NFL 2009

I recognize how negative fans' backbiting can adversely effect a team. And I see the foolishness of people who alternately slag guys like Donovan and Eli one minute and then praise them the next. I actually get some sick delight out of watching other teams implode such. Schadenfreude.

But I really don't see a systemic effort on the part of ownership to promote some kind of asshole agenda. Where do you see this? And why does this attitude not extend south of the Mason-Dixon? Can the Packers not be called assholes for the Favre departure? How about Denver and Cutler?
Teams exist to make money and win games. They have to make tough decisions under the microscope of the ever more ubiquitous sports media. It's a hyper-competitive field where merit and money rules. If you want to succeed you have to play by those rules.

What I find more and more frustrating is with more media they need to practically overblow and magnify little things to create drama and controversy for ratings. The draft is a perfect example. The other, and it happens sooner and sooner, is when they starting crowning or burying teams like 3 weeks into the season.

Please don't tell me you actually think this has anything to do with the personality of the fans, rather than the existing success of their teams.
Right, I'm saying it's all history.
Again put yourself in a Jets fan's shoes. Now button up that top button so we don't need to see your gold chains you spacone. Seriously, if you've been a Jets fan over the past 15-20 years, you'd almost have to be irrational to not think negatively. It's a self perpetuating cycle sure, but the failure has more to do with inept ownership, management and coaching than it does destructive fans.

Pittsburg fans are probably a pretty satisfied lot. Miami fans - who cares about football when you live in Miami? I think there's a huge correlation between a franchises' success and the negativity of their fanbase.

James Harrison fucking suplexing me on my head? I wasn't aware that James Harrison targets emotionally supportive fans to tackle in the tribunes, I could've sworn he mostly, y'know, played on the field. Because you seem to have missed that I'm not talking about how players act on the field, at all.
No, I meant how do emotionally supportive fans facilitate you the player when James Harrison suplexes you on your head. I think you're overrating emotional support. I cheer for my team, I get superstitious and wear particular things on game day during streaks, hell I've even prayed during games. It doesn't make a difference, it just satisfies some kind of OCD we as fans have with these little rituals we go through (coincidence that NFL day is Sunday?). Do people really paint their faces/chests and brave the snow because they think it will help their team? That's nuts. No, they are caught up in the excitement and want to be a part of it.

When the ball is snapped, the adrenaline is flowing, and you've got tunnel vision, the crowd's support is irrelevant. These guys have been going through the motions all their lives, come game time, it's all instinct, reaction, training, execution. And toughness. I'm sure they appreciate "emotional support" but I'm highly dubious of it's actual effect on their performance.


They're not being paid to take public abuse. That's just a free bonus.
That sword cuts both ways though. I mean, there's quite a few perks to being a pro athlete too.

The only cases where I really have sympathy is Bill Buckner in Boston, and that poor kid Bartman in Chicago. Buckner was finally let off the hook. But that poor Bartman kid should not have to bear that cross.
Hey at least we don't kill each other like soccer fans though.

edit:
Let's give the last word on the asshole topic to Massachusetts' poster child for the angry sports fan.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QQNYWFdWRk[/youtube][/youtube]
 
Cimmerian Nights said:
But I really don't see a systemic effort on the part of ownership to promote some kind of asshole agenda.

Never talked about the owners, so don't ask me.

Cimmerian Nights said:
Seriously, if you've been a Jets fan over the past 15-20 years, you'd almost have to be irrational to not think negatively. It's a self perpetuating cycle sure, but the failure has more to do with inept ownership, management and coaching than it does destructive fans.

Naturally, but destructive fans don't help. Jets is a franchise of futility, but how futile? More futile than the Lions? Care to compare their behaviour to that of the #1 futile franchise prior to this year, the Arizona Cardinals?

Cimmerian Nights said:
I think there's a huge correlation between a franchises' success and the negativity of their fanbase.

There is a correlation, I doubt it's huge. Philly may not have won anything but they've been amongst the overall top contenders since McNabb stepped up more or less. I can understand why, without a win, that's not hugely satisfying, but neither is it a huge lack of success.

Cimmerian Nights said:
I think you're overrating emotional support.

But I haven't talked about how emotional support influences players at all, so how can I be overrating it, if I haven't rated it :P

I don't really care about emotional support either way, I don't think it does much, but I know emotional attacks do.

But everything I've said so far are "it is what it is" statements. I have not indicated I find the attitude of Pack fans superior to that of Giants fans because I don't think that. I just think one group is supportive and the other a bunch of assholes. No value statements towards ownership, players, rate of success implied, not even remotely. They're just assholes.

The only clear point of analysis I can offer on that is that if there entire Jets team and FO were moved to Arizona, Sanchez would have a bigger chance to succeed without an emotional breakdown there than in New York. And that just is what it is.

Cimmerian Nights said:
That sword cuts both ways though. I mean, there's quite a few perks to being a pro athlete too.

Yes. And? The thing is that the only claim you have on them is them doing their job for the money they're paid. You can't really find rational underpinnings for either idolizing or hating them.

Cimmerian Nights said:
Hey at least we don't kill each other like soccer fans though.

We hardly do that anymore.
 
For what it's worth, Raji has been playing both NT and DE in rookie camp. It makes me think they're going to be moving him (and everyone else) around quite a bit. I know they've already said the defense is going to be a hybrid, and they'll shift to 4-3 and other formations depending on the situation.

McCarthy loves to do things like that. When they played the Colts last year they brought out a 4-2-5 for most of the game so Woodson could follow Reggie Wayne around all day. If nothing else it should be interesting to watch.
 
Naturally, but destructive fans don't help. Jets is a franchise of futility, but how futile? More futile than the Lions? Care to compare their behaviour to that of the #1 futile franchise prior to this year, the Arizona Cardinals?
You're right AZ fans didn't complain at all, they just ignored the team completely. How many years have we seen Sun Devil Stadium sit half-empty with disinterested fans. Remeber the LA Rams, Raiders in the Colliseum? People would go to the game to work on their tan, not watch football. The Jets might be douchebags, but they support their team either way.

That AZ, SoCal, So. Florida fan is a whole 'nother beast. They live in the most beautful, laid back, places with year 'round perfect weather. Who cares about football when you can go to the beach, or water ski, or ride your motorcycle etc. In the north, come autumn, we can't do those things. The temperature drops. We have to rake leaves and shovel snow out our driveways. Women stop wearing scanty clothes. No wonder we are so pissed off.

You can't really find rational underpinnings for either idolizing or hating them.
For grown men who make their living chasing around an inflated pigskin in the mud?
No, not really.
 
yer. and you get REALLY far up north where all you have to do is eat snow and beat your wife and/or farm animals and you start seeing houses painted the color of your team.

(i know this because of snowboarding trips only)
 
Cimmerian Nights said:
(don't think I won't take gloating pics in front of the hardware and post them here :P)
Forgive my self-indulgence.
dsc06129.jpg

dsc06121.jpg
 
[url=http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_corner/post/Do-we-need-to-fix-the-rookie-salary-scale-Eh-m?urn=nfl said:
Yahoo Sports[/url]]With Matthew Stafford set to make more money than Tom Brady in 2009
What is Detroit thinking? It's like their digging the hole even further. Is Stafford even going to start this year - and you're going to pay him more than Brady? They are nuts, best case scenario, what do you get out of Stafford to justify this?


Anybody see that Ernie Davis "The Express" movie?
I watched it last night and found it pretty good without being a totally cliched "rah-rah" sports movie like I was expecting. It kind of bothered me that it was based on a non-fiction book but the cover says "Inspired by true events" - which to me means, "we shoe-horned some residual shit into our pre-existing Hollywood sports movie formula." The civil rights shit was typical Hollywood heavy-handed I think, the 50s were rascist? No shit.
I'd almost like to read the book so I could get a better sense of what actually happened and what was concocted to make a true story smoother/more dramatic. I wish they had included more of Jim Brown, he's such a righteous motherfucker.
Really good football movie, one hell of a perseverant human being for sure. It just left me questioning how much was factual and how much embellished.

It belong's up there with Brian's Song.

So weird to see an actor playing Art Model.
And to think that this guy Davis would've shared carries with Jim Brown in the same backfield - scary.

TwinkieGorilla said:
your shirt is tucked in really strangely.
my wife said the same thing. :oops:


RIP Jack Kemp
 
Cimmerian Nights said:
What is Detroit thinking?

They're not thinking anything, it's how the rookie pay scale works. You either top what last year's #1 got (unless maybe if he's in a less high-paying position, like LB instead of OLT or QB) or you can forget signing your player. Hardly Detroit's fault.

Also, OH GOD WILL THE TORMENT NEVER END.
 
Oh God...

We're going to be doing this until that guy's dead, aren't we? When he's 80 and in a wheelchair, we'll still have pre-season rumblings of him returning to play for Detroit...

EDIT: Apro-friggin-pos
 
Being that the talk is about the Vikes again, you have to wonder what Favre's motivation is. He must really want to stick it to the Packers, huh? What else can it be?

The thing is, the league overexpanded, there are not 32 quality starting caliber QBs, and there will be even fewer once the season gets rolling with injuries.
Brett Favre can be a servicable QB, even more so if he'd rein it in and stop being such a cowboy. He's all kinds of streaky and inconsistant
The Jets thing was a fiasco, you can't join a team 10 days before week one and not miss a beat.

If Favre actually puts in some off-season work, he could be a better than average QB next year. Streaky as all hell, but above average. There are a lot worse starting QBs out there.

They're not thinking anything, it's how the rookie pay scale works. You either ...
Or you trade yourself right out of a weak 1st round.
Detroit is in rebuild mode - perpetually. It's going to take years to turn it around. What's their rush? Stafford isn't some one-of-a-kind once-in-a-generation future Joe Montana QB. Trade out and snatch Tim Tebow next year . :P Upwards and onward Lions!
 
Cimmerian Nights said:
He must really want to stick it to the Packers, huh?

's

Cimmerian Nights said:
Or you trade yourself right out of a weak 1st round.

Uh...who could they have traded 1st overall to?

Cleveland leapt on the opportunity to trade down, but they only could because the NY Jets are being run by a bunch of retards who couldn't find their ass in the dark without assistance and who think Sanchez is a top-tier QB (hint: he's not. And neither is Stafford, but at least Stafford is NFL-ready(ier)).

This goes back to what was said pre-draft: personally, I would've loved, LOVED it if the entire top 5 demonstratively just let the clock run out on them as a kind of "fuck you" to league management. And I would've loved to see the Hawks draft out of their 4th pick. Maybe if the Jets had fallen for the whole "we like Sanchez" bit of connivery like the press did it coulda happened, but eh...

Maybe Detroit should've gone safer and done an OL upgrade, one could argue for that, but get out of 1st overall? Who the hell wants to draft 1st overall? That's the worst position to draft in, in the entire draft.
 
Brother None said:
Uh...who could they have traded 1st overall to?
Well, they certainly wouldn't get commensurate value back on it, but do they think they're will on that Stafford contract? Lesser or two evils for sure.

personally, I would've loved, LOVED it if the entire top 5 demonstratively just let the clock run out on them as a kind of "fuck you" to league management.
Teams are too scared to take a stand like that. I find it interesting how over the years it's been the players that get drafted and then refuse to sign/play for that team. And because they are NFL golden boys like Eli Manning, the league is only too willing to accommodate their whims. The rules don't apply to everyone you see. Manning and his daddy drafted himself.

Who the hell wants to draft 1st overall? That's the worst position to draft in, in the entire draft.
This year was particularly weak. But historically speaking, that's not true. Elway, Aikman, Peyton Manning, Carson Palmer. Worth their weight in gold. Premature to predict Stafford's future, but he has a looooooong way to go for sure.
 
the fuck does 'apostrophe s' mean, kharn?

also, fucking hell. can the real slim shady please retire, please retire, please retire? goddammit. i don't want to see him in a fucking Vikings uniform ffs.
 
I don't care if he comes back, just not in my division. He fucked the balance of power in the AFC east over last year. Sending Pennington to Miami and turning them from a 1 win team into division leaders by laying down for them in week 17 so the Pats got left out in the cold with 11 wins. He got Mangini fired, who probably never wanted Favre, but it was his head on the chopping block because of Brett's inexplicably stupid INTs. And then he walks away from it all.

I'll be happy to sit back and watch him fuck over some other division, just not here please.
 
I wouldn't expect him to say otherwise. He's from the Belichik school of public relations, meaning when you talk at all, it's in worthless, innocuous, canned answers.
Those guys don't air their grievances publicly, ever.
Jets have a very hands on owner, and very active GM in Tannenbaum, I doubt Manigni had much input, it was more of a front-office business decision than a on-the-field football move (hello jersey and PSL sales!).
 
Cimmerian Nights said:
Well, they certainly wouldn't get commensurate value back on it, but do they think they're will on that Stafford contract? Lesser or two evils for sure.

The draft value chart needs to be canned anyway.

That said, nobody wanted the Stafford contract. Not Detroit, not anyone else, Detroit is just getting punished for sucking so bad. A lesser of two evils indicates Detroit had a choice. I don't see it. Oakland is always an option because their GM is insane, but there was no speedy WR ranked that high, so they could mispick their WR on their own pick. Washington maybe? I doubt it, Snyder didn't love Stafford.

Cimmerian Nights said:
This year was particularly weak. But historically speaking, that's not true. Elway, Aikman, Peyton Manning, Carson Palmer. Worth their weight in gold. Premature to predict Stafford's future, but he has a looooooong way to go for sure.

Plenty of picks worth their weight in gold 1st overall, that's not the point, the point is Stafford is now one of the highest (not the highest, I don't think, Peyton still makes more no?) paid football players out there with a bust rate of at least 50%. Nevermind that you can get some good shit out of there, the contract strain on the first 5 picks means that right now, getting a top pick is a bad thing, not a good thing.

T said:
the fuck does 'apostrophe s' mean, kharn?

Yes.
 
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