NCR, Enclave, FEV Curling-13 (and mutants)

[Walpknut]

The NCR have try them because both claim to be the US gov. Theirs no way they can claim to be the new US if theirs still a US government alive.

If the Enclave are universally reviled then why does no one else seem to give a damn with the exception of the Brotherhood, who just want their tech. Vegas and its citizens seem not too care most likely due to the fact that its a pre war city and not inhabited by road warrior types and trogs. If you go independent I wouldn't be surprised if Arcade became the fucking mayor.

[/quote]

You are just pulling eevrythign from your ass now aren't you?
Where the hell do you get all this made up factoids from? The Enclave wanted to kill everybody who wasn't inoculated to the Virus, is almost mind boggling that The Chosen One would have not warned them about it, its canon that he helped them anex Vault city. Nobody gives a shit abotu the enclave because they are dead. You should READ the dialogue, and make sure that you are not making stuff up just to acomodate it to your arguments.

 

[Stanislao Moulinsky]

Again, no evidence in that claim.

There are literate survivors that knows what the Enclave was doing, and the NCR started a 40 years long witch hunt. It's a perfectly logical possibility. And there's no evidence that it's not what happened.

The NCR have try them because both claim to be the US gov.

No evidence in that claim. I'm amazed at the mind bending logic you are using to make the NCR into what you WANT it to be.

Not to mention that the guys at Navarro could have claimed whatever they wanted, even that they were the kings of the world, but hadn't the means to prove it.

 

[brfritos]

I'm not american, I'm brazilian, as it's specified under my name.
But why everytime I read about the NCR is always comparing them to the US?

You don't have democracies too much different in England, Netherlands, Germany, France, Italy and Brazil than the NCR.
Ok, there's a difference in Italy, the prime-minister has sex with prostitutes and they don't try to impeach him, unlike the US, but that's all.

I mean, the situations regarding the citizens of the NCR, like subjecting to law, having jobs, free time, poverty and so on are not much different from a lot of democracies around the world.
There's the specific events of the game that lead to another approach - like having a nuclear war - but in overall the NCR are pretty much what a modern democracy is.

[ ]'s

 

[Tagaziel]

I'd like to address the claim that the Enclave is a legitimate continuation of the US government. Here's my Fallout Critique blog on the matter:

There is a common conviction among ''Fallout'' players that the Enclave is pre-War America, that it is the the sole legitimate sovereign of the United States, that only Enclave citizens are proper American citizens. On the other hand, the "mutants" living on the mainland outside Enclave's facilities and military bases are pariahs, stateless barbarians, who can't possibly be considered Americans, especially not when they belong to such non-American states like the New California Republic.

And since everyone thinks they're the only real America, they're the only real America, right?

Wrong.

The Enclave is nothing but a deluded, fascist group of raiders, styling themselves after the pre-War US government. They have cutting edge technology, all built using pre-War government property, yes. They are direct descendants of pre-War members of the government and the military industrial complex, yes. They claim to be the the "real" America and the only legal government the US has, yes.

But do their claims have any merits? None. Why? Because there's the little document from 1787 they have violated time and time again. The Constitution of the United States of America, the founding document of the Union, its blueprint.

Since the Enclave claims to be the legal government of the United States, it is automatically bound by the law outlined in the founding document. If it acts in contradiction of it, it is no longer a contitutional organ, but an usurper, a tyrant, a despot.

First of all, the issue of citizenship. It's a common misconception that only Enclave citizens are American citizens. The 1868 Amendment to the Constitution of the United States says otherwise:

1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

As you can see, ''ius soli'' decides citizenship. All people born on the territory of the United States, regardless of their ancestry, are, by law, her citizens. This is ''very'' important, as the Enclave claims to be the legal American government, complete with the Congress and President. But are they?

Let's consult the main body of the constitution and the amendments:

|The House of Representatives shall be composed of Members chosen every second Year by the People of the several States, and the Electors in each State shall have the Qualifications requisite for Electors of the most numerous Branch of the State Legislature.

The executive Power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America. He shall hold his Office during the Term of four Years, and, together with the Vice-President chosen for the same Term, be elected, as follows:

Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress: but no Senator or Representative, or Person holding an Office of Trust or Profit under the United States, shall be appointed an Elector.

The Senate of the United States shall be composed of two Senators from each State, elected by the people thereof, for six years; and each Senator shall have one vote. The electors in each State shall have the qualifications requisite for electors of the most numerous branch of the State legislatures.

It doesn't take a genius to see that a few thousand bastards on an oil rig in the Pacific (plus give or take a few thousand on the mainland) aren't the People and as such, any organ elected by them is unconstitutional and therefore illegal.

In consequence, not only is the Enclave's supposedgovernment illegal, it is also criminal in nature, as it has commited criminal acts against the People of the United States, including treason. They have murdered American citizens, without any respect for the law, kidnapped them for slave labor and lethal medical experiments, I doubt there was a crime they didn't commit against the People, the sovereign of the United States.

And, as a criminal organization, it was proper for them to be destroyed by the Chosen One and later pursued into oblivion by the New California Republic, as they represented the interests of the People of the United States, the post-nuclear citizens of the shattered Union.

Sorry Orion, but the Enclave wasn't the real America. Deal with it.

PS: Remember, the NCR was estabilished as a successor of the United States, hence they are not bound by the Constitution. However, given that it was founded on the same principles as its predecessor, it's the closest to a legitimate heir of the Union the People can get. Plus, remember, the People are the sovereign, not the government, so if they wish to ignore the Constitution and create a new state, it's their right to do so.

 

[The Enclave 86]

I'd like to address the claim that the Enclave is a legitimate continuation of the US government. Here's my Fallout Critique blog on the matter:

There is a common conviction among ''Fallout'' players that the Enclave is pre-War America, that it is the the sole legitimate sovereign of the United States, that only Enclave citizens are proper American citizens. On the other hand, the "mutants" living on the mainland outside Enclave's facilities and military bases are pariahs, stateless barbarians, who can't possibly be considered Americans, especially not when they belong to such non-American states like the New California Republic.

And since everyone thinks they're the only real America, they're the only real America, right?

Wrong.

The Enclave is nothing but a deluded, fascist group of raiders, styling themselves after the pre-War US government. They have cutting edge technology, all built using pre-War government property, yes. They are direct descendants of pre-War members of the government and the military industrial complex, yes. They claim to be the the "real" America and the only legal government the US has, yes.

But do their claims have any merits? None. Why? Because there's the little document from 1787 they have violated time and time again. The Constitution of the United States of America, the founding document of the Union, its blueprint.

Since the Enclave claims to be the legal government of the United States, it is automatically bound by the law outlined in the founding document. If it acts in contradiction of it, it is no longer a contitutional organ, but an usurper, a tyrant, a despot.

First of all, the issue of citizenship. It's a common misconception that only Enclave citizens are American citizens. The 1868 Amendment to the Constitution of the United States says otherwise:

1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

As you can see, ''ius soli'' decides citizenship. All people born on the territory of the United States, regardless of their ancestry, are, by law, her citizens. This is ''very'' important, as the Enclave claims to be the legal American government, complete with the Congress and President. But are they?

Let's consult the main body of the constitution and the amendments:

|The House of Representatives shall be composed of Members chosen every second Year by the People of the several States, and the Electors in each State shall have the Qualifications requisite for Electors of the most numerous Branch of the State Legislature.

The executive Power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America. He shall hold his Office during the Term of four Years, and, together with the Vice-President chosen for the same Term, be elected, as follows:

Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress: but no Senator or Representative, or Person holding an Office of Trust or Profit under the United States, shall be appointed an Elector.

The Senate of the United States shall be composed of two Senators from each State, elected by the people thereof, for six years; and each Senator shall have one vote. The electors in each State shall have the qualifications requisite for electors of the most numerous branch of the State legislatures.

It doesn't take a genius to see that a few thousand bastards on an oil rig in the Pacific (plus give or take a few thousand on the mainland) aren't the People and as such, any organ elected by them is unconstitutional and therefore illegal.

In consequence, not only is the Enclave's supposedgovernment illegal, it is also criminal in nature, as it has commited criminal acts against the People of the United States, including treason. They have murdered American citizens, without any respect for the law, kidnapped them for slave labor and lethal medical experiments, I doubt there was a crime they didn't commit against the People, the sovereign of the United States.

And, as a criminal organization, it was proper for them to be destroyed by the Chosen One and later pursued into oblivion by the New California Republic, as they represented the interests of the People of the United States, the post-nuclear citizens of the shattered Union.

Sorry Orion, but the Enclave wasn't the real America. Deal with it.

PS: Remember, the NCR was estabilished as a successor of the United States, hence they are not bound by the Constitution. However, given that it was founded on the same principles as its predecessor, it's the closest to a legitimate heir of the Union the People can get. Plus, remember, the People are the sovereign, not the government, so if they wish to ignore the Constitution and create a new state, it's their right to do so.

Well it's pretty clear that the Enclave has gone against the Constitution; is it not equally as possible that the in the build-up before the war, any number of Continuity of Government laws were passed to allow the government to function with deminished personnel? I mean what if it happened in real life, where the majority of Congress and the Cabinet were killed? Would the US just stop existing?

I'm no Constitutional expert or anything but I thought that the way to stop any rouge faction from passing whatever Amendment that they wanted was to have the majority of Congress and such pass these Amendments. What if before the war, emergency powers were created, perhaps even influenced by the pre-war Enclave themselves, which would allow a much smaller group to pass these laws. Couldn't then the Enclave just pass whatever Amendment they wanted to post-war?

What would happen if they officially acknowledged that the mainland American Continent was no longer the soverign territory of the United States? Or if they were officially a "Government in Exile".

Besides what does it even matter? How many people have openly come out in support of the Enclave, soley because they are the legitimate government of the United States? If what you are saying is true and that they are no longer the United States of America, does that mean that they cannot call themselves the American Government or something? The NCR is in no way affiliated with the old State of California and if the US government doesn't exist in any soverign form then they aren't citizens of the United States. Yet they call themselves Californians and the NEW California Republic.

I really don't understand whom this article was aimed at; the fact that the Enclave don't appear to bide by what we know as the Constitution is pretty self-evident, but I wouldn't say that we know enough to say that means that they aren't in some way a legitimate successor if not a spiritual one like the NCR. You'd have to be a lunatic to think that because the Enclave is legitimate it excuses them.

 

[Lexx]

Considering that the enclave believed to be the last pure humans on earth / in america and everyone else is a horrific mutant, I doub't they care about the laws- after all, everyone else is just a mutant and therefore they don't have rights.

Funny fact, though: The poison with which they wanted to purify the lands, killed them as well and not only mutants.

 

[The Enclave 86]

Considering that the enclave believed to be the last pure humans on earth / in america and everyone else is a horrific mutant, I doub't they care about the laws- after all, everyone else is just a mutant and therefore they don't have rights.

Funny fact, though: The poison with which they wanted to purify the lands, killed them as well and not only mutants.

It was a virus and killed them because it required a vaccination; the whole reason why Daniel Bird was mentally handicapped was because he voluteered for the early testing.

Richardson describes it as a necessary and unfortunate sacrifice, not like rodent extermination like Eden.

 

[Tagaziel]

The article is meant to show that they have no legal right to declare themselves the American government, as they haven't been elected in any way, shape or form. They are basically raiders, except with better guns.

Now, Enclave 86, the problem with your proposal is that it's not going to happen. In order to change the constitution, you need to first have an amendment proposed (by two thirds of Congress or two-thirds of State legislatures) and then have it passed by three-fourths of the states. While certainly possible, is it really plausible? No. An amendment that'd effectively turn the US into a dictatorship would be dumped, burned and shot repeatedly at the Congressional commitee stage and any politician insane enough to propose it to the Congress would be effectively commiting political suicide.

As such, your claim that the Enclave could pass any law they want after the war is completely baseless.

The point is, many people believe that the Enclave is a legitimate government of the United States. They are not, they have not been elected, they have commited treason against fellow citizens and are an illegal, unconstitutional criminal organization that deserved to be destroyed.

They aren't legitimate in any way, shape or form. Just a bunch of deluded fascists with the occassional good apple.

 

[The Enclave 86]

Now, Enclave 86, the problem with your proposal is that it's not going to happen. In order to change the constitution, you need to first have an amendment proposed (by two thirds of Congress or two-thirds of State legislatures) and then have it passed by three-fourths of the states. While certainly possible, is it really plausible? No. An amendment that'd effectively turn the US into a dictatorship would be dumped, burned and shot repeatedly at the Congressional commitee stage and any politician insane enough to propose it to the Congress would be effectively commiting political suicide.

As such, your claim that the Enclave could pass any law they want after the war is completely baseless.

I suppose your right, even I wouldn't go as far as to say that the Enclave, pre-war, could control all of the US Congress.

The point is, many people believe that the Enclave is a legitimate government of the United States. They are not, they have not been elected, they have commited treason against fellow citizens and are an illegal, unconstitutional criminal organization that deserved to be destroyed.

They aren't legitimate in any way, shape or form. Just a bunch of deluded fascists with the occassional good apple.

At the end of the day, I personally don't care whether they are legitimate or not, hell I'm not even an American and have no fascination with the country.

I would even argue against any members of them being particularly good, only Meyers on the Tanker seemed to dislike them, Henry was still just as immoral in NCR. As for the NV Remnants, as much as I really do love them, I think that they all, aside form Moreno, go against what we see of the Enclave Patrolmen in Fallout 2. Like Kreger, "Some of the folks in charge were pretty ruthless but we just wanted to civilise things"; I just think that that's a silly line, how can you be a citizen of the Enclave and 'Just want to civilise things'? I love Whitman too who just says, "Things were different back then", yeah no shit, doesn't excuse what you've done. I really think that Moreno was the best of the bunch, I love, "Back then it was war, if I were on the winning side I'd be called a hero." I don't know, maybe you've got to be a guy like me to sympathise with him.

I just thought that they acted out of character for the Enclave and I've made pretty clear in my fan-fic what I thought Enclave domestic life was like.

 

[Tagaziel]

I suppose your right, even I wouldn't go as far as to say that the Enclave, pre-war, could control all of the US Congress.

And two thirds of state legislatures.

I would even argue against any members of them being particularly good, only Meyers on the Tanker seemed to dislike them, Henry was still just as immoral in NCR. As for the NV Remnants, as much as I really do love them, I think that they all, aside form Moreno, go against what we see of the Enclave Patrolmen in Fallout 2. Like Kreger, "Some of the folks in charge were pretty ruthless but we just wanted to civilise things"; I just think that that's a silly line, how can you be a citizen of the Enclave and 'Just want to civilise things'? I love Whitman too who just says, "Things were different back then", yeah no shit, doesn't excuse what you've done. I really think that Moreno was the best of the bunch, I love, "Back then it was war, if I were on the winning side I'd be called a hero." I don't know, maybe you've got to be a guy like me to sympathise with him.

Regular soldiers and citizens weren't privy to the fact that the Project encompassed human genocide on a global scale. To them it was war with horrible mutants or ruthless warlords. As Moreno says, back then it was war - a war created and maintained by the ruthless command, by the deluded, prejudiced, hypocritical nuts in charge.

Kreger and Whitman don't act out of character - decades of living among "mutants" have opened their eyes, they've seen the hypocrisy of the Enclave and work to atone for their sins. Moreno, who arguably was the most indoctrinated and ruthless of the lot (and propably would've made officer in time) is the most nostalgic. Johnson just wants to die after realizing the evil he's done.

I dislike Moreno because he's an ass who refuses to acknowledge the vile nature of the Enclave from the beginning (orchestrating Vaults as social experiments and abandoning America to save their asses during the nuclear holocaust) to the end (attempting to commit genocide).

I just thought that they acted out of character for the Enclave and I've made pretty clear in my fan-fic what I thought Enclave domestic life was like.

They acted perfectly in character for someone who's been living among "mutants" for decades after being brought up to loathe them as untermenschen.

 

[The Enclave 86]

Regular soldiers and citizens weren't privy to the fact that the Project encompassed human genocide on a global scale. To them it was war with horrible mutants or ruthless warlords. As Moreno says, back then it was war - a war created and maintained by the ruthless command, by the deluded, prejudiced, hypocritical nuts in charge.

I would contest that, the Enclave Citizens are certainly in no position to question the authority of the President, why should they care if it involves global genocide or not? They wouldn't be up-in-arms about it, they'd probably just think "Whatever the government think is best." It's would be a massive victory for them, the final culmination of their work on FEV for the past 70 years, besides once they are on the mainland, if they did cover it up, for whatever reason, their would be all of the bodies of all of the people who died and all of the dead settlement. Again, I see no reason why the populace wouldn't know about the Project.

Kreger and Whitman don't act out of character - decades of living among "mutants" have opened their eyes, they've seen the hypocrisy of the Enclave and work to atone for their sins. Moreno, who arguably was the most indoctrinated and ruthless of the lot (and propably would've made officer in time) is the most nostalgic. Johnson just wants to die after realizing the evil he's done.

They acted perfectly in character for someone who's been living among "mutants" for decades after being brought up to loathe them as untermenschen.

They talk like they've always been like that though, I just find it a little bit straining credulity, particularly in comparison to Fallout 2, that all apart from one of Gannon's father squadmates were all like, "Enclave meh, we just want to help." The Patrolmen in Fallout 2 were fanatics, "You die so that the Enclave will survive!" & "It's your kind which destroyed this great nation!" Even Kreger says, "Civilian casulties were sometimes even encouraged," so what you just happen to be proof against all of the constant propaganda? They clearly weren't that offended as only Johnson seemed to oppose him, that's my point, how can you have such a 'meh' attitude to the Enclave's modus operandi, surely you can accept it or be violently opposed. I just get the feeling that Jeff Hughes wanted to rectify the cannon-fodder, black knights we saw in F3 but was a little too overzealous. They were still Enclave patrolmen, they still gunned down innocent people, how many Enclave encounters in Fallout 2 did you see that just tried to turn you away, or gave you a few seconds to leave the screen? None, so Kreger making such a point that "Mercy wasn't part of Moreno's vocabulary" should be true of all of them, or at least more than one.

I would have no problem accepting that after 30 years (even though most of them say they miss those days, even Johnson) that they the Enclave conditioning would were off; hell be proved completely wrong, even Richardson himself was completely misinformed on the mainland condition, believing most to uninhabitable. But not whilst they were serving

I dislike Moreno because he's an ass who refuses to acknowledge the vile nature of the Enclave from the beginning (orchestrating Vaults as social experiments and abandoning America to save their asses during the nuclear holocaust) to the end (attempting to commit genocide).

I don't get the idea about hating on brainwashed people, he just can't let go, it was his whole life. You can hate the Legion for what they do, but their people are trained from birth to do warriors and fanatics. I just cannot hate something which really has little free will, not saying that it makes up for it but I certainly wouldn't call Moreno out just because he really can't stop living in the past, the other Remnants wish they could go back to those days (except for Henry, he doesn't make any such comment; Gannon doesn't count because he was only a small child), Moreno's just completely lost and consumed with anger and revenge.

I would too make an arguement that the Enclave by the stage of Fallout 2 really aren't like that before the war; what I mean is, yeah they are both ruthless organisations but for different motives. The pre-war Enclave are above any sort of redemption, they were in it for the power and themselves; but post-war they do want to rebuild America. There is nobody in the Enclave above the propaganda, even Richardson believes that what he is doing is right. They're just the product of their savage environment, Richardson (if the Bible is to be believed) on top of the propaganda had a father who pressurised him into the political field. By 2242 he was even willing to give his own life for the Project, laughing at you for suggesting that taking him hostage would do anything, "As his guards have orders to not let anything, or one, to stop the Project," before jsut saying "Are you going to shoot me then?"

It's not like Richardson wants to kill everyone because of a power fantasy, he wants to rebuild the Enclave's version of order and would even die as long as he could thinking that the Project would succeed.

My point is if the Citizens, the troopers both on the ENCLAVE and Navarro are so fanatical then why did this squad have to be so 'Meh' about the whole thing. I really wish I could have slapped Arcade and said, "Your father was a soldier of the Enclave and a patrolmen, he killed innocents and even died on an Enclave mission. That's what your Dad was and so were all of these people you call your family were too."

 

[Quagmire69]

I dislike Moreno because he's an ass who refuses to acknowledge the vile nature of the Enclave from the beginning (orchestrating Vaults as social experiments and abandoning America to save their asses during the nuclear holocaust) to the end (attempting to commit genocide).

I dislike the others for being hypocrites and changing their beliefs just because they lost. As Boone said "a murderer who performs good deeds is still a murderer". If you accept that all soldiers of the Enclave are murdering criminals then their still murdering criminals regardless of wether their sorry or not.

Thats why I only enjoy doing boone quest by siding with the NCR and picking the second option. Boone is a hero of the NCR, he should die a hero of the NCR, not as an assasin, not part of some murder suicide in a misgided attempt to restore honour, he should rejoin his old unit and hunt slavers in the desert with his leave time, I have to admit I also like the ending were he spits tabaco in the legates eye. He was probably the only companion I had any respect for.

 

[Tagaziel]

I would contest that, the Enclave Citizens are certainly in no position to question the authority of the President, why should they care if it involves global genocide or not? They wouldn't be up-in-arms about it, they'd probably just think "Whatever the government think is best." It's would be a massive victory for them, the final culmination of their work on FEV for the past 70 years, besides once they are on the mainland, if they did cover it up, for whatever reason, their would be all of the bodies of all of the people who died and all of the dead settlement. Again, I see no reason why the populace wouldn't know about the Project.

If they knew, then Kreger, Whitman or Johnson would surely make a reference to it? Hell, Moreno should've mention it if it was common knowledge.

They talk like they've always been like that though, I just find it a little bit straining credulity, particularly in comparison to Fallout 2, that all apart from one of Gannon's father squadmates were all like, "Enclave meh, we just want to help." The Patrolmen in Fallout 2 were fanatics, "You die so that the Enclave will survive!" & "It's your kind which destroyed this great nation!" Even Kreger says, "Civilian casulties were sometimes even encouraged," so what you just happen to be proof against all of the constant propaganda? They clearly weren't that offended as only Johnson seemed to oppose him, that's my point, how can you have such a 'meh' attitude to the Enclave's modus operandi, surely you can accept it or be violently opposed. I just get the feeling that Jeff Hughes wanted to rectify the cannon-fodder, black knights we saw in F3 but was a little too overzealous. They were still Enclave patrolmen, they still gunned down innocent people, how many Enclave encounters in Fallout 2 did you see that just tried to turn you away, or gave you a few seconds to leave the screen? None, so Kreger making such a point that "Mercy wasn't part of Moreno's vocabulary" should be true of all of them, or at least more than one.

I would have no problem accepting that after 30 years (even though most of them say they miss those days, even Johnson) that they the Enclave conditioning would were off; hell be proved completely wrong, even Richardson himself was completely misinformed on the mainland condition, believing most to uninhabitable. But not whilst they were serving

I don't really see a problem here. One, the Remnants are elderly people and memories tend to erode with age, leaving the more pleasant ones intact (unless you're a disenfranchised hardliner like Moreno). Two, they've been working with wastelanders for the better part of their lives by 2281, so that'd affect their perception of the past. Three, do you honestly believe a former Enclave infantryman would go "Hey, we used to kill your kind by the dozens in the olden days, slaughter families, burn their homes, but we changed our mind, we like you guys now " in your face?

I don't get the idea about hating on brainwashed people, he just can't let go, it was his whole life. You can hate the Legion for what they do, but their people are trained from birth to do warriors and fanatics. I just cannot hate something which really has little free will, not saying that it makes up for it but I certainly wouldn't call Moreno out just because he really can't stop living in the past, the other Remnants wish they could go back to those days (except for Henry, he doesn't make any such comment; Gannon doesn't count because he was only a small child), Moreno's just completely lost and consumed with anger and revenge.

That's precisely the reason I dislike him. He has free will, he is fully capable of making a rational, informed decision. Yet he refuses to, due to a carefully cultivated, lovingly nurtured hatred within himself. He had ample time to reflect on his life and his deeds, his service with the Enclave and his decisions. He makes a conscious decision to keep his old wounds open.

Incidentally, he's also one of my favourite characters precisely because I dislike him.

I would too make an arguement that the Enclave by the stage of Fallout 2 really aren't like that before the war; what I mean is, yeah they are both ruthless organisations but for different motives. The pre-war Enclave are above any sort of redemption, they were in it for the power and themselves; but post-war they do want to rebuild America. There is nobody in the Enclave above the propaganda, even Richardson believes that what he is doing is right. They're just the product of their savage environment, Richardson (if the Bible is to be believed) on top of the propaganda had a father who pressurised him into the political field. By 2242 he was even willing to give his own life for the Project, laughing at you for suggesting that taking him hostage would do anything, "As his guards have orders to not let anything, or one, to stop the Project," before jsut saying "Are you going to shoot me then?"

They don't want to rebuild America. If they wanted to rebuild America, then they would've landed on the mainland and actively helped restore civilization in, for example, 2097. Not decide to commit genocide on a global scale because of their perceived superiority. The Enclave is just like the German Reich, beyond any redemption. They wanted to kill thousands just because their DNA was changed, a little different than theirs.

It's not like Richardson wants to kill everyone because of a power fantasy, he wants to rebuild the Enclave's version of order and would even die as long as he could thinking that the Project would succeed.

And that's different from what Hitler wanted to do... How?

My point is if the Citizens, the troopers both on the ENCLAVE and Navarro are so fanatical then why did this squad have to be so 'Meh' about the whole thing. I really wish I could have slapped Arcade and said, "Your father was a soldier of the Enclave and a patrolmen, he killed innocents and even died on an Enclave mission. That's what your Dad was and so were all of these people you call your family were too."

Why? 30 years have passed and that particular bunch (Moreno excepted) never happened to be particularly fanatical about it. Hell, the fact that even in Fallout 2 there were two deserters (Meyers and Henry) shows that there were people who refused to conform and escaped into the wastes.

Fallout was never about black and white divisions. Even if the Enclave is pretty damn dark grey, claiming that all Enclave members are drones without free will is just silly.

I dislike the others for being hypocrites and changing their beliefs just because they lost. As Boone said "a murderer who performs good deeds is still a murderer". If you accept that all soldiers of the Enclave are murdering criminals then their still murdering criminals regardless of wether their sorry or not.

You don't know that they are all murdering criminals, which is why I refuse to pass judgement on them. Yes, Kreger, Moreno, Whitman, Johnson and Gannon Senior have killed civilians. Yes, they have commited crimes.

But remember that people die every day in the wastes. Most of the killers don't do anything to atone for their sins, most of them remain selfish bastards that continue their selfdestructive behaviour. But the Remnants did otherwise (well, half of them at least). While Moreno sits in his house sulking, Kreger and Whitman put the past behind them and help the wastelanders built a better future for themselves. They've been doing that for at least two decades. Johnson and Gannon are a special case. Cannibal never really followed the Enclave, as Arcade says, while Gannon Jr can be considered as atoning for the sins of his father.

Thats why I only enjoy doing boone quest by siding with the NCR and picking the second option. Boone is a hero of the NCR, he should die a hero of the NCR, not as an assasin, not part of some murder suicide in a misgided attempt to restore honour, he should rejoin his old unit and hunt slavers in the desert with his leave time, I have to admit I also like the ending were he spits tabaco in the legates eye. He was probably the only companion I had any respect for.

I wonder why a self-destructive, broken NCR vetetan suffering from deep PTSD is more worthy of respect than an educated Follower actively looking to help the wasteland (eg. medical research for the FotA) and providing a vital asset for the battle, a hot tempered caravan driver that can help to expose corruption in the NCR caravan houses, a Brotherhood scribe that wants to reform its faction into something that can actively aid the post-nuclear civilization instead of mooching off of it, a pre-War ghoul that had to cope with causing the death of his sister and for two centuries worked to aid the wasteland. Hell, even Lily can be instrumental in discovering the cure for Nightkin schizophrenia. How is Boone more worthy of respect?

 

[The Enclave 86]

If they knew, then Kreger, Whitman or Johnson would surely make a reference to it? Hell, Moreno should've mention it if it was common knowledge.

Why? "Yep I was an Enclave soldier a long time ago, we were going to release a virus that would viciously kill everyone on the entire planet... I miss those days sometimes." Really doesn't strike me as something to be bandying about.

I don't really see a problem here. One, the Remnants are elderly people and memories tend to erode with age, leaving the more pleasant ones intact (unless you're a disenfranchised hardliner like Moreno). Two, they've been working with wastelanders for the better part of their lives by 2281, so that'd affect their perception of the past. Three, do you honestly believe a former Enclave infantryman would go "Hey, we used to kill your kind by the dozens in the olden days, slaughter families, burn their homes, but we changed our mind, we like you guys now " in your face?

Fair enough.

They don't want to rebuild America. If they wanted to rebuild America, then they would've landed on the mainland and actively helped restore civilization in, for example, 2097. Not decide to commit genocide on a global scale because of their perceived superiority. The Enclave is just like the German Reich, beyond any redemption. They wanted to kill thousands just because their DNA was changed, a little different than theirs.?

No. The racism comes off stronger because they are talking to someone they are supposed to hate. Richardson admits that an Enclave-Mainland Alliance might work for a time but they believe that the numerical pressure of the mainlanders would eventually destroy them. There's like what, 1'000 people in the Enclave? They waited too long on the Oil Rig due to paranoia and fear (and because that early after the war the pre-war Enclavers were still around) and by the time that they went onto the mainland in the 2170's they saw only the Remnants of the Masters armies.

The Enclave would be completely out of it's depth when trying to solve all of the problems of the people on the mainland, just after the war the pre-war Enclavers were still alive, politicans, businessmen and generals, not regular soldiers, it makes sense that these bourgiuse bastards didn't want to leave, hell, maybe they didn't want the responsibility that soon after the war. Generations later when the power-elite that was the pre-war Enclave was dead and the new society we see had been around. Maybe the pre-war Enclave started the propaganda to convince the second-generation, who had known only the Rig, that the mainland was uninhabitable and so it was not safe to go out. I would wager that this might have been the case as even Richardson believes something similar as late as 2242.

Even the NCR is struggling, it's too swollen and has to deal with too many people in it's imperialist frenzy; predicted mass starvation in a decade as of 2281. What could a small contingent of people like the Enclave help both in 2000's, 2100's and even the 2200's? They have hydroponic bays to support themselves, presumably some purification and desalination equipment for water but aside from that and a shit-tonne of advanced military gear what do they have that could help the mainland. Unless they wanted to serve as a very small but effective army that crushed raiders then what else could they do? And even then who would they help, the NCR? Who of course have a brilliant record with smaller, elitist, technologically advanced civilisations which won't be annexed cough *Vault City*.

And that's different from what Hitler wanted to do... How?

It's not, I am making a point that the Enclave of 2242 aren't the pre-war bourgoise, power hungry, corrupt corporate millionaries that some think that they are. They're just a group of misguided people who live in a self-perpetuating regime; no one is above the lies, which have completely ecplised the truth. I just resent it sometimes when people say things about the Enclave I don't think are fair given the world that they live in. Richardson believed that the Enclave could rebuild the world, that he could rebuild true democracy and freedom, he was willing to die for it and the Enclave if need be; in their own fucked up little world the Enclave are patriots to the only cause they have known.

Why? 30 years have passed and that particular bunch (Moreno excepted) never happened to be particularly fanatical about it. Hell, the fact that even in Fallout 2 there were two deserters (Meyers and Henry) shows that there were people who refused to conform and escaped into the wastes.

Fallout was never about black and white divisions. Even if the Enclave is pretty damn dark grey, claiming that all Enclave members are drones without free will is just silly.

There were two deserters, so yeah, some could see through the lies; as indeed people have in every such tryanical regime. Henry didn't really have anything wrong with them ethically did he? The quest he gives you to "cure" Super Mutants and how completely unphased he is you tell him that the mutant (Marcus ) just melts.

When I say drones without free will I don't mean actually, I would imagine that on the Rig and such they have a good time, they watch "Saftey Films" aparently and wonder which one might be showing, there's the two citizens who have a ball gag and condom and they have snooker tables, casual relationships and such. My point is though that they do not question authority, Navarro had only been around for a short time (hence how the Chosen One infiltrated it), I just don't understand how Kreger's squad could really fit in amongst the typical Enclave Patrolmen of the time.

 

[Tagaziel]

Why? "Yep I was an Enclave soldier a long time ago, we were going to release a virus that would viciously kill everyone on the entire planet... I miss those days sometimes." Really doesn't strike me as something to be bandying about.

Not that overtly. Refer to crazy plans of the superiors, mention how they once had a plan that'd threaten the entire world... He just mentions that his superiors were ruthless. Certainly nothing indicating he knew about the planned biochemical genocide.

No. The racism comes off stronger because they are talking to someone they are supposed to hate. Richardson admits that an Enclave-Mainland Alliance might work for a time but they believe that the numerical pressure of the mainlanders would eventually destroy them. There's like what, 1'000 people in the Enclave? They waited too long on the Oil Rig due to paranoia and fear (and because that early after the war the pre-war Enclavers were still around) and by the time that they went onto the mainland in the 2170's they saw only the Remnants of the Masters armies.

Which still isn't any kind of excuse, not for attempting genocide on a global scale. They have consciously condemned everyone that's different to death based on, what, miniscule differences in DNA? This is not excusable. This is not, by any standards, redeemable. The Enclave had the best in technology - including monitoring equipment. They could've easily estabilished a presence on the mainland, contact nearby settlements and offer to help them. But no, they chose to destroy them. And thus, they have put themselves beyond redemption.

Do note that this applies to the Enclave as an organization. Individual members can redeem themselves if they atone for their crimes with honest work, eg. Kreger, Whitman or Gannon.

The Enclave would be completely out of it's depth when trying to solve all of the problems of the people on the mainland, just after the war the pre-war Enclavers were still alive, politicans, businessmen and generals, not regular soldiers, it makes sense that these bourgiuse bastards didn't want to leave, hell, maybe they didn't want the responsibility that soon after the war. Generations later when the power-elite that was the pre-war Enclave was dead and the new society we see had been around. Maybe the pre-war Enclave started the propaganda to convince the second-generation, who had known only the Rig, that the mainland was uninhabitable and so it was not safe to go out. I would wager that this might have been the case as even Richardson believes something similar as late as 2242.

Point is, they didn't even try. They could've examined the facts and make a rational decision to help the wasteland, but no, they decided to declare themselves the only "pure" humans and to kill everyone else. They had all the facts and chose the most vile option possible.

That's why I'm not cutting them slack. It's one thing if they are ignoramuses. It's a wholly different pair of brahmin if they have seen the fledgling civilization and afterwards made an informed decision to kill every other human on Earth.

Even the NCR is struggling, it's too swollen and has to deal with too many people in it's imperialist frenzy; predicted mass starvation in a decade as of 2281. What could a small contingent of people like the Enclave help both in 2000's, 2100's and even the 2200's? They have hydroponic bays to support themselves, presumably some purification and desalination equipment for water but aside from that and a shit-tonne of advanced military gear what do they have that could help the mainland. Unless they wanted to serve as a very small but effective army that crushed raiders then what else could they do? And even then who would they help, the NCR? Who of course have a brilliant record with smaller, elitist, technologically advanced civilisations which won't be annexed cough *Vault City*.

Vault City is just as vile as the Enclave. That aside, the Enclave could've easily helped the wastelands shortly after the war by identifying fledgling settlements and uniting them under their protection. Vertibirds could scour the land for refugees and bring them to an estabilished military outpost for processing. Using stockpiled tech they could've kick started the civilization back on their feet.

Even as the wastes rebuilt, they could've easily reintegrated themselves by either aiding the NCR from the start or negotiating an alliance, a truce with them. Vault City's problem was that they outright refused to cooperate with the NCR.

And they aren't as small as you think - they had no problem organizing a large scale excavation in Mariposa using slave labour kidnapped from Redding or organize a stable trade relationship with the Salvatores.

It's not, I am making a point that the Enclave of 2242 aren't the pre-war bourgoise, power hungry, corrupt corporate millionaries that some think that they are. They're just a group of misguided people who live in a self-perpetuating regime; no one is above the lies, which have completely ecplised the truth. I just resent it sometimes when people say things about the Enclave I don't think are fair given the world that they live in. Richardson believed that the Enclave could rebuild the world, that he could rebuild true democracy and freedom, he was willing to die for it and the Enclave if need be; in their own fucked up little world the Enclave are patriots to the only cause they have known.

You know what's fair? Judging people by their deeds. The Enclave consciously chose to create its little nightmare, a self perpetual hate machine. As such, they deserve all the flak they can get and more, especially since they nearly succeeded in wiping humanity out.

There were two deserters, so yeah, some could see through the lies; as indeed people have in every such tryanical regime. Henry didn't really have anything wrong with them ethically did he? The quest he gives you to "cure" Super Mutants and how completely unphased he is you tell him that the mutant (Marcus ) just melts.

He's a scientist, as Gannon says, more concerned with science than people. He didn't care about the Enclave as long as he could practice science and discover new methods of helping people. He at least tried to find a way to reverse mutation, rather than kill them outright. And then he's instrumental in finding a cure for Nightkin schizophrenia. In the end, his work was instrumental in improving life in the wasteland, rather than fucking it up for everyone.

When I say drones without free will I don't mean actually, I would imagine that on the Rig and such they have a good time, they watch "Saftey Films" aparently and wonder which one might be showing, there's the two citizens who have a ball gag and condom and they have snooker tables, casual relationships and such. My point is though that they do not question authority, Navarro had only been around for a short time (hence how the Chosen One infiltrated it), I just don't understand how Kreger's squad could really fit in amongst the typical Enclave Patrolmen of the time.

You do realize you're talking to Kreger nearly 40 years after the Enclave's power was broken, right? If you talked to him in 2241, rather than 2281, it'd be a different conversation. The old Kreger is wiser and more aware of life than Captain Kreger of the Enclave Armed Forces..

 

[The Enclave 86]

Not that overtly. Refer to crazy plans of the superiors, mention how they once had a plan that'd threaten the entire world... He just mentions that his superiors were ruthless. Certainly nothing indicating he knew about the planned biochemical genocide.

I still see zero reason why they shouldn't have known about it.

Point is, they didn't even try. They could've examined the facts and make a rational decision to help the wasteland, but no, they decided to declare themselves the only "pure" humans and to kill everyone else. They had all the facts and chose the most vile option possible.

That's why I'm not cutting them slack. It's one thing if they are ignoramuses. It's a wholly different pair of brahmin if they have seen the fledgling civilization and afterwards made an informed decision to kill every other human on Earth.

Your right, stupid isn't it? The only conceivable option can think of is that they never knew of the NCR and other mainland settlements having only dealt with New Reno and decided that that type of settlement was predominant, as Richardson makes a direct reference to New Reno and nowhere else... but then we have Kreger, whom I will get to later; until F:NV them simply being mis-informed held water, corrobarated with in-game quotes.

Vault City is just as vile as the Enclave. That aside, the Enclave could've easily helped the wastelands shortly after the war by identifying fledgling settlements and uniting them under their protection. Vertibirds could scour the land for refugees and bring them to an estabilished military outpost for processing. Using stockpiled tech they could've kick started the civilization back on their feet.

Even as the wastes rebuilt, they could've easily reintegrated themselves by either aiding the NCR from the start or negotiating an alliance, a truce with them. Vault City's problem was that they outright refused to cooperate with the NCR.

Again, just after the war the Enclave had no soldiers, it was still the pre-war Enclave. They probably had the most minimalist military force, pilots for the Vertibirds and maybe some kind of Black Ops unit that they might have called on for pre-war wetwork or something.

Why didn't they co-operate with the NCR? See above, at the time of Fallout 2 I think it would've been prudent to say that they didn't know it existed.

Vault City was a bad place, does that give the NCR the right to force them to join? The NCR didn't want it for the sake of the Courtyard populace (hell back in 2242 there was that big slaver pen just outside Shady Sands), they sub-contracted criminals from New Reno to then hire mercs to then pose as raiders and force Vault City to need the NCR to survive. The NCR wanted Vault City's medical tech, nothing more.

And they aren't as small as you think - they had no problem organizing a large scale excavation in Mariposa using slave labour kidnapped from Redding or organize a stable trade relationship with the Salvatores.

They made slaves excavate an old base and sent a Vertibird full of laser pistols to the Salvadores, hardly indictive of a huge presence in the region; hell the excavation of Mariposa was back in the 2170's.

You know what's fair? Judging people by their deeds. The Enclave consciously chose to create its little nightmare, a self perpetual hate machine. As such, they deserve all the flak they can get and more, especially since they nearly succeeded in wiping humanity out.

The Enclave did chose to create it's regime; but those that lived through it afterwards and until it's destruction did not and almost all didn't even realise it. Lacking any means of comparison essentially doomed it to that life.

He's a scientist, as Gannon says, more concerned with science than people. He didn't care about the Enclave as long as he could practice science and discover new methods of helping people. He at least tried to find a way to reverse mutation, rather than kill them outright. And then he's instrumental in finding a cure for Nightkin schizophrenia. In the end, his work was instrumental in improving life in the wasteland, rather than fucking it up for everyone.

He also says that it's the puzzle, regardless of the practical application that concerns Henry; he solves science because he's curious, not because he wants to help people.

You do realize you're talking to Kreger nearly 40 years after the Enclave's power was broken, right? If you talked to him in 2241, rather than 2281, it'd be a different conversation. The old Kreger is wiser and more aware of life than Captain Kreger of the Enclave Armed Forces..

Of course I do, I also know what the man and the others say;

"Kreger wasn't loyal to the Enclave, or even the ideals he fought for, he was loyal to his squad."

"Daisy wasn't loyal to the Enclave, she just loved to fly."

Henry and Johnson speak for themselves on this matter, I suppose they could have been lying to protect delicate Arcade from the truth I suppose; in-fact that is what I am going to stick to, it makes a damn site more sense.

 

[Tagaziel]

I still see zero reason why they shouldn't have known about it.

I still see zero reason why they should. There is zero evidence either way, so this is a purely speculative discussion irrelevant to the topic.

Your right, stupid isn't it? The only conceivable option can think of is that they never knew of the NCR and other mainland settlements having only dealt with New Reno and decided that that type of settlement was predominant, as Richardson makes a direct reference to New Reno and nowhere else... but then we have Kreger, whom I will get to later; until F:NV them simply being mis-informed held water, corrobarated with in-game quotes.

I do not insult you. Refrain from insulting me while posting. Otherwise, this conversation can get very unpleasant, very fast.

That said, your claim that the Enclave didn't know about the NCR is silly. The NCR is the largest political organism post-War, spanning a large part of California with 700 000 citizens. They have stakes in all the major cities north of their border, including New Reno (where they dealt with the Salvatores) and Redding (where they kidnapped miners), both of which were visited (or raided) by the Enclave. Furthermore, they were doing an excavation practically right on the doorstep of the Republic.

You are assuming that they are morons. They are not. Furthermore, they've been visiting the mainland for decades, beginning shortly after 2161, so they had to know about the NCR and that was well before Dick's presidency. They knew about the NCR all the time - they just chose to condemn it.

Again, just after the war the Enclave had no soldiers, it was still the pre-war Enclave. They probably had the most minimalist military force, pilots for the Vertibirds and maybe some kind of Black Ops unit that they might have called on for pre-war wetwork or something.

Proof?

Why didn't they co-operate with the NCR? See above, at the time of Fallout 2 I think it would've been prudent to say that they didn't know it existed.

No. Recon and espionage are the basis of all warfare. The Enclave isn't stupid and they certainly wouldn't ignore scouting the entire area, especially when there is a massive political organism over the next hill.

Vault City was a bad place, does that give the NCR the right to force them to join? The NCR didn't want it for the sake of the Courtyard populace (hell back in 2242 there was that big slaver pen just outside Shady Sands), they sub-contracted criminals from New Reno to then hire mercs to then pose as raiders and force Vault City to need the NCR to survive. The NCR wanted Vault City's medical tech, nothing more.

How is NCR's move on Vault City relevant to the discussion? Vault City is vile, I would sympathize with it and defend them against the NCR if it wasn't a city of stuck up, elitist bigots refusing to share their wealth with those worse off than them. And then there's their approach to ghouls and the whole "shoot on sight" policy. Vault City, much like the Enclave, deserved to get the short end of the stick.

They made slaves excavate an old base and sent a Vertibird full of laser pistols to the Salvadores, hardly indictive of a huge presence in the region; hell the excavation of Mariposa was back in the 2170's.

Actually, no, it wasn't. Mariposa was excavated in 2236.

You should read my post more carefully however. I was referring to the fact that they aren't as small as you make them out to be. They also have great power projection capabilities, far greater than the NCR or the Brotherhood, which allows them to maintain a presence in the region.

The Enclave did chose to create it's regime; but those that lived through it afterwards and until it's destruction did not and almost all didn't even realise it. Lacking any means of comparison essentially doomed it to that life.

Which does not absolve them of responsibility for their actions. They weren't a crowd of lunatics - they had perfectly functional brains, all it took was taking a moment to think about their actions. It only takes about five minutes to show Curling the error of his ways - by making him think.

He also says that it's the puzzle, regardless of the practical application that concerns Henry; he solves science because he's curious, not because he wants to help people.

So? As long as his work helps people, who are you to judge him?

Henry and Johnson speak for themselves on this matter, I suppose they could have been lying to protect delicate Arcade from the truth I suppose; in-fact that is what I am going to stick to, it makes a damn site more sense.

Maybe. Don't forget that you're talking about people for whom the Enclave was a big part of their lives... forty years ago. That's more than a half of their lifespan.

 

[The Enclave 86]

I do not insult you. Refrain from insulting me while posting. Otherwise, this conversation can get very unpleasant, very fast.

I wasn't I was agreeing with you that it would be stupid if they had indeed seen some of the more advanced nations.

That said, your claim that the Enclave didn't know about the NCR is silly. The NCR is the largest political organism post-War, spanning a large part of California with 700 000 citizens. They have stakes in all the major cities north of their border, including New Reno (where they dealt with the Salvatores) and Redding (where they kidnapped miners), both of which were visited (or raided) by the Enclave. Furthermore, they were doing an excavation practically right on the doorstep of the Republic.

I doubt that the NCR stopped to chat with the Salvadores or the miner from Redding (which they did kidnapp 70 years prior to Fallout 2, see below). We see few signs of NCR above their city, sure people mention them, but again, the Enclave aren't exactly talking to these people. The NCR didn't even know where Vault 13 was, and that was pretty close by, I don't think that they had people as far as Mariposa.

Proof?

There is zero evidence either way, so this is a purely speculative discussion irrelevant to the topic.

Why would the Enclave clue in members of the US Army and take them with them, seems risky and pointless. They might have their own staff of people for some of the more shadier activies that they were involved in but seeing as how they controlled the Government I doubt that they had their own, attention drawing, private army.

No. Recon and espionage are the basis of all warfare. The Enclave isn't stupid and they certainly wouldn't ignore scouting the entire area, especially when there is a massive political organism over the next hill.

You are assuming that they are morons. They are not. Furthermore, they've been visiting the mainland for decades, beginning shortly after 2161, so they had to know about the NCR and that was well before Dick's presidency. They knew about the NCR all the time - they just chose to condemn it.

Actually, no, it wasn't. Mariposa was excavated in 2236.

{240}{prs41}{We found a research facility in operational shape about 70 years ago. A former military base that had been used to research a special virus.}

I believe that the Enclave's mind was set-up long before 2242 and, therefore, long before the NCR was anywhere near a powerful force; they simply didn't go that far because, eventually, their virus would kill everyone. They just sat back and developed the virus, the vaccine and whatever else; not bothering to conduct any external operations outside of dropping off some laser pistols to the Salvadores once in a while.

That quote on 2236 comes from the Fallout Bibles timeline, is that still canonical? Besides, the fact that Richardson mentions that they found the Base in 2170's is him refering to getting the virus, otherwise he would have said something refering to two years ago.

You should read my post more carefully however. I was referring to the fact that they aren't as small as you make them out to be. They also have great power projection capabilities, far greater than the NCR or the Brotherhood, which allows them to maintain a presence in the region.

Small? How is a thousand people on an Oil Rig small? They have the power to project themselves but no reason to do so. Why should they go down to LA, or the Hub or as far out as the NCR?

Which does not absolve them of responsibility for their actions. They weren't a crowd of lunatics - they had perfectly functional brains, all it took was taking a moment to think about their actions. It only takes about five minutes to show Curling the error of his ways - by making him think.

Yeah, the most brilliant genetisist in the Enclave apparently never considered that "Evolution is natural" so that there makes him destroy all of his own work and kill everyone whom, five minutes ago, were his fellow citizens. That doesn't strike you as silly? Besides think about what, you ask a Enclave Citizen, "Do you think that killing everyone on the mainland is right?" What exactly do you expect to hear? They don't know the people on the mainland and judging from the soldiers quotes they probably think nothing but evil; hell, one of the soldier quotes is:

"It's your kind that destroyed this mighty nation!"

The people of the Enclave shouldn't care, I don't get how it is that some swear there loyalty over and some just cruise along not caring either way.

Besides, I thought that nobody knew of the Project outside of the elite .

So? As long as his work helps people, who are you to judge him?

I'm not, I am saying that he didn't desert from the Enclave because he felt that they were unethical because he was equally as so.

 

[Crni Vuk]

John Rabe was a Nazi (he called him self that) he believed in Hitler (so he said).

Yet. He helped countless of Chinese people from the Japanese army while he had no reason to that and it was considered a German Allie

World is not really that simple.

 

[Tagaziel]

I wasn't I was agreeing with you that it would be stupid if they had indeed seen some of the more advanced nations.

Whoops, must've been an error in my brain. Sorry.

I doubt that the NCR stopped to chat with the Salvadores or the miner from Redding (which they did kidnapp 70 years prior to Fallout 2, see below). We see few signs of NCR above their city, sure people mention them, but again, the Enclave aren't exactly talking to these people. The NCR didn't even know where Vault 13 was, and that was pretty close by, I don't think that they had people as far as Mariposa.

Vault 13 was hidden pretty well. Mariposa is a facility with an external compound, so it's far easier to locate. That said, you are quite simply wrong. Mariposa was excavated in 2236, check the timeline in the Fallout bible. Furthermore, if it was excavated in 2170, why is there Melchior Jr. in Redding who misses his father, who was abducted as a slave?

Why would the Enclave clue in members of the US Army and take them with them, seems risky and pointless. They might have their own staff of people for some of the more shadier activies that they were involved in but seeing as how they controlled the Government I doubt that they had their own, attention drawing, private army.

Because part of the Enclave comes from the military-industrial complex and it's generally a good idea to have a couple hundred Marines at your disposal?

{240}{prs41}{We found a research facility in operational shape about 70 years ago. A former military base that had been used to research a special virus.}

He says they found it. Not excavated. The excavation happened in 2236, again, check the timeline provided by MCA in the Fallout Bible. This also invalidates much of your later post, especially when you factor in Melchior and his son.

Small? How is a thousand people on an Oil Rig small? They have the power to project themselves but no reason to do so. Why should they go down to LA, or the Hub or as far out as the NCR?

Let's see: if they weren't fixated on killing everyone else, maybe to strike a deal with the NCR, an alliance?

Which does not absolve them of responsibility for their actions. They weren't a crowd of lunatics - they had perfectly functional brains, all it took was taking a moment to think about their actions. It only takes about five minutes to show Curling the error of his ways - by making him think.

Yeah, the most brilliant genetisist in the Enclave apparently never considered that "Evolution is natural" so that there makes him destroy all of his own work and kill everyone whom, five minutes ago, were his fellow citizens. That doesn't strike you as silly?

Nope. It strikes me as an example of how the Enclave, in its single minded pursuit of its deluded dream of eradicating everyone else, has forgot common sense and logic.

Besides think about what, you ask a Enclave Citizen, "Do you think that killing everyone on the mainland is right?" What exactly do you expect to hear? They don't know the people on the mainland and judging from the soldiers quotes they probably think nothing but evil; hell, one of the soldier quotes is:

I wouldn't be the one asking, I'd be the one killing them for willful ignorance and lack of critical thought.

The people of the Enclave shouldn't care, I don't get how it is that some swear there loyalty over and some just cruise along not caring either way.

That's life.

So? As long as his work helps people, who are you to judge him?

I'm not, I am saying that he didn't desert from the Enclave because he felt that they were unethical because he was equally as so.

How so? Last I read, he didn't care about anything else than science - that's pretty far from attempting to commit genocide on a total scale, especially since Henry's research eventually leads to a discovery of a cure for Nightkin.