Atomic Postman
Vault Archives Overseer
With the caveat that the first is intentionally twisted and incorrect. Which makes it not that stupid.
RangerBoo Tortures Herself Playing The Frontier
- Thread starter RangerBoo
- Start date
With the caveat that the first is intentionally twisted and incorrect. Which makes it not that stupid.
I don't know about that. I might be biased. I just didn't like "Kaisar" as a character, how he was presented in the game and written. He was simply illogical in my opinion and also what he apparantly achieved. I don't know. It just felt to me like they tried to make a "complex" sort of he-has-good-intentions-villain or something. A grey character. Or what ever. But at the end of the day he's just slaver where Obsidian tried to ... I don't know what they tried to achieve. What adds insult to that is that they actually achieved in writing a somewhat deep character with house. So yeah, in my opinion the answer given in that image is "stupid". Not because of the character but by Obsidians failure to well write this part well.
Señor Wally
Mildly Dipped
Whether it's stupid fake philosophy or not is addressed in game. Listening to Caesar drives a real academic like Arcade mad. But the point is that there is an internal logic. It's up to the player to determine how serious he's being because there are frequent accusations by characters that Caesar is talking a lot of shit. But that's what fascism and ultranationalism often is: a wild set of justifications, sometimes rooted in some reality and sometimes wrapped up in wild mysticism.
Basically, the Legion being philosophical is a framing BY Caesar, which makes sense. Whether he has any point should be left to the player. The game makes no judgement itself nor frames it as sane or anything but brutal.
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Norzan
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
That's the difference between the Legion and the Institute. The Legion present their ideologies and it's up to the player if they are stupid or not. The Institute is just retarded, doing things that actively sabotage their plans.
Atomic Postman
Vault Archives Overseer
They actually said the opposite. They had three grey moral choices in NCR, House and Anarchy and wanted the Legion to reflect the kind of evil regimes that did and do exist in real life that aren't "morally grey". The Legion are villainous but what makes them not stupid is that they are a believable repulsive regime. They tick many boxes of ur-fascism and Caesar as a character is very well written as a maniacal tyrant deliberately twisting philosophy and historical analogues to justify himself and his regime. As someone pointed out they literally have an actual academic character call him full of crap because he is. The Legion were not attempts to make a morally grey faction, they were an attempt to make a repulsive regime that reflected elements of our own history and our own life in the way that "War, War Never Changes" is supposed to evoke.
They don't carry the premise to fruition due to underdevelopment but moral greyness was not the problem of the Legion.
Caesar was just what he was. A brutal dictator who, as I say to everyone who questions what he accomplished, conquered the vast majority of the Midwest, and made it safer than NCR territory.
People always get hung up on “Muh slavery”, but that’s just it, Legion isn’t meant to be this progressive, forward thinking democratic group.
They’re philosophical slavers.
No more, no less.
To get hung up on their failings to meet our own cultural standards and nuances, and then say the factually wrong statement “and they didn’t accomplish anything” is to ignore the point of the Legion and Caesar’s rule of it.
And this is where I disagree. Because in my opinion there isn't.
You have the NCR, You have House, you have the Khans, some of the smaller factions as well. And they all make sense to me. But the Legion doesn't. And that has a lot to do with the presentation and they are simply rushed ... not well written.
Look I do not care what Arcades opinion are on them or what the legion does in Legion "teritory". The game it self, the game design behind the Legion is in my opinion totally silly. Yes yes yes they are super duper awesome in their occupied regions. If only the game would show us that ...
Here is the point when you compare the Legion with House or the NCR they are far more fleshed out with far more nuances, well written characters, quests and the like. The Legion is thrown in like an afterthought which makes them almost comical villains and Obsidian(not the game!) is trying to maskerade this.
I would have prefered if they just made the Legion into a one dimensional enemy/force actually like the Enclave in Fallout 2 for example that the player has simply to overcome more like a natural force rather than what they tried to achieve here with all this pseudo philosophical talk that way you would leave more to the imagination of the player anyway and you kinda decide between House, the NCR and a free Vegas.
What ever if Obsidian simply had no clue where to go with the Legion of they didn't have enough time to flash them out properly, I don't know. But it doesn't matter in the end. They just don't work to me when compared with the other factions and choices. I pretty much liked every story aspect of the game except for the Legion because of they came of almost like comic villians. It was schlock. Pure and simple.
Señor Wally
Mildly Dipped
I didn't say they were awesome in their own territories. You're addressing someone else. Whether or not it makes sense to you, I don't think is the point. Fascism and radicalism doesn't make sense to ME, but it exists still. And portraying that honestly is more important than shoving in "morally grey" components for the sake of it. It is what it is and if you don't agree with it, well then you have three endings where they are the antagonists. And yeah, the other factions are more fleshed out... agree. I didn't say they weren't. I was saying that you misinterpreted the framing of the Legion: that being philosophical was the games expressed intentioned, rather than the more likely scenario of it being a bunch of Caesar myths to enforce his regime and ideas.
Arcade is important to the conversation because it reinforces my point that there is no grand framing that intends to color the Legion as being as "grey" as the others.
I don't know if they are comical villains. They really aren't much different from IRL Isis, honestly. I don't expect Fallout villains to appeal to my ideological sensibilities. More often than not, they contradict mine and look monstrous.
Also, there isn't an internal logic to the Legion? I don't know how to address that because the Legion already explain themselves, almost excessively. It makes sense to them and doesn't rely on making sense to everyone else: hence fascism.
But if they don't work for ya, they don't work for ya. And they were still rushed, comparatively so I understand that. I'm simply arguing what the point of them was.
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>>Fascism and radicalism doesn't make sense to ME, but it exists still<<
I am not complaining that the Legion is radical or fascist. I see House as radical and fascist (in his own actions) too.
What I am saying is that I can follow the motivation behind House for example - even if I disagree with it personally. Which makes it good writing. He is presented well in the game and setting. He is fleshed out.
The Legion is not. They are comical. And that has in my opinion something to do with what I describe as fake complexity. It would have been better, again in my opinion, if the Legion was left more simple. Like the Enclave in Fallout 2. Also extreme and fascist. But it doesn't bother me. Because it was always meant to be a onedimensional faction and villain that you simply blow up in the end.
I am not complaining that the Legion is radical or fascist. I see House as radical and fascist (in his own actions) too.
What I am saying is that I can follow the motivation behind House for example - even if I disagree with it personally. Which makes it good writing. He is presented well in the game and setting. He is fleshed out.
The Legion is not. They are comical. And that has in my opinion something to do with what I describe as fake complexity. It would have been better, again in my opinion, if the Legion was left more simple. Like the Enclave in Fallout 2. Also extreme and fascist. But it doesn't bother me. Because it was always meant to be a onedimensional faction and villain that you simply blow up in the end.
I understand what their point is I just believe Obsidian failed in making it. The issue is not the Legion itself or what they actually represent. What I complain about is how Obsidian tackled it.
RangerBoo
Resident Schizo Poster
I feel the need to bring this up. I know this mod gets a lot of shit for the fetishistic way they wrote the women but how they wrote the men is just as bad. You have the shop keep who is into ghouls, you have the chem dealer who likes having sex with snakes and you have the Legate who has a BDSM sex dungeon. Was there anybody on this team who wasn't a massive sex pervert?
Señor Wally
Mildly Dipped
It's funny because I have more respect for modders who make straight up sexualized stuff and are open about it. I mean, if you downloaded a loverslab mod, you know what you're doing(or have no excuse NOT to know) and no one was shoving lizards in your face unexpectedly. But with Frontier, they made a big game akin to 3 and NV and then said "this is a lore friendly experience", put a bunch of hornies in it and then you get "nah, it was meant to be wild wasteland" or "Don't-don't judge me".
Like, bro. Why is there a tumblr porn artist in the wasteland rn? Why are the lizards the most degenerate shit in modding history? Tf is going on?
Like, bro. Why is there a tumblr porn artist in the wasteland rn? Why are the lizards the most degenerate shit in modding history? Tf is going on?
Plot twist: the Frontier team hired Muggy as a consultant.
Norzan
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
I assume we can't still join the Enclave. Or else the Cleansing (yes, it's capitalized) would start.
Señor Wally
Mildly Dipped
No. lol. Although, Phobos did say he was interested in doing an Enclave route. But considering he left the team on the day of the 4chan raid and the rest of the team is focused on a new NCR route, I'd say that Enclave route aint coming.
Norzan
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Guess i'll mod it myself. Gotta keep the wasteland clean of the degenerate filth in this mod.
The Enclave did nothing wrong.
The Enclave did nothing wrong.
RangerBoo
Resident Schizo Poster
I don't think so as there is not enough underage slave girls with smelly feet.
Norzan
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Speaking of the Enclave, does this mod still have the loading screen with the sad Enclave soldier and a text saying you can't join their faction, or the dialogue option to say why would anyone join such an objectively evil faction? Because those were straight up facepalm worthy.
CT Phipps
Carbon Dated and Proud
Speaking as someone on the spectrum, no, there's just perverts out there.
It says just about everything that we have oodles of weird sex games and lots of incredibly prudish ones but very few games where people just have sex because it's fun and its not treated as a big deal.
RangerBoo
Resident Schizo Poster
Yes, I believe so. I think they still have it in order to run it in the trolls face.
I am too believe it or not, diagnose with Aspergers when I was 8. Perhaps this is more or less what happens when you are in an echo chamber of other sex freaks. Don't have a sane and normal person to tell them what isn't socially acceptable.
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