Russia vs. Georgia

Den Baster said:
About that has occured and is an indisputable fact.
Figures the facts in current time(10.08.08).
~2000 Ossetia ppls 90 % Russian citizens killed.
~55 Georgia ppls 40 militarians, 15 peace are killed, from them.
~30 Russian military peacekeepers

[.....]
BIG propaganda on USA tv like CNN, FOX NEWS or from BBC UK. Good work and good example for Information WAR.

2000 ossetians dead ? i can't wait for pictures of the mass graves that don't exist. 30 Russian military peacekeepers dead ? where are the pictures ?

In an age where every cellphone has a camera i find it funny that all the death and destruction i see is of Georgian and Ossetian towns and buildings

All these "facts" come from a single russian news agency - the fact that every other news-cast reproduced them afterwards doesnt make them true.

I really dont side with the georgians on this. But seriously its not as if Russia is going to give whatever is left of Ossetia any independence it just wants a foothold beyond the mountains and wants to show other troubled regions what they do to insubordonates.

In theory i think Russia did the right thing. In practice theyre over doing it ...


I'll never understand Russian mentality, really


You gotta be proud of something in your past so you underline the achievements and brush aside the bad stuff. Every country does it but not with such recent stuff.
 
BN said:
Though the "why" mystifies me somewhat. Georgia attacks Ossetia, gets attacked back and...is sympathized with?

Werl, one could argue that South Ossetia is, technically, on Georgian territory. The way the public sees it, it's a Russian agression on a sovereign nation, which is being invaded during the "internal problems".

I know it's inaccurate. But here's your "why"; it's easy to believe.

Still no independent corroboration on the Russian invasion of Georgia, huh?

Fat chance. Remember how long "we" had to wait for an objective view in regards to, say, the Kosovo conflict.

Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili told the BBC his forces had observed a ceasefire since 0500 on Sunday morning, but had still been bombed by Russian planes. He said his government had been trying "all day" to contact Russia to discuss a ceasefire.

I think the guy's losing credibility by the hour, he just rejected an ultimatum about the situation in Abchazja.
 
What on earth was Saakashvili playing at? I don't really see how he expected this to end, then again i know feck all about Caucasus politics.
 
on a sidenote

Bush's idealism of not getting UN on side for invasions have let other countries think it fine to do the same.

fudge you and your nationalistic pride. a world government will soon be in place. so who cares who started it, the banks will never end it.

also about stalin, he killed the creator of the russian revolution trotsky in mexico with a pick axe to the head. because stalin was never for social change just about killing people who disagreed with him. all 40 or 60 million russians.

the only thing russians have ever been good at has been killing themselfs in the name of greater good. which it pretty stupid.

oh wait russians also invented the AK-47. which is loved by so many terrorist including their own.
 
Destroyaz_ said:
also about stalin, he killed the creator of the russian revolution trotsky in mexico with a pick axe to the head. because stalin was never for social change just about killing people who disagreed with him. all 40 or 60 million russians.

Yeah!

Because if Trotsky would've lived, and headed the Soviet Union, then all people would be brothers and the Soviet Union would've been The Empire of Love - with all people holding hands and singing songs and such.
 
Jebus said:
Yeah!

Because if Trotsky would've lived, and headed the Soviet Union, then all people would be brothers and the Soviet Union would've been The Empire of Love - with all people holding hands and singing songs and such.

Jebus is right. Trotskii was of "the international revolution". Where Stalin was fine with One Country One Revolution that helped beat up the Nazis, who knows what that insane twit Trotskii would've done.

That said, enough with the discussion of Russian Soviet history, that's not what this thread is about. Debating Stalin or the naivety of some Russians when it comes to his history will end here, for the sake of this thread. Start a new one if you think it's an important topic that hasn't been done to death already.

Wooz said:
Werl, one could argue that South Ossetia is, technically, on Georgian territory. The way the public sees it, it's a Russian agression on a sovereign nation, which is being invaded during the "internal problems".

I know it's inaccurate. But here's your "why"; it's easy to believe.

It is.

I guess it's the news agency's choice. They could also have sold this as Georgia breaking a truce and getting punished for it. Both stories are true, which means it's probably too complex as a whole to accurately depict for most papers 'n media.

Wooz said:
Fat chance. Remember how long "we" had to wait for an objective view in regards to, say, the Kosovo conflict.

True that.

Anyway, Russia is claiming to be advancing on Senaki. Since both Russia and Georgia now claim invasion, we can see it as credible.

Goddamn Russia. Crossed a line there.
 
Brother None said:
Wooz said:
Fat chance. Remember how long "we" had to wait for an objective view in regards to, say, the Kosovo conflict.

True that.

No reason to swallow the Georgian line hook, line and sinker, tho'.

And looks like we might never know the truth. Our brave tri-color army has moved deeper into Georgian territory, and most likely it will not stop until we reach Tbilisi. Which means that we've done too much damage to go back now and we need to completely win this war and cover up the facts. Winners don't get judged
 
True that. With Senaki crumbling, and if the Russians took Gori, and with Russia moving the rather scary Vostok and Zapad batallions into South Ossetia, this looks like full-blown war.

That said, Russia will get judged. The "winners determines history"-dictum doesn't count for localized conflicts like this, with the world looking over your shoulder.

I wonder what Russia is intending, tho'. They have little interest in integrating Abkhazia or South Ossetia or the whole of Georgia. Perhaps they are pushing to humiliate and disarm Georgia, perhaps they do want to topple the government.
 
I suspect after "peacekeepers" end pacifying locals Gazprom wil take control of oil pipeline. Putin will probably want the head of Saakashvilli for mocking him Lilliputin and being a pain in the backside for his ambitions in that region. Saakashvilli might end in next cell to Mihhail Hodorkovski, with a mock trial broadcast ed over national TV, ending with execution.
 
You guys do realise the actual oil reserves of Georgia are negligible, right?

No one has any real interest in Georgia's oil reserves, and to Russia the importance of its pipelines are secondary at best.

Oil reserves for caucasus states:

Russia: 60 billion bbl
Azerbaijan: 7 billion bbl
Georgia: 35 million bbl
Armenia: 0 bbl
Interest of Russia in Georgian oil reserves: 0

For Frith's sake, Georgia is a net importer of oil, as they consume more (13,400 bbl) than they produce (1,979 bbl). They import 13,530 bbl per year, and export only 2,400 bbl.
 
I had in mind Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan (BTC) oil pipeline which carries oil to the West from Asia. If Gazprom controls that Id say they would be able affect international economics great deal.
 
GreyViper said:
I had in mind Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan (BTC) oil pipeline which carries oil to the West from Asia. If Gazprom controls that Id say they would be able affect international economics great deal.

Here also big interest Nato;-). This region big gate in the black sea for Russia. And now understand why Nato so interestingly introduction of Ukraine and Georgia places in Nato? ;-)
 
Yes, but correct me if im wrong. But I thought idea was postponed because russiia said they would have none of that. So the joining time was extended. But your right access to black sea comes rather handy what with the Ukraine denying their military ports.
 
As I said:
Brother None said:
Also, this is an English-language forum. I will vat any further posts that speak in Russian.

And so I did. No more conversing in Russian, even partially. Stick it to PMs

GreyViper said:
I had in mind Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan (BTC) oil pipeline which carries oil to the West from Asia. If Gazprom controls that Id say they would be able affect international economics great deal.

True 'nough.
 
Some interesting fighting going on here. If Russians have calculated everything and they surely are doing a peace mission, why did the three baltic states (Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania) and Poland, who acted with fierce speed with a declaration which critisizes the use of firepower, got a very nice response from the Sovie.... sorry Russian Federation:

"You shouldn't be so anxious with serious questions like this, because they may cause big errors, for which you will have to pay for a long time..." - words from Russian ambassador in Latvia, Ryga Alexander Veshniakof. Pretty agressive i could say. What is this? A threat? I'll have to bring out my legal GLOCK pistol and wait for the young children on old rusty tanks then, who say *russian swear* alot.

And moreover, word *russian swear* is far more worse than word *english swear* or any other word which should be censored. The mongolian swearing legend has taken over to the people who say it brains. Not only people who speak in russian, others to. Me sometimes. Hm... But i would never use it in here. That's bloody trolling, swearing and other ugly piece of unworthy thing which falls out of human body in a smelly hole.

Perhaps no one should listen too much to the strange numbers from the warzone, including russians, georgians and the rest of the world's population. The main thing is to stop the fighting and then calm down, look at the casualties, call for international specialists, arbiters and judges and start rebuilding.

But noooooooo... we have to fight. Not only that, everyone listens to every number everyone has to say. CNN, BBC, New York Times, Vesti, local news stations. Any of them could be fake. I noticed today on my local news broadcast that somehow the downed russian planes was 4, then 80, then 18, then 4 again. What in the hell??? Missinterpretation my friends.

So just sit down, those who are from eastern europe, especially baltic states, Poland and Ukraine, take out your guns, and WAIT for them, who will come to save a few of their people.

EDIT: Pulled out the swears. :) You guys are really fast :D

Icnognito, couldn't just a handful of people go to let's say the Kremlin in Moscow with an asking to stop the war?

"Cease fire, then talk abit",
"Stop the fireing, tell us what's going on"
even one could be
"We're not like them, we don't blow off our friends off the face of the planet"
Or just ONE russian journalist could say that. They don't. They just say how evil all the world is. Right, the earthfolk came from the apes and russians from mars?
Sorry, i don't want to offend anyone, just trying to suggest that russians do have a mind of their own, i mean the ones who understand the problem, but don't want it to be taken care with cluster bombs and gunfire. Or is it: "Let's burn the mother*lovers*, for attacking our friends in the mountains, take oil pipe, the mineral water, the wine and have a party". I am sure it's not like that.
 
Was browsing WoW Eu forums for different reason and stumbled on similar thread. I do have questions and maybe one of you can help me out.

Whats the big deal about Vostok and Zapad battalions?
Are they like Black Barret's OMON?

And when did certain Georgian Leader called Putin a Little Putin or Midget man, I dont recall that?
 
GreyViper said:
Was browsing WoW Eu forums for different reason and stumbled on similar thread. I do have questions and maybe one of you can help me out.

Whats the big deal about Vostok and Zapad battalions?
Are they like Black Barret's OMON?

And when did certain Georgian Leader called Putin a Little Putin or Midget man, I dont recall that?

There were a few battalions stationed in Abhaz and Ossetia regions for peacekeeping purposes.
And the last question is a good one :D. Saw a commentary on one of my local news site like that.
All in all i think that all of that is just a bit of great deal non useful fuss, more like "gossip".

That's just like telling that F3 will be like F1/2, only BETTTER!!! (umm i can take away this if needed)
 
GreyViper said:
Whats the big deal about Vostok and Zapad battalions?
Are they like Black Barret's OMON?

They're battle-hardened squads specialized in mountain fighting, the ultimate battalions of guerilla-fighters. Their presence throws a bleak picture on Russia's intentions.

GreyViper said:
And when did certain Georgian Leader called Putin a Little Putin or Midget man, I dont recall that?

I don't recall him doing so.

Propaganda, perhaps? There seems to be quite a bit of it going around.
 
GreyViper said:
Whats the big deal about Vostok and Zapad battalions?
Are they like Black Barret's OMON?

Worse, they're veterans of Chechen wars, known to be extremely brutal.



Den Baster,

I think that we could cut down on bombing for one
 
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