Stanislao Moulinsky
Vault Fossil
In a way it bothers me because it's really really poorly thought out. On the other hand it shouldn't because from now on all Fallout games will be poorly thought out, probably. 
Real question: Does it bother you that Fallout 3 is canon?
- Thread starter JacobstownJacob
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Vault Fossil
JacobstownJacob
First time out of the vault
Sub-Human said:
Walpknut said:
Fallout 3 is factually canon in the eyes of the Fallout fanbase at large and the people who own the IP. Doesn't get much more canon than that.
SnapSlav
NMA's local DotA fanatic
That's what they had to say about FOBOS for a while, too. Whether or not you might have been "around" at that time, MANY would like to forget that, for a long while, FOBOS was canon, for the same reasons you just said FO3 is, that apparently we can do nothing about. Funny thing about that, though, is that we did something about it. We shit all over that game, and the makers had to placate all the hatred with "Actually, it's in an alternate universe; it didn't happen if you didn't want it to!!!!"JacobstownJacob said:
If by "Fallout fanbase at large" you're referring to fans who were INTRODUCED to the series through FO3, then of course they would consider it canon. Newer fans also shift demographics, so of course they would make the "majority". And? Do you fail to see the context of how self-fulfillingly cyclical that is, though? By that logic, any "hostile takeover" of the fan population or a future buyout of the franchise could therefore REDEFINE what's canon in the series. It implies that the series itself holds no integrity of its own.
What strikes me as odd is the notion people keep insisting that if a company OWNS the material, what they say goes, hands down. Seriously? How come, then, FOBOS isn't canon? How come, then, FOT's legitimacy is debated? It's on the same level of duplicity and ignorance as saying American armed forces "fight for democracy" and "protect their/our country" and "are fighting for their/our freedom". No, they kill people. What makes a country? Its citizens? Its geographical land mass? Its government? How is killing people in other countries protecting any of those 3 things? Well, the government propaganda says so, that's why. You don't put any thought into why you do what you do if your world is shaped for you based on the opinions of others.
If you personally find that FO3 doesn't "exist" within the canon, then it doesn't. That's how mythos works.
JacobstownJacob
First time out of the vault
SnapSlav said:
Well that was a whole lot of denial.
The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of current Fallout fans were introduced to the series by Fallout 3. It's pretty much just the Fallout loyalists (who Bethesda has chosen wisely to ignore) that cling to Fallout 3 not being canon. But I mean if you don't consider it canon that's fine. Doesn't make it non-canon material, though.
SnapSlav
NMA's local DotA fanatic
JacobstownJacob said:
Irony.JacobstownJacob said:
JacobstownJacob
First time out of the vault
SnapSlav said:
I'm a believer in death of the author. I agree that your own perception of it is more important than the intention of the author/creator.
Still doesn't make it non-canon material. Just means that you don't consider it canon.
Canon is defined by the person or group who owns the source material. Interplay and now Bethesda. Because of fan-outrage, FOPOS is now considered non-canon and FOT semi-canon. So far there is no reason why Fallout 3 will ever be considered anything but canon.
You can have your own personal canon, though. The official canon, however, contains Fallout 3. Or at least will contain it, depending on how much the next game will refer to Fallout 3.
You can have your own personal canon, though. The official canon, however, contains Fallout 3. Or at least will contain it, depending on how much the next game will refer to Fallout 3.
JacobstownJacob
First time out of the vault
Not to mention the vast majority of the current Fallout fanbase are only fans because Bethesda revived the series.
drawnacrol
It Wandered In From the Wastes
IMO there is no real fallout canon besides 1 & 2. Each game after diverges in a different way. Fallout tactics was set in a different world completely. Fallout 3 didn't make much sense because of the Mutants, Enclave and BOS showing up on the East coast. It used to bother me a LOT but I don't mind anymore. I love all 5 games and don't really mind where they take Fallout 4.
drawnacrol said:
I don't think the Enclave being on the east coast should be a surprise, if they are decended from those that ran the US government before the war then it makes sense they would have a sizeable presence in the former capitol. In lonesome road ed e suggests there is a enclave outpost in chicago, so one can assume from that that there are pockets of enclave spread around the country.
As for the mutants they provided a half assed explanation from the vault fawkes was in, and that's good enough for me I'm easy to please
The BOS trekking 3000 miles on foot across country is a little silly though
FOvet
Wandering the Wastelands
I agree about the Enclave, always have thought their presence was explained adequately. That said, I disagree about the muties. I think there should have been a much better explanation for them. At least, they ought to have had more backstory in Vault 108.
Oppen
FIXT n°1 fan
Beavis said:
Muties were discussed in another thread, so I'll be short on it: first, available entrances are highly irradiated, and that's known to make the mutation fail (remember, the muties NEED to take humans through it to make more muties); second, there doesn't seem to be any kind of organization besides terrify everyone, so I can't see why would they make more muties, nor why they seem to be somewhat friendly between them. I'd keep pointing out the holes in the whole muties thing, but I don't want to try to remember nor to look for the proper thread.
About Enclave, I partly agree. Mostly, in having an operational mainframe hidden there, but I would doubt of their interest in the place when you consider they already migrated their HQ to an oil rig. I'm not from USA and I suck in geography, so I'm not sure which advantages might have the place, but since most military and tech building are likely to be destroyed by the bombs, I'd rather abandon it if I was in their shoes.
I think it deserves a debate, or at least a mere exposition of facts from people who actually knows about DC
Stanislao Moulinsky
Vault Fossil
Beavis said:
Doesn't the game strongly imply (if not outright state) that the Enclave regrouped and moved to the East coast only after the destruction of the oil rig?
Stanislao Moulinsky said:
I don't remember that but its been a good year or so since I last played FO3 but if that's the case then yeah that's a little out there.
I have my doubts though, Col. Autum clearly has a southern accent which would suggest he's from the east coast at least
Oppen said:Beavis said:
Muties were discussed in another thread, so I'll be short on it: first, available entrances are highly irradiated, and that's known to make the mutation fail (remember, the muties NEED to take humans through it to make more muties); second, there doesn't seem to be any kind of organization besides terrify everyone, so I can't see why would they make more muties, nor why they seem to be somewhat friendly between them. I'd keep pointing out the holes in the whole muties thing, but I don't want to try to remember nor to look for the proper thread.
About Enclave, I partly agree. Mostly, in having an operational mainframe hidden there, but I would doubt of their interest in the place when you consider they already migrated their HQ to an oil rig. I'm not from USA and I suck in geography, so I'm not sure which advantages might have the place, but since most military and tech building are likely to be destroyed by the bombs, I'd rather abandon it if I was in their shoes.
I think it deserves a debate, or at least a mere exposition of facts from people who actually knows about DC
I don't remember them saying they took humans back to the vault, I just remember them saying that's where the muties originated. I could be wrong but that's the impression I had. As far as why its every species instict to reproduce and multiply and the only way they can is with fev so that's what they do
The base Eden was at (name escapes me at the moment) and adams air force base were in pretty good condition. Plus they had enough power armor and energy weapons for all of their troops so I'm guessing there was enough military hardware laying around. Plus in edens radio broadcasts he's clearly trying to convince people the enclave wants to return the USA to its former glory the former capitol makes perfect sense as a place to start that process if you want people to believe your propaganda.
Oppen
FIXT n°1 fan
Beavis said:
First, it wouldn't make sense there is an unlimited ammount of them if there is no recruiting, second, a single vault of muties should not be enough to terrify all DC for hundreds of years, also (according to Fallout's wiki at wikia), they grow over the years, being the Behemoth the oldest, it should not take two hundred years to turn all the living beings in the vault, so almost all muties should be Behemoths around the year the game is set (also, no man in the vault is likely to live more than a hundred years before turning into a mutant), but mainly, since the vault has only mutants inside, the dialog where a mutie tells another "we are getting short on the green substance" (he means the FEV) would have no sense. And I'm almost sure the BoS tells you their numbers are increasing.
I know about the effectivity of the propaganda, and have no doubt about the viability of the post-facto decission. I was talking about why would they plan on it BEFORE the bombs fell. I'd assume, before the attack, all military and tech buildings are targeted, and only secret bases, like the oil rig and the vaults, are safe. We can discount the vaults, as they're experiments which should not be perturbed from its purpose.
So, I assume pretty much everything they had build in the mainland are things they would not consider in their future plan, because they'll suppose they will be destroyed. That's why I don't expect them to take DC into account, because the only things they're likely to expect to survive would be their main secret base around there. Like Eden and such. But nothing else of interest, and with increased risk for their citizens of being exposed to radiation, comparing to the rig.
SnapSlav
NMA's local DotA fanatic
Actually, the Oil Rig wasn't targeted not because its Enclave HQ was "secret"- the whole WORLD knew about the platform -but because it was the only remaining source of crude oil in the whole world. Whether or not China was aware of the base on the Oil Rig was never clarified, but it was also irrelevant, because they didn't want to destroy their one and only source of future fuel- assuming they ever survived to take it from the US.
And yes, it was clearly stated that the Vault 87 Mutants DID bring abducted humans to the vault to be turned into Super Mutants. The absurdities in their presence and the scope of their threat is the SCALE of the vault, compared to the original (real) source of Super Mutants; Mariposa. Mariposa had vats of FEV that filled an entire warehouse-sized level of the military base. It had ample resources to create generations of Super Mutants, and it did. Vault 87 just had ambiguous tanks of their specially modified FEV that was administered in test chambers. Had the vault been designed SOLELY for containing FEV, it might seem possible for them to keep enough for the generations of mutants to follow, 200 years later, but like all vaults it had a large civilian population housed in recreational facilities. A stockpile of FEV to allow for generations of "civilian" Super Mutants that get mowed down on a regular basis yet maintain a sizable population to SOMEHOW legitimately affect the entire surrounding area and prevent it from recovering that entire 200 is not a matter of improbably. It's nigh-impossible, not to mention stupid as hell.
And yes, it was clearly stated that the Vault 87 Mutants DID bring abducted humans to the vault to be turned into Super Mutants. The absurdities in their presence and the scope of their threat is the SCALE of the vault, compared to the original (real) source of Super Mutants; Mariposa. Mariposa had vats of FEV that filled an entire warehouse-sized level of the military base. It had ample resources to create generations of Super Mutants, and it did. Vault 87 just had ambiguous tanks of their specially modified FEV that was administered in test chambers. Had the vault been designed SOLELY for containing FEV, it might seem possible for them to keep enough for the generations of mutants to follow, 200 years later, but like all vaults it had a large civilian population housed in recreational facilities. A stockpile of FEV to allow for generations of "civilian" Super Mutants that get mowed down on a regular basis yet maintain a sizable population to SOMEHOW legitimately affect the entire surrounding area and prevent it from recovering that entire 200 is not a matter of improbably. It's nigh-impossible, not to mention stupid as hell.
Stanislao Moulinsky
Vault Fossil
Beavis said:
Officially he is from the west coast.
"Augustus was born on 2222 and was raised on the Enclave Oil Rig. His father, Autumn Senior, was a high-ranking scientist in the Enclave when, after the destruction of the Enclave Oil Rig by the Chosen One in 2242, he received orders from the new President of the United States who succeeded Dick Richardson, a former presidential advisor named John Henry Eden, to take all surviving Enclave troops and relocate them to the Raven Rock military base on the East Coast."
At least that's what the official guide says.
Also, if there were other Enclave personnel on the east coast (or even just Raven Rock) it wouldn't have been a secret that Eden was a computer and not a real person.
Oppen
FIXT n°1 fan
I really can't think of how did I miss that. The whole war was about petroleum and uranium, how could I miss the fact that even with China knowing about the rig, they would be morons if they dropped bombs there. The other facts, thank you, I do see how I missed them, I wasn't paying attentionSnapSlav said:
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