NCR, Enclave, FEV Curling-13 (and mutants)

[Tagaziel]

In his mind, the Enclave is synonymous with humanity. The FEV virus kills without discrimination, hence only the oil rig would survive. This isn't excusable.

Besides, we've already been there in this thread. Contribute something new.

 

[The Enclave 86]

In his mind, the Enclave is synonymous with humanity. The FEV virus kills without discrimination, hence only the oil rig would survive. This isn't excusable.

Besides, we've already been there in this thread. Contribute something new.

I was responding to someone else whom I didn't agree with, everything I said was perfectly valid to the discussion.

 

[pall]

I always thought that it was well know among fallout fans that Enclave is rasist organization bend on genocide of 95% world pollulation.

I simply can't understand how somebody can defend Enclave even when there is said in-Game that hey want to kill everybody except themselves. (or think that Enclave is fit to rule.)

So what that they think they are making it for humanity? it does NOT excuse mass murders on global scale.

Anybody who played fallout should know that they are evil bastards. Its all in-game.

And now Enclave is death, and good riddance i say!

 

[The Enclave 86]

I always thought that it was well know among fallout fans that Enclave is rasist organization bend on genocide of 95% world pollulation.

I simply can't understand how somebody can defend Enclave even when there is said in-Game that hey want to kill everybody except themselves. (or think that Enclave is fit to rule.)

So what that they think they are making it for humanity? it does NOT excuse mass murders on global scale.

Anybody who played fallout should know that they are evil bastards. Its all in-game.

And now Enclave is death, and good riddance i say!

Read the rest of the thread if you really care. Don't believe anyone has even said that the Enclave is good or right.

 

[Stanislao Moulinsky]

Sounds worse than the Enclaves plan. Master=huge loss of life and extinction of humanity, Enclave=huge loss of life and survival of humanity.

Uhm...no. Sterility aside is:
-Master: small loss of lives, survival of humanity in a better form
-Enclave: huge loss of lives, survival of a small number of humans
The fact that humanity would be transformed into SMs is secondary.

 

[Courier]

Not to mention that if only the people on that oil rig and in Navarro survived the Enclave's plan, then there wouldn't be enough genetic diversity to keep the human race going for long. You need at least a few thousand people for the continued survival of the species.

 

[The Enclave 86]

Uhm...no. Sterility aside is:
-Master: small loss of lives, survival of humanity in a better form
-Enclave: huge loss of lives, survival of a small number of humans
The fact that humanity would be transformed into SMs is secondary.

Not really the survival of humanity though is it? I mean most turn into fucking Harry; the people fromt the Vaults like Vault 13, after the splatterfest that we see when the mutants storm the place what incentive is there then for the humans whom they have just forcibly dipped to submit to the Masters will? The whole point about them trying to get pure-strain humans was so they kept their intelligence right?

Besides, even if you were talking about humanity from a non-species standpoint, what humanity is there in the Master? Everyone becomes a hulking, pretty much-identical monster. And better form? From a utilitarian standpoint maybe but that's the point, there is almost nothing 'human', in any description of the word, about the Super Mutants. Intelligence survivies but the human species does in-fact die out.

It sounds like your saying that just because there is no literal killing invloved it makes it better. They still forcibly turn people into super mutants, most of which aren't capable of Lieutenant level thinking, and castrate the rest/imprison & regulate others. How is that better overall and how is it different to the Enclave's plan, save the human intelligence/race through the creation of a single identity.

 

[Stanislao Moulinsky]

Not really the survival of humanity though is it? I mean most turn into fucking Harry; the people fromt the Vaults like Vault 13, after the splatterfest that we see when the mutants storm the place what incentive is there then for the humans whom they have just forcibly dipped to submit to the Masters will? The whole point about them trying to get pure-strain humans was so they kept their intelligence right?

First of all, I'm discussing the master's plan if it worked as he had intended. If the SMs weren't sterile, that is. That said:

Most SMs turn into idiots? I don't see it. In NV, nightkins and second generation SMs aside, I don't see dumb mutants.

And even if that was true the sons of the SMs wouldn't have been brain damaged, wouldn't they?

Besides, even if you were talking about humanity from a non-species standpoint, what humanity is there in the Master?

I don't understand what you mean, here.

And better form? From a utilitarian standpoint maybe but that's the point, there is almost nothing 'human', in any description of the word, about the Super Mutants. Intelligence survivies but the human species does in-fact die out.

They seem to be more clear minded, they are functionally immortal, immune to disease and radiation, stronger and more resistent. "Human" is just a word in this case, it's the brain that makes a person and if that survives than you are still what you were before. Humanity would die as a species but the humans that were part of it wouldn't.

How is that better overall and how is it different to the Enclave's plan, save the human intelligence/race through the creation of a single identity.

Less loss of lives, better intentions behind the plan, higher chanches of long term survival. I'd say it's better than the Enclave's plan, yes.

 

[Quagmire69]

Not to mention that if only the people on that oil rig and in Navarro survived the Enclave's plan, then there wouldn't be enough genetic diversity to keep the human race going for long. You need at least a few thousand people for the continued survival of the species.

Has'nt this already been debunked. Humanity lived in bands smaller than this for most of our history. By your logic were all imbred.

It sounds like your saying that just because there is no literal killing invloved it makes it better. They still forcibly turn people into super mutants, most of which aren't capable of Lieutenant level thinking, and castrate the rest/imprison & regulate others. How is that better overall and how is it different to the Enclave's plan, save the human intelligence/race through the creation of a single identity.

Because the factions in the game are parables for real life intities. The types who would join the master are simalar too the types that would join the communist. People with such dissatisfaction with life that anything would seem preferable.

 

[The Enclave 86]

First of all, I'm discussing the master's plan if it worked as he had intended. If the SMs weren't sterile, that is. That said:

Most SMs turn into idiots? I don't see it. In NV, nightkins and second generation SMs aside, I don't see dumb mutants.

And even if that was true the sons of the SMs wouldn't have been brain damaged, wouldn't they?

Cutting out the Nightkin and the Second Gens (for obvious reasons) still doesn't leave that many, I thought that the Second Generations were greater in number (something I never understand unless most of the 1st Generations simply died or weren't present) and that the First guided them. I thought that was the whole point of finding prime-normals, they have a better chance of producing super mutants with higher brain functions because of zero radiation exposure. Oh, the airborne FEV which innoculated most of the mainlanders from the full effects of the FEV, that's what I meant to say.

I don't understand what you mean, here.

Because the intelligent SM's are the crux of the Master's Plan right? How could human beings wake up as these Super Mutants and even find each-other sexually appealing, assuming that the FEV change is only physical; then again if the FEV even goes as far as to alter things apart of the human brain like sexuality then I still say that the virus is essentially destroying the human race. All Super Mutants look similar, the Master's Plan is the destruction of identity down to an individual basis; there is only the Unity. There is nothing human about the mutants

They seem to be more clear minded, they are functionally immortal, immune to disease and radiation, stronger and more resistent. "Human" is just a word in this case, it's the brain that makes a person and if that survives than you are still what you were before. Humanity would die as a species but the humans that were part of it wouldn't.

Immortality, can't see any problems with that right? I don't know where you get 'clear minded' from and as for the rest, yeah but at what cost? Again, Vault 13 is raided, a lot of people are gunned down and beaten up, then taken across the desert and forcably changed into SM's, what motivation is there for these people to like or obey the Master?

 

[Courier]

Not to mention that if only the people on that oil rig and in Navarro survived the Enclave's plan, then there wouldn't be enough genetic diversity to keep the human race going for long. You need at least a few thousand people for the continued survival of the species.

Has'nt this already been debunked. Humanity lived in bands smaller than this for most of our history. By your logic were all imbred.

The minimum requirement for a stable gene pool is around 2000 people, with a ratio of two or three women for every man. I was under the impression that there were only a couple hundred Enclave members at the most, and that's being pretty generous.


Edit: It's the same flaw as Vault 101 had by being intended to "never open". Eventually everyone would be so genetically similar that they would be unable to reproduce unless they opened the vault.

Edit: Now that I think about it that might have been the real experiment of Vault 101, seeing how few people were needed for the Enclave to re-colonize the Earth.

 

[Crni Vuk]

*shrugs* who says the Vaults or the Enclave had not access to a gene-pool ? Frozen sperm and such. I mean seriously. With all that kind of technology around.

 

[Courier]

I'm not sure, on an oil rig? Even then I'm not sure there were enough women to be genetically diverse enough, unless every woman had several different babies all from different sperm donors.

 

[Stanislao Moulinsky]

Because the intelligent SM's are the crux of the Master's Plan right? How could human beings wake up as these Super Mutants and even find each-other sexually appealing

Beauty is a relative concept. If everyone is ugly no one is ugly. And if you really want to come down to it...sexual deprivation can lead straight men to have sex with each other.

All Super Mutants look similar, the Master's Plan is the destruction of identity down to an individual basis; there is only the Unity. There is nothing human about the mutants

How can you say that they look similar? Based on what? In-game models? It's just tech limitations. Harry, Marcus and the Lieutenant look different, for example.

Immortality, can't see any problems with that right?

*shrugs* Mandatory euthanasia when senility kicks in and sterilization after having two or three sons.

I don't know where you get 'clear minded' from

Wrong words maybe, but this is what Marcus says and the master and the Lieutanant seems to do as well.

"My memories of being a human aren't as clear as they once were, but I remember pettiness, hatred, jealousy... I prefer being a mutant."

and as for the rest, yeah but at what cost? Again, Vault 13 is raided, a lot of people are gunned down and beaten up, then taken across the desert and forcably changed into SM's, what motivation is there for these people to like or obey the Master?

I don't see your point. I'm not saying that the Master's plan wouldn't lead to innocent casualties or that it wasn't immoral in its execution. But unlike other madmen's plans this one was really for the greater good.

 

[Quagmire69]

I don't what I did when I started this thread but it must good considering how its captivated everyone. Cudos on the name change, it fits the discussion better.

 

[The Enclave 86]

How can you say that they look similar? Based on what? In-game models? It's just tech limitations. Harry, Marcus and the Lieutenant look different, for example.

Barely, I didn't say that they were all clones but look at them, they are all so similar; same blubber-like greeny skin, same really sticking out chin, same smallish upturned noses and same bones above the eyes.

*shrugs* Mandatory euthanasia when senility kicks in and sterilization after having two or three sons.

So massive amounts of regulation and control are also required? Not saying it wouldn't work but I still consider mortally to be better for society overall.

Wrong words maybe, but this is what Marcus says and the master and the Lieutanant seems to do as well.

"My memories of being a human aren't as clear as they once were, but I remember pettiness, hatred, jealousy... I prefer being a mutant."

Okay then I see what you mean. Still all those things apply to all intelligent creatures, nothing stopping a Super Mutant being jealous of what the other has. It's the Master's UNITY which does that, it's just that his plan for brotherly love involves turning everyone into pretty similar looking creatures.

I don't see your point. I'm not saying that the Master's plan wouldn't lead to innocent casualties or that it wasn't immoral in its execution. But unlike other madmen's plans this one was really for the greater good.

Yeah, that Victor Presper guy was a lunatic.

If this is another jab at the Enclave then look at the previous page, near the bottom, were I post all the quotes where Richardson says that he is doing everything for the survival of the human race and that even if you murder him he knows that he'll die a servant of humanity.

So again, pretty similar plans. Master thinks that unifying people through one species and his leadership will lead to a better future; Richardson believes that the sacrifice of everyone on the mainland willl, ultimately, allow the human race to survive and 'if it means the return of the earth to our children and to their children, I bear it gladly.'

 

[Quagmire69]

Okay then I see what you mean. Still all those things apply to all intelligent creatures, nothing stopping a Super Mutant being jealous of what the other has. It's the Master's UNITY which does that, it's just that his plan for brotherly love involves turning everyone into pretty similar looking creatures.

I think what he's trying too say is that super mutants are above petty human squabbling. Frankly I don't care if they really are superior, all the more reason too kill them.

In Fallout 3 Fawkes mentions that one of the reason so many mutants are insane is because being dipped in FEV is such an excruciatingly painful event.

 

[Stanislao Moulinsky]

If this is another jab at the Enclave then look at the previous page, near the bottom, were I post all the quotes where Richardson says that he is doing everything for the survival of the human race and that even if you murder him he knows that he'll die a servant of humanity.

It's not the same thing. The Master wanted to improve the human species with a benevolent intent behind it (a real one). The Enclave wanted to kill everyone for entirely egoistical reasons, sugar coating it by saying that it was for the greater good and stuff like that. The fact that Richardson believes it's true doesn't matter, we can see from the outside that his plan wasn't benevolent in the slightlest.

So again, pretty similar plans. Master thinks that unifying people through one species and his leadership will lead to a better future; Richardson believes that the sacrifice of everyone on the mainland willl, ultimately, allow the human race to survive and 'if it means the return of the earth to our children and to their children, I bear it gladly.'

"Complete genocide for egoistical reasons" vs "unification through forced evolution" are pretty similar plans?

I think what he's trying too say is that super mutants are above petty human squabbling.

Something like that. The FEV apparently seems to induce this kind of mind setting.

In Fallout 3 Fawkes mentions that one of the reason so many mutants are insane is because being dipped in FEV is such an excruciatingly painful event.

The west coast version of the FEV, though.

 

[The Enclave 86]

It's not the same thing. The Master wanted to improve the human species with a benevolent intent behind it (a real one). The Enclave wanted to kill everyone for entirely egoistical reasons, sugar coating it by saying that it was for the greater good and stuff like that. The fact that Richardson believes it's true doesn't matter, we can see from the outside that his plan wasn't benevolent in the slightlest.

Biased much? The fact that Richardson believes it matters about as much as the Master believing his goal. When did they ever 'sugar coat' anything? What 'egotism'?

"Complete genocide for egoistical reasons" vs "unification through forced evolution" are pretty similar plans?

Well when you word it so un-objectively it's no wonder you get confused; Christ and people say that the Enclave are closed minded, I have absolutely no doubts that the Master would probably make a better world, I personally just don't like that world. When you mean egotism do you mean the pro-American attitude of most of the people? Well that is simply to keep people together, the regime requires a common enemy, "It's your kind that destroyed this mighty nation!" - Enclave Patrolmen, and a national identity, something to unify them if you will... oh wait. The Enclave's method of unifying it's own people is no different to what the Master wants on a grand scale, a single identity to prevent unrest; or are the Enclave 'egotistical' for not trying to force their ideology onto other people? Except that the Master also wants to ability to destroy human free will according to the quote below.

The FEV apparently seems to induce this kind of mind setting.

What? The FEV completely removes the ability jealousy, hatred and all antogonistic feelings?[/url]

 

[Crni Vuk]

I'm not sure, on an oil rig? Even then I'm not sure there were enough women to be genetically diverse enough, unless every woman had several different babies all from different sperm donors.

An oil rig is a pretty big place. We have to assume a lot anyway. I mean it is pretty obvious that the Enclave must have one way or another access to resources. Like Oil eventually ? (no clue) and ways how to get manufacture their equipment. One could always assume that the Oil Rig was bigger then just those few levels. I think that is for sure one way or another a limitation of the engine or even not needed at all. I mean we only see a small part of all locations anyway. Yet we have to "believe" it is a huge wasteland with some big towns (like Shady Sands) even though you see only a small part of it. I always had the feeling those towns would have been "much" bigger in my imagination. But that is just me.