CT Phipps
Carbon Dated and Proud
Speaking as a guy who has made a living for a few years as a writer, when borrowing someone else's toys to play with, don't pretend you've made them better.
RangerBoo Tortures Herself Playing The Frontier
- Thread starter RangerBoo
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Carbon Dated and Proud
Señor Wally
Mildly Dipped
If the allegations are true about Frontier devs hounding off other modders, I gotta say I'd be pretty fucking pissed. Because they'd go from being a source of fascination for me to being a real fucking problem. They would no longer have ANY position to be complaining about how they were bullied by 4chan and stuff. And if true, more people need to know.
This is legitimately bonkers to me. There are two factions that are often labeled as fascist in Fallout: Enclave and Legion. And between the two of them, Legion is by far, way more fascist... and he's "improving them". So he doesn't think the Enclave can be redeemed because it's fascist, but his main contribution to Frontier is redeeming fascists who are also rapists. Well, that and snake sex.
That'd be TGSPY probably. lol. He was project lead. I had a minor argument about that with him once. I kept arguing in favor in NV and he repeated snapped back "BUT IT'S EMPTY".
This is legitimately bonkers to me. There are two factions that are often labeled as fascist in Fallout: Enclave and Legion. And between the two of them, Legion is by far, way more fascist... and he's "improving them". So he doesn't think the Enclave can be redeemed because it's fascist, but his main contribution to Frontier is redeeming fascists who are also rapists. Well, that and snake sex.
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Norzan
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Great, another those that perpetuate the meme that New Vegas is somehow empty. Forgetting that can be easily disproven by just walking around for like two minutes and notice how many locations you can see in the distance from where you're standing.
Señor Wally
Mildly Dipped
Nazo did the snake people. Or at least the quests around them. Rikkurikku did the deathclaws. Rikku was probably just fond of them enough to make one his avatar because he's Rikkurikku.
Nazo: Legion and snake sluts
Rikku: Horny deathclaw and big spooky tower.
Just checked to make sure. A mod on the Frontier discord confirms those things were by Nazo. The mod also said that they fit in with the lore and that they are well written. Classic Frontier crew.
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Alphons
National Beholder
Wow, what are the odds of 2 people with such specific tastes ending on the same project and both of them making almost the same thing.
Anyway, do you have any info what other smaller contributors did or only the big cheese? I checked the Frontier wikia, but it seems dead.
Señor Wally
Mildly Dipped
Right? It's like they met on a Scaley board first. And I only know about the big ones that were super talkative and or had big roles. They were real open for a while, even livestreaming and stuff. Now some of them like Phobos have backed off a bit since the January raid.
RangerBoo
Resident Schizo Poster
It's true. Just go ask Keylancer on the Nexus. He has been monitoring the Frontier team and their antics. From what he told me the Frontier team have been trying to gatekeep and drive away modders who either criticize them or view as "problematic". It is also not just modders but they have also tried to false DMCA YouTubers like the Four Decent Friends who made fun of their mod.
I wish I could like this a thousand times. This is probably one of the biggest cardinal sins of The Frontier. Instead of making their own thing with their own unique ideas they instead were driven by the belief that they can do better than Avellone, Sawyer, Someguy2000 and others. One should never do this as a writer as
- It makes you look petty.
- It just puts a microscope on to what you did wrong compared to the original author.
- When you fail you will end up falling harder.
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megamike15
It Wandered In From the Wastes
2021 might be the death of new vegas modding. the double blow of the frontier drama and the nexxus bullshit making modders quit in the span of months is shocking.
Eh the game had a good run. What can you do about it? Look back at the time you enjoyed. A good game, decent DLCs, great mods. The game definetly was around for quite some time. Sucks that some weirdos and perverts used it as their own little playground. It is what it is I guess.
Señor Wally
Mildly Dipped
New Vegas modding is still going strong. lol. Although, it may take a hit after Nexus' bullshit. But that will apply to EVERY moddable game on Nexus. New Vegas will not be disproportionately effected. In the meantime you got all the stuff that comes out daily.
I initially included Fallout: London and Fallout: Miami like a goof. But then I remembered that those are Fallout 4 mods.
I initially included Fallout: London and Fallout: Miami like a goof. But then I remembered that those are Fallout 4 mods.
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CT Phipps
Carbon Dated and Proud
The Enclave are meant to be Americano Nazis. So, yes, I have no problem with the people who just want to use them as irredeemable bad guys and just HYDRA in Fallout. Yes, they were a joke in Fallout 2 with the "great empire" consisting of a single oil derrick and after it's blown up, it should have been over but I'm not averse to some "comic book-ification" of Fallout's universe and spreading them out as a larger faction.
But Caesar's Legion is just low-tech Nazism with a focus on misogyny over race (and it doesn't seem like there's many brown people in their army either). I don't get how people can say, "Oh the Legion is better." It practices not just slavery but specifically chattle slavery and mass rape.
It's much more in your front that, "DIE MUTANT."
But Caesar's Legion is just low-tech Nazism with a focus on misogyny over race (and it doesn't seem like there's many brown people in their army either). I don't get how people can say, "Oh the Legion is better." It practices not just slavery but specifically chattle slavery and mass rape.
It's much more in your front that, "DIE MUTANT."
Señor Wally
Mildly Dipped
More like low tech fascism. It's about nation, not race. Outsiders are considered degenerate, liberalization is degenerate, democracy is a failure, they're almost a complete nationalized autarky with the exception of a caravanner here and there. Fascist ideology predates nazi ideology. And yet, Nazo ignores this and tries to make them progressive.
Enclave is less overtly fascist or nazi and more like extreme warhawk neocons with a genocidal edge. And you're right. I don't see how they're inherently worse. If anything, only 1 out of 3 times that they have been portrayed in the main games have they been genocidal anyway.
RangerBoo
Resident Schizo Poster
There are black and Latino legionaries in the game. Ulysses is black, the Cottonwood Cove Centurion is Latino. In Fallout none of the factions care about race as the world seemed to move beyond such pettiness.
As for the Legion itself, well I liked what the gals at r/menwritingwomen said about the Legion. With the Legion there was a reason for their every action besides, “lol! Let’s keep the women folk down.” Every action, no matter how heinous or sexists it is had a logical reason for it and that is what made the Legion such great villains. I have been watching a lot from the channel Film Courage and the writers, many of them film and story consultants, stated that when it comes to villains you need to make them engaging and captivating. You have to make the audience love to hate them and see the heroes rise up and kick their butt in the end. I feel that the base Legion did that as I love to hate the Legion and enjoy seeing my Courier and her rag tag group of friends kick their butts.
With the Frontier Nazo took away something intrinsic to the Legion and all for scoring progressive brownie points on Twitter. Now they are no different then any other faction in the wastes.
The Enclave were more or less a satire of the war loving neocons during the 90s. The Gingrich and Ken Starr types. However, in both 2 and New Vegas the writers did a good job in portraying the regular soldiers as just guys doing their jobs and who honestly thought that they were making the world a better place. Sure, the higher ups were corrupt and evil but the soldiers were just average Joe’s and Jane’s doing their jobs and wanting to make postwar America go back to its prewar glory days. Yet the Frontier devs, such as Nazo and Tgspy, only see the black and white. They can not comprehend that not everybody who fights in a fascist army is a fascist. Some soldiers are given no choice but to fight for their fascist government or else they could face death. I take it none of them actually know any history besides what is shown through a modern and progressive lens.
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Señor Wally
Mildly Dipped
This is actually why F2's interpretation is still my favorite. The Enclave is just this irredeamable if effective villain faction until you reach Navarro. Once there, you find people who are uncomfortable with some of the actions, a scientist/soldier couple with cutesy names, a guard who refers to a nagging officer as "what a brown noser" and a rather kindly chef. Now I admit, I've lost track of what was vanilla and what was Killap's Restoration project, but regardless, there was an effort to paint the enclave as a top to bottom command structure where not everyone even knew what was fully going on or agreed. That was mostly missing in 3 and it wasn't even entertained in The Frontier.
RangerBoo
Resident Schizo Poster
Oh course not because painting a faction like the Enclave as flawed yet still human would have gotten in the way of their political message which is “oRaNGe MaN bAd! FaScIsM bAd!” I don’t give a shit about Trump or fascism. I am criticizing this mess based on the writing. Reading John Truby Anatomy of Story, he stated that when it comes to politics in media you need to show and not tell. You also need to give the audience an example on why this ideology you are portraying is bad. When it came to the Frontier the writers were like, “ fascism is bad”. When one asked for an example their response was, “bro just trust us”.
CT Phipps
Carbon Dated and Proud
Eh, my read on Caesar is that he's actually got no reason for 90% of the stuff he does. This is all a power fantasy that he's living out that he's a living god and covering himself in the veneer of saving civilization. It's all an ego trip with the man that he has a bunch of justifications for that don't actually make a lot of sense. Then again, I'm a guy who thinks that anti-technologism is automatically something to put it in the bad guy book before we get to the slavery and misogyny.
But that's me.
As for the Enclave, my view of them is divorced from the satire of Republicans. I actually prefer to view them through the apolitical (kinda?) lens of the fact that they are just another bunch of tribals with an ultra-American theme. Which is to say that I think they're more interesting with the fact that they're a deeply deluded about their own importance and pretty similar to the Brotherhood of Steel in that they think they're bigger shit than they are when, again, they're just a bunch of loonies on an oil derrick.
Mind you, this may be due to the fact I grew up in Kentucky surrounded by a bunch of militia compounds of ACTUAL Nazis (in the sense of the swastikas, stated goals of white supremacy, and preparing for the apocalypse). You don't need to talk about Right versus Left when there's the actual fascists about to use as templates.
You dilute the baddies by trying to make them parodies of things rather than just being as awful as they are in their fictional but consistent in-universe politics.
But that's me.
As for the Enclave, my view of them is divorced from the satire of Republicans. I actually prefer to view them through the apolitical (kinda?) lens of the fact that they are just another bunch of tribals with an ultra-American theme. Which is to say that I think they're more interesting with the fact that they're a deeply deluded about their own importance and pretty similar to the Brotherhood of Steel in that they think they're bigger shit than they are when, again, they're just a bunch of loonies on an oil derrick.
Mind you, this may be due to the fact I grew up in Kentucky surrounded by a bunch of militia compounds of ACTUAL Nazis (in the sense of the swastikas, stated goals of white supremacy, and preparing for the apocalypse). You don't need to talk about Right versus Left when there's the actual fascists about to use as templates.
You dilute the baddies by trying to make them parodies of things rather than just being as awful as they are in their fictional but consistent in-universe politics.
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RangerBoo
Resident Schizo Poster
The thing is that fantasy shouldn’t reflect reality. That is a problem with a lot of fiction today. It takes away from the escape. Entertainment is suppose to be escapism. For a few hours a day people would like to not be reminded that the real world is awful.
Also, there is a lot of power with satire. Look at Mark Twain. In The Adventures of Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn was more or less a satire of life in the Mid West in the early 1800s but the stories also showed and highlighted the evils of slavery and racism. One can argue the same with the Enclave in Fallout 2. The Enclave were more or less a parody of 1950s and 1990s neocons but the writers also showed what kind of outcome their policies and beliefs would bring. If done well satire can be intelligent and make the audience think but it has to be subtle.
Also, there is a lot of power with satire. Look at Mark Twain. In The Adventures of Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn was more or less a satire of life in the Mid West in the early 1800s but the stories also showed and highlighted the evils of slavery and racism. One can argue the same with the Enclave in Fallout 2. The Enclave were more or less a parody of 1950s and 1990s neocons but the writers also showed what kind of outcome their policies and beliefs would bring. If done well satire can be intelligent and make the audience think but it has to be subtle.
The fact that we can even have this debate about Legion shows how well done they were, even without their half of the map. Caesar and his Legion still feel like a faction that, at the very least, could feasibly exist, and there’s an entire spectrum of opinion on them.
But people want their black and white hero-villain stories I suppose.
But people want their black and white hero-villain stories I suppose.
RangerBoo
Resident Schizo Poster
Again, Fallout 3 and Elder Scrolls fanboys made this. Look at the way the Enclave was presented in Fallout 3. There was no humanity, no place like Navarro, nothing. They were presented as evil mustaches twirling villains who wanted to wipe out all life in the Capital Wasteland. They were just made as another target for the shooting gallery.