New dev diary on Fallout 3 site

[TwinkieGorilla]

Hey look, we're only 5 pages in this discussion before you notice enough to roll your eyes. Hey guy, this is important stuff!

um, yeah. i actually already posted something about the actual topic that WASN'T just juvenile arguing about what the origins or aesthetic principals of a true "orc" are. but carry on, if it's really that important.

 

[Grimhound]

I actually like the majority of what was presented. I like that they infer they'll be integrating a complex accessory system into the game so you can personalize your character, and the majority of the concept art is rather appealing. My only real issue is the design for the Deathclaw they showed. Honestly, I feel they're trying to base it on a Tarrasque like the original was, as I feel they're scared and don't want to deviate in fear of a 'furry deathclaw' screwup.

By the way, the 'crab person' might've been inspired by Fallout 2's 'Bug Men'. Also happens that Maryland has a big cultural thing when it comes to crab, I guess.

 

[Morbus]

How is that an orc? You know what an orc is, right? The real ones, not those fake tolkien ones, much less peterson's orcs...

Do you know what an Orc is, Morbus?

A mythical otherworldly creature from Nordic (Gaelic?) mythology.

Oh, you mean a real orc. Gotcha.

That's what I said

Fantasy orcs = Tolkien's interpretation 99 times out of 100. Do you even have a point here, or are you just orcing me?.

Lol, just messing around with the concept. Besides, Tolkien doesn't have one single orc interpretation/description. Throughout his work you can see orcs being described differently in appearance. And of course his orcs have little in common with the real supermutants. They don't look the same, they don't work the same way, they have different features. You calling a (real) supermutant an orc is like me calling a cave troll a goblin. They are ugly and stupid or whatever, but they are NOT the same thing. Unlike bethesda's supermutants, who are much like huruk-hai in some aspects, although a bit different in others. They still bear a strange resemblance, and have very little in common with the real supermutants.

Wikipedia disagrees that orcs are not a part of fallout:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc

3.19

Can't see anything.

 

[Ureshi]

Hulk looks like Harry because Harry and Hulk are Mutated HUMANS

The Orcs are mutated ELVES.....


Bethesda Supermutants are mutated elves.. they suck

Sorry for my english

 

[UniversalWolf]

Anyone who wouldn't jump at a chance to get in on a discussion about what constitutes a proper orc has no heart...er, life.

Personally I've never thought Fallout supermutants look like orcs; I mean, they kind of do, but not enough for me to make a mental connection. For one thing they're too big - more like ogre or troll size. Orcs are usually evil human analogs, and thus a little bigger, but not a lot bigger. Also, supermutants do not have pointy ears or fangs/tusks, which orcs always seem to have. Supermutants are very clearly bloated, misshapen humans, not a different species.

The really odd thing is that Marcus's talking head is green, but his isometric representation has yellow skin.

Therefore, all supermutants in FINO should have different colors for the head any the body. Otherwise it sucks!

 

[terebikun]

My only real issue is the design for the Deathclaw they showed. Honestly, I feel they're trying to base it on a Tarrasque like the original was, as I feel they're scared and don't want to deviate in fear of a 'furry deathclaw' screwup.

Apparently they should've been scared, as this deathclaw is being jumped upon for not having a toothy grin, for not having toes of the exact same relative shape and size, for having a torso that is both too big and too small, for legs that are too big and too small, and being too spiny. Those damn artists, simultaneously changing too much and not changing enough.

Personally I've never thought Fallout supermutants look like orcs; I mean, they kind of do, but not enough for me to make a mental connection. For one thing they're too big - more like ogre or troll size. Orcs are usually evil human analogs, and thus a little bigger, but not a lot bigger. Also, supermutants do not have pointy ears or fangs/tusks, which orcs always seem to have. Supermutants are very clearly bloated, misshapen humans, not a different species.

The supermutants looked like orcs to me first time I saw them, same as ghouls looked like zombies, rats in the starting area looked like, well, rats in the starting area. But as I got engrossed in the game and its lore, I came to appreciate them for what they actually were. So I have no problem with the new guy; he's the Uruk-Hai to the old supermutant's orc design. I already know about the character of the supermutants from the previous game(s), and it isn't a huge stretch to associate the new design with that. I mean, when the new design doesn't look like a bloated, misshapen human, let me know.

 

[Sander]

There's a difference, though.

The classic Fallout Super Mutant was big, sluggish, hulking, bent over.

The new Bethesda style Super Mutants looks much more agile, lean and, well, like the modern movie and videogame orcs.

 

[Jacen]

^ Which of course leads to the question: Why call them super mutants at all? But that is basically the same as asking why is the game called Fallout 3...

Anyway, like most people I like part of the concept art, and dislike the rest. The new Super mutants being my main dislike.

 

[Brother None]

Apparently they should've been scared, as this deathclaw is being jumped upon for not having a toothy grin, for not having toes of the exact same relative shape and size, for having a torso that is both too big and too small, for legs that are too big and too small, and being too spiny. Those damn artists, simultaneously changing too much and not changing enough.

Uh-huh.

Because all criticism is the same, and criticizing style deviations and style evolving is exactly the same thing. Saying that Mr Handy having a British accent is somewhat silly is exactly the same thing as saying he shouldn't be changed at all.

Rolling my eyes here, joe.

 

[Rahungry]

I'll agree the Super Mutants shown so far look a lot different from the previous games, but when using "too orc-like" as the main criticism I gotta ask:

How is that not an orc?

1.Put some hair on the guy.
2. Make his skin a normal color. From any range, light to brown.
3. Take away does little deformitys.
And you got yourself a normal guy.

Put some hair, and some normal skin color on this one. And you got still have an ORC.

 

[Bodybag]

1.Put some hair on the guy.
2. Make his skin a normal color. From any range, light to brown.
3. Take away does little deformitys.
And you got yourself a normal guy.

Normal where? Not even in the American South is the thing you describe "normal."

Put some hair, and some normal skin color on this one. And you got still have an ORC.

Notice how you left out the subtraction step from this equation? Also: that's an URUK-HAI. No, no, no... none of this is adding up!

 

[Brother None]

Orcs generally are also based on human faces, so it's not actually that bit that makes the difference.

Still, supermutant faces are pretty similar wherever you see them, because they're representative of what they are (as in, the physiognomy fits): small cranium, narrow eyes, big jowels. On the other hand, Adam's supermutants' faces are just...bigger than normal faces. But not disproportionate. Look at this big face in the middle, how is that not just, I dunno, a barbarian in a comic book? He has big jowels, sure, but not so that he's clearly not human. Kinda different from mutants that have to use straps to hold their face up and have a chin you could put twice their cranium in.

The same way as you should view this whole "orc" thing as just looking for words to sum up all these changes, "hulk" is just a base of comparison. It doesn't actually mean the old supermutants were identical the Hulk, it means that you can see in some models of the Hulk (not all, he's gone through some changes) that he would have a muscle-growth disproportionate to skeletal growth as well as not equal in all places. This is also missing in Adam's supermutants, although they do look more hunching than the final product I saw in the demo.

For an odd basis of comparison, look at these guys

Adam's interpretation is closer to the two left guys, still clearly human. The original ones are closer (obviously, not identical, but closer) to the guy on the right (including, note, the head-to-body proportions).

 

[Morbus]

Yup, those are supermutants.

 

[terebikun]

There's a difference, though.

The classic Fallout Super Mutant was big, sluggish, hulking, bent over.

The new Bethesda style Super Mutants looks much more agile, lean and, well, like the modern movie and videogame orcs.

Top left and middle left don't look "big, sluggish, hulking, bent over" to you?

Uh-huh.

Because all criticism is the same, and criticizing style deviations and style evolving is exactly the same thing. Saying that Mr Handy having a British accent is somewhat silly is exactly the same thing as saying he shouldn't be changed at all.

Rolling my eyes here, joe.

What? One of my previous points was that the criticisms for various things weren't the same, and were in fact often contradictory. For a forum that's claimed to have distilled Fallout to its essence or whatever, there seems to be a lot of dispute over what that actually is. The difference between style deviation and style evolution is a matter of semantics and subjective opinion, but I would consider what they've done with the super mutants to be evolving the style, and look at the reaction that's had. I'm not sure where your Mr. Handy analogy is coming from, but having not heard his British accent or really even seen him other than possibly in the background of a single screenshot, I don't think that's an argument I want to get engrossed in.

Maybe rolling your eyes so much is what's got you seeing steampunk.

 

[Sander]

Top left and middle left don't look "big, sluggish, hulking, bent over" to you?

Not anywhere near Fallout, no.

It's style is also entirely different. Look at the loincloth and the dozens of skulls.

 

[Mutoes]

By the way those bigger supermutants in this picture ( though only one of them is shown full) http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=2797
The three ones in the left
I got feeling those are behemoth designs, theyre very big compared to others and the head that got that crazy look reminds me of the behemoth weve seen in those ingame screenshots.

But just a guess

 

[terebikun]

Not anywhere near Fallout, no.

It's style is also entirely different. Look at the loincloth and the dozens of skulls.

See, now what does that mean, "not anywhere near fallout no"? The guys I've pointed it out are big (many times bigger than a cow, apparently), look pretty sluggish in that they're burly with poor posture (usually a bad mix for movin'), hulking sure (they must be a couple times the size of a man, and they're pretty damn buff), and they're bent over at an almost 90 degree angle. So how is that less "big, hulking, sluggish, bent over" than Fallout?

As for the loincloth and skulls, well, the loincloth appears to be piecemeal metal clothing, fitting in with the rest of his design, and the skulls, well, he's mean I guess. Since we actually haven't seen this guy in-game I'm going to stop talking about him, as it's very possible he doesn't exist, or has a weird backstory. But I will reiterate my point, that I think he matches pretty well your specifications.

 

[Logan]

That's some pretty good art, a shame it doesnt look like fallout.
I should mention that I'm impressed with the hand made weaponry(except the sword, that's dumb), I really liked it.

BUT

We're talking about Fallout, and THAT does NOT look like it. It looks like another Post Apoc Game, but NOT fallout.

 

[Sander]

See, now what does that mean, "not anywhere near fallout no"? The guys I've pointed it out are big (many times bigger than a cow, apparently), look pretty sluggish in that they're burly with poor posture (usually a bad mix for movin'), hulking sure (they must be a couple times the size of a man, and they're pretty damn buff), and they're bent over at an almost 90 degree angle. So how is that less "big, hulking, sluggish, bent over" than Fallout?

Please stop comparing the new designs to cows and humans and instead compare them to the actual Super Mutants featured in Fallout 1 when trying to conjure up an argument.

 

[Continuum]

There's obvious difference between Super Mutants from FO/FO2 and those shitty orcs from FO3. The art direction is completely different, I don't know why some people are not able to see that...

Anyway,

I wonder how Super Orcs are animated... Like normal humans? Original Super Mutants have very stylish and cool way of moving. Could someone who saw the demonstration of FO3 can say something about this matter?

Thanks