vegas. Ceasar was right about one thing, the NCR's biggist fault is its weakness. I actually don't think the NCR would be that bad if they could pull it off. I just honestly don't think they will.

And that's why I'm not going to cut them slack, not when the stake was the survival of the human species.

This coming from someone who defends the Super Mutants?

 

[Walpknut]

"the NCR's biggist fault is its weakness. " vague statement is vague. Did you know that their weakness is one of their faults? because the biggest flaw of the Caesar's Legion is their weakness too.....

Quag, there is a big difference between pointing out the potential flaws on every faction (I have criticed the NCR before) and another is making stuff up to acomodate to your baseless arguments, liek the NCR attacking the ENclave because they wanted to clam they were the US goverment first.... or that they would kill every ghoul NCR citizen just because.

 

[Quagmire69]

uag, there is a big difference between pointing out the potential flaws on every faction (I have criticed the NCR before) and another is making stuff up to acomodate to your baseless arguments, liek the NCR attacking the ENclave because they wanted to clam they were the US goverment first.... or that they would kill every ghoul NCR citizen just because.

It conjecture. Its not different than assuming that the NCR knew about the curling fev project even though theirs no confermation of that in the game. What about conjecture that the NCR is pro mutant and the Legion is anti. That just speculation given that the player has been only given tidbits of factions attitudes. In the end we don't know why the NCR attacked the Enclave, or if the NCR will kill the ghouls.

As far as why I'm getting all this flack the reason is pretty obvious. This is a forum were people have picked favorites. Its the NCR fanclub, just like on the Bethsada forum everyone has a hard on for either the Enclave, or the Brotherhood. If I were too go on that forum and say "the Enclave are Brotherhood are both fascist, elitist, assholes" I would get shit. So I get shit here because.

1. I challenged the accepted good guys.
2. I sided withe the accepted bad guys.
3. I mocked several people.
4. Laughed about doing bad things, even though those were bad video game things.

 

[White Knight]

uag, there is a big difference between pointing out the potential flaws on every faction (I have criticed the NCR before) and another is making stuff up to acomodate to your baseless arguments, liek the NCR attacking the ENclave because they wanted to clam they were the US goverment first.... or that they would kill every ghoul NCR citizen just because.

It conjecture. Its not different than assuming that the NCR knew about the curling fev project even though theirs no confermation of that in the game. What about conjecture that the NCR is pro mutant and the Legion is anti. That just speculation given that the player has been only given tidbits of factions attitudes. In the end we don't know why the NCR attacked the Enclave, or if the NCR will kill the ghouls.

As far as why I'm getting all this flack the reason is pretty obvious. This is a forum were people have picked favorites. Its the NCR fanclub, just like on the Bethsada forum everyone has a hard on for either the Enclave, or the Brotherhood. If I were too go on that forum and say "the Enclave are Brotherhood are both fascist, elitist, assholes" I would get shit. So I get shit here because.

1. I challenged the accepted good guys.
2. I sided withe the accepted bad guys.
3. I mocked several people.
4. Laughed about doing bad things, even though those were bad video game things.

No you get shit because your arguments are baseless and you make stuff up.

 

[Stanislao Moulinsky]

This coming from someone who defends the Super Mutants?

Quick, tell me what was the plan of the Master.

Its the NCR fanclub

Ahahah, that's a good one. I don't remember anyone defending them because they loved them so much, it's just that your arguments were flawed. Like for example...

In the end we don't know why the NCR attacked the Enclave, or if the NCR will kill the ghouls.

...this one. We already know they won't. If the NCR had an anti-ghoul policy why would ghouls join their army?

 

[Walpknut]

Quagmire realy likes to talk about erections doesn't he? All that talk about hard ons, is more than a little suspect.

 

[Quagmire69]

Quick, tell me what was the plan of the Master.

Force humans to evolve above their differences with FEV. Dip a portion of the population in it volonterily or by force and castrate the rest ending the human species.

 

[The Enclave 86]

Regular soldiers and citizens weren't privy to the fact that the Project encompassed human genocide on a global scale. To them it was war with horrible mutants or ruthless warlords. As Moreno says, back then it was war - a war created and maintained by the ruthless command, by the deluded, prejudiced, hypocritical nuts in charge.

I see no reason why not, even those damn Remnants still say that they miss being in the Enclave and having a purpose; Whitman can say whatever she wants about "Just wanting to fly" but at the end of the day she knew that she was dropping off a squad of massively armed men in a military gunship to stomp on something that probably didn't deserve it. Same with Kreger, when he wasn't being an Enclave Patrolmen (the nicest folk in Fallout 2) he was flying off to complete those missions.

There's nothing to suggest that Johnson and all of those didn't come to those beliefs after the destruction of the ENCLAVE; something like that could really only enforce the loyalty of some or shatter it.

Why would it be a secret, there are two deserters in Fallout 2, Meyers who is opposed to the Enclave and Doctor Henry who isn't really all that ethical, remember his quest where he justifies to a potentially outraged Chosen One by saying that "Technically it did cure mutations, just too violently", the only thing that seems to phase him is the fact that his science didn't work. If they didn't tell them then who would the ruins of Shady Sands be explained, or the other mainlander settlements? Besides, going by Richardson's dialouge we can garner that the Enclave actually thought that most of the mainland was a "radioactive hell".

In any event however, they were about to be told about it, and I think Richardson (possibly on his 6th term if the Bible is canon) would know whether his people could handle it; I however would interperate it as if they knew due to the past tense used "at times is seemed impossible". It seems to me like he has been keeping his people informed and that this is the victory speech.

 

[pall]

Hello, my first post here, anyway to me it seems that Quagmire69 simply does not understand NCR and it orgins.

You see Quagmire69 , in fallout 1 there was a small village named shandy sands, whose citizens have orgins in vault 15.
they were descent of Americans, not any communist or whatever you thing they were. They were small, peaceful community which was harassed by radscorpions and raiders. Then vault dweller come, defeated te radscorpions, freed tandi-daughter of leader of shandy sands from raiders and walked to do what has been done by him.

Tandi and Aradesh (her father-leader of this village) founded the New California Republic, This NCR.
see... NCR has been founded by American descends from vault 15, not from any communist agents or usurpers or something.
here is full info:
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/New_California_Republic

about Enclave...Yes Enclave are descends of governament of USA but they became rasists thinking that only they can live and other deserve to die.
Is that American way?... democracy way? good way to kill anybody who is even a little tad mutated( with all world except Enclave probably are)

lets me ask you something Quagmire69. who is more fit to rebuild American wastelands(or at least part of it)
Enclave who are USA gov but want to kill everybody except themselves. or simple descents of Normal USA citizents(not communist!) who simply want to have more purpose, stability and something to live for,?Enclave with their pure race rasist views or NCR with their old world values (democracy, equality and such)?


For me, while NCR aren't perfect, they are best hope for wastelands.

PS: And war between orginal BOS and NCR happened aready, guest who won.

pss: please forgive me any langue mistakes i made, i'm not from english speaking country.

 

[Stanislao Moulinsky]

Force humans to evolve above their differences with FEV. Dip a portion of the population in it volonterily or by force and castrate the rest ending the human species.

Ending the human species...but not killing its members (casualties of the war aside). Are you telling me you don't see the difference with the plan of the Enclave?

Ok, the SMs are sterile so if they succeded the human race would have ended for good, but that's another story.

 

[Quagmire69]

Ending the human species...but not killing its members (casualties of the war aside). Are you telling me you don't see the difference with the plan of the Enclave?

Ok, the SMs are sterile so if they succeeded the human race would have ended for good, but that's another story.

Sounds worse than the Enclaves plan. Master=huge loss of life and extinction of humanity, Enclave=huge loss of life and survival of humanity.

 

[Walpknut]

Survival of HUmanity? The ENclave's plan would only ensure the survival of the ENclave for some decades, after that then humanity would be a bunch of Inbred freaks. I say thats worse.

 

[Quagmire69]

Survival of HUmanity? The ENclave's plan would only ensure the survival of the ENclave for some decades, after that then humanity would be a bunch of Inbred freaks. I say thats worse.

You do realize that for the majority of human history humans lived in small bands that usually composed less than a hundred people. In early US history most people communities were smaller than that of the Enclave and most people never traveled outside of those communities. So by that theory we are all inbred.

Lets get down too brass tax here. All of these groups are meant to represent aspects of real life history. Rather than Hitlers Nazis the Enclave are meant to be 50's era America, before hippies, before the Vietnam war. The Curling virus is meant as a metaphor for mutual assured destruction during the cold war. The Master represents Marxisms radical attempt too destroy human differences. The NCR are meant too represent what has replaced 50's era America.

So in reality our game allegiances really reflect our real world allegiances. I don't like what has become of America, that predisposes me towards the Enclave and against the NCR and the Master, I suspect its a similar case with Enclave 86.[/list]

 

[The Enclave 86]

Survival of HUmanity? The ENclave's plan would only ensure the survival of the ENclave for some decades, after that then humanity would be a bunch of Inbred freaks. I say thats worse.

You don't think that it's likely that the Enclave would have someway to counter for that? They aren't idoits, they could have repatriated the Vaults for a start. Before you say anything about Vault 13 that was a special case, the gunning down during the intro cut-scene is just to show typical Enclave brutality but the guy actaully giving the orders, Richardson, doesn't look down on the Vault Dwellers as inferior:

"Uh, Vault 13, I see. You've been doing your country an invaluable service."

Once the deed has been done then there is nothing stopping the repatriation of those citizens that survived into the Enclave. Besides, if you actually read Richardson's dialouge you'll see that to him, and by extension the Enclave, is ultimately motivated by the survival of humanity, with them being Americans largely irrelevant.

{262}{prs49}{Never. Part of the president's job is to make the tough decisions. A lot of near-humans will sacrifice their lives for the return of humanity. Humans will prevail.}

{265}{prs50}{You can't stop it. The tests are complete and the toxin is ready for release. In hours, your villagers will be the first to make the ultimate sacrifice. The other mutants will follow. An unfortunate footnote in the continuing history of the human race.}

{267}{prs51}{Oh, I don't relish this decision. If there was another way- but there isn't. No price is too high for the survival of the human race. If you were human, you'd feel the same way.}

{277}{prs56}{You might find that tougher than you think. If you do, I'll go to my reward knowing that I died a patriot and a servant of humanity.}

{287}{prs60}{Why, against the F.E.V. toxin, of course. Damn brave sacrifice you and the other members of Vault 13 are making. On behalf of the United States government, and all humanity, I thank you. Now, we better get you back to your ward.}

{291}{prs61}{So what? If your kind is allowed to flourish it'll mean the end of the human race as we know it. We can't allow radioactive freaks to squeeze humans into extinction.}

{298}{prs64}{I assure you, I'm quite sane, as is everyone on the Project. We're dedicated to the salvation of the human race. You can call single-minded dedication to a cause madness, I suppose, but if so, it's divine madness.}

{304}{prs66}{As the embodiment of the executive branch, I bear the burden of ensuring the survival and prosperity of the United States and of humanity itself. A heavy burden and yet if it means the return of the earth to our children and to their children, I bear it gladly.}

Even at times when he mentions America it is usually in relation to humanity in general, eg, 277 & 287 where he adds and humanity. He believes that the Enclave is saving the human race, what you make of that is up to you but the Enclave certainly isn't scheming about how it's now going to rule the world simply for some power fantasy.