Russian-Ukrainian war

I see a lot of Western media of late crowing the viewpoint of "we won!" That seems pretty naive to me, or just old-fashioned confirmation bias. The more likely geopolitical reality was Putin never had any interest in Eastern Ukraine, and it was to his disadvantage to actually landgrab it. It is dubious he ever had any serious intent to do so, when it is much more to his advantage to have this destabilizing element remain within Ukraine as a leverage point against the neighbor moving away from their sphere of influence.

Honestly, this is all playing out how I thought it would when it first started, with the minor difference of Crimea being a part of Russia and not an independent-in-name-only satellite state. As far as I can tell this pretty much went according to plan and leaves Russia where it wants to be; in possession of Crimea which we now completely forgot was an issue and have just accepted as a reality thanks to their showboating in Eastern Ukraine, and with a Ukraine reminded of their power with a forceful destabilizing element within its borders. The cost is some minor economic upheaval that Russia was well capable of absorbing. So...eh?
 
I'm glad I haven't even noticed any of the "we won"-ness :I

Btw, not only have we forgotten all about Crimea (which was quick enough!), we also forgot about Syria, Russia's bf.
 
Looks like some helicopter was dropped and a Ukrainian general and 13 others were killed, presumably by the eastern 'rebels'. I guess this has the potential still to become a bigger conflict. Then again it could just drag on and on...:?
 
Brother None said:
I see a lot of Western media of late crowing the viewpoint of "we won!" That seems pretty naive to me, or just old-fashioned confirmation bias. The more likely geopolitical reality was Putin never had any interest in Eastern Ukraine, and it was to his disadvantage to actually landgrab it. It is dubious he ever had any serious intent to do so, when it is much more to his advantage to have this destabilizing element remain within Ukraine as a leverage point against the neighbor moving away from their sphere of influence.

Honestly, this is all playing out how I thought it would when it first started, with the minor difference of Crimea being a part of Russia and not an independent-in-name-only satellite state. As far as I can tell this pretty much went according to plan and leaves Russia where it wants to be; in possession of Crimea which we now completely forgot was an issue and have just accepted as a reality thanks to their showboating in Eastern Ukraine, and with a Ukraine reminded of their power with a forceful destabilizing element within its borders. The cost is some minor economic upheaval that Russia was well capable of absorbing. So...eh?
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Now that I think about it, I noticed some commentators downplaying the strategic value of Crimea by arguing that it is an economic liability. But surely it can't be that bad if Ukraine could handle it.
 
Brother None said:
I see a lot of Western media of late crowing the viewpoint of "we won!" That seems pretty naive to me, or just old-fashioned confirmation bias. The more likely geopolitical reality was Putin never had any interest in Eastern Ukraine, and it was to his disadvantage to actually landgrab it. It is dubious he ever had any serious intent to do so, when it is much more to his advantage to have this destabilizing element remain within Ukraine as a leverage point against the neighbor moving away from their sphere of influence.

Honestly, this is all playing out how I thought it would when it first started, with the minor difference of Crimea being a part of Russia and not an independent-in-name-only satellite state. As far as I can tell this pretty much went according to plan and leaves Russia where it wants to be; in possession of Crimea which we now completely forgot was an issue and have just accepted as a reality thanks to their showboating in Eastern Ukraine, and with a Ukraine reminded of their power with a forceful destabilizing element within its borders. The cost is some minor economic upheaval that Russia was well capable of absorbing. So...eh?
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Well, the secessionist rebels in Eastern Ukraine are backed by Russians. There is a simmering conflict going on there. While Russia took the Crimea, I think they plan to make Eastern Ukraine a satellite state.
 
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28354856

Separatists shot down a civilian passenger aircraft, killing 295 people, including European citizens. I don't think Europe can sit this one out anymore. If it turns out that it was shot down with Russian-supplied weapons, I hope to M'Atra that Germany will wake the fuck up and realize they're putting money ahead of humanity by refusing to take a tough stance against Russia and undermining the entire foreign policy.
 
I dont know what to think about Russia and the Ukraine though. Dont get me wrong! I am not defending Russia here, but lets be honest, we are not dealing with poor opressed saints on the other side either.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_YWdaQhRU4
its in German, sadly, but yeah well ...

and even if I somewhat agree with you Tags, but the question is, what options are available here to Germany? A harder stance? What is that going to achieve in the end. Nothing. If the Russians tomorrow decide that its "save the Ukraine day!" - in other words invading them, then there is nothing that we can do, realistically speaking.
 
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The rebels are being pounded, and so far they seem abandoned by Russia. Seem, because there are conflicting reports and whatnot. But it looks a lot like a bunch of rag-tags being pushed back hard, after having had free reigns to do what they wanted, while the Ukrainian army feared Russian direct intervention. I think Russia is a bit "idgaf" about the whole situation, once they got their hands on Crimea. Eastern Ukraine is a nice bonus destabilizing factor, so to make sure Ukraine doesn't whine about Crimea once its gone - they have other problems now, and problems that one can assume will stay for a while. Blood has been spilled, innocents have died, neighbors ripped apart - a conflict-zone has been created.
 
I would Really Like To Know Just How Sovereign Russia was supposedly spotted supposedly editing Wikipedia page about downed Malaysia Airlines jet??? ;~0

Just who supposedly Spotted them supposedly doing that??? ;~0

Does anyone know??? ;~0

As for the supposed Ukrainian Rebels supposedly trying to shoot down the Malaysian Airliner, that’s pure Crap, and anyone who spouts That Insane Nonsense is a Damn Fascist Criminal and is F’n Insane.

The More Likely Scenario is that Racist-Psychotic-Fascist-Criminals who are Illegally-Criminally in charge of Illegally-Criminally-Coup’ed-Ukkkraine Knew That Sovereign Russian Federation President Vladimir Putin’s Presidential Airliner had Traveled through that area within an Hour prior to the Malaysian Flight 17, so the Criminal-NWO-FMRUS-Created-Backed-Illegally-Criminally-Coup’ed-Ukkkranian-Petro-Chemical-Poroshenko-Fascist-Regime told their Empty-Minded-Fascist-Military-Hierarchy there in South-Eastern Ukkkraine to look out for President Putin’s Plane, and if they saw it again, to Try And Take It Down, because in their Psychotic-Racist-Fascist-Mentally-Unstable-Eyes, if they could Shoot Down The Sovereign Russian Federation Presidential Airliner, and Assassinate President Putin, there would be (No President Putin Anymore, No Problems With The Sovereign Russian Federation), and if that had happened, Their Evil-NWO-FMRUS-War-Criminal-Overlord-Masters Would Be Very Happy and Hopefully “Very and Eternally Grateful” to them for Taking Out President Putin, but They Screwed Up because whomever was charged with trying to “Spot” His Presidential Airliner Got The Malaysian Jetliner Flight 17 Mixed-Up with President Putin’s Presidential Jetliner Killing Everyone Onboard of The Malaysian Jetliner by mistake when They Deliberately Shot It Down, because they were hoping that that High-Flying Jetliner was Sovereign Russian Federation President Putin’s Airliner, which it was not. ;~0

What The Fascist-Criminal-NWO-Controlled West and FMRUS-Manchurian Candidate Sock-Puppet Bacrak Obusha is saying and Puling and Saying (Lying) Against Sovereign Russian Federation President Putin is Shameful and Totally Illegal because President Putin and his Government Are Completely Innocent of The Deliberate Downing of Malaysian Flight 17, yet Psychotic-Fascist-Racist-Forever-War-Mongering Criminals like Republican(Reptilian)Faux-Senator John S__t for brain-Insane-McCain Wants Far More Illegal-Criminal Strict Sanctions against The Sovereign Russian Federation, and President Putin when neither President Putin Personally Nor His Sovereign Country Were Involved with the Horrific Downing of Malaysian Flight 17 because it was in Reality the NWO-FMRUS-Bacrak Obusha War-Criminal Regime who Backed and Illegally-Criminally-Installed the Evil-Illegal-Criminal-Coup’ed-Ukkkranian-Petro-Chemical-Poroshenko-Fascist-Regime Who’s Directly Responsible For The Deliberate Shooting Down The Civilian Malaysian Flight 17 yesterday, Deliberately Murdering All Onboard. ;~0

To Anyone who does not believe what I just typed here I type the following:

" Do Your Own Damn Research and Turn Off Compulsive-Lying, Psychotic-Racist-Fascist-Faux-Non-News For All They Do is Lie, Lie, Lie, Lie, Lie. Etc." ;~0
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Some people need to take their pills.

On the topic of Germany: Implementation of economic sanctions would help. As long as Russia can stroke its energy cock and make sure European powers suck it, we will have shit like Ukraine happening.
 
Check any of the Vice dispatches to Ukraine, and in the replies they line up to argue about even the most elementary details.

If we are to believe the "kremlin trolls" nobody is doing anything evil anywhere ever, except for the FASCISTS OF KIEV!!! and all other FASCISTS! except for neo-nazis and fascists, who are obviously not FASCISTS the way FASCISTS are.

I wanna ask one of them "Define FASCIST for me, if you please :0"

Hell, some of them are on-screen, trying to convince us that wearing a swastika has nothing to do with nazism. "Nono, this is an ancient symbol of- " OH SHUT UP WITH THAT CRAP, if you wanna wear nice ancient symbols, there are like five million to pick from. A couple of obvious ones, with bad connotations, are for example an upside-down cross, a pentagram, a jolly roger, a swastika, don't be a fucking retard and try to explain it away, I hate when they do that shit "nono, it's an old pagan symbol" yeah well you're not an old pagan, you're a fucking christian orthodox, and a goddamn motherfucking nazi pig.
 
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After finding a group called Antiimperialistische Aktion on FB now, with a Soviet Union flag in its logo, I think I'm going to give up on humanity.
 
I still have no idea in whose interest it was to shoot the plane in the first place. Ukraine has no business antagonizing its new European allies in such a way, but the Russians also visibly don't have much interest in sparking a conflict that was apparently dying down and from which they didn't really profit anyway. The most likely scenario is that the rebels had a massive case of the derp, and shot the plane thinking it was a military craft, which even Russia must be pretty angry about.

The back-and-forth between Moscow and Washington (& friends) is just comical, however. ''Our expert says it was you!'' ''Well OUR expert says it was YOU'' ''NO U'' ect.
 
Ilosar said:
The most likely scenario is that the rebels had a massive case of the derp, and shot the plane thinking it was a military craft, which even Russia must be pretty angry about.
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I am convinced this is the case.
It is known that the same day of the shoot down, in the same area, rebels bragged about shooting down a Ukrainian cargo plane.

These are rag-tags and civilians with guns. Russian influence here is not that of tactical or strategical prowess, but more just "good work dumbshits, keep fucking shit up, here, want some explosives?"
 
Tagaziel said:
On the topic of Germany: Implementation of economic sanctions would help. As long as Russia can stroke its energy cock and make sure European powers suck it, we will have shit like Ukraine happening.
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Meh, following the History of Russia - and the SU, I dont believe that they would listen to anybody. Not Germany and not the rest of Europe. So I personaly believe that sanctions will hit the wrong people, and it is questionable if that alone will get Russia into a dialogue, they are a very proud nation afterall, particulary when you consider the events during and after WW2, one might say that they are outright stubborn, it seems that so far they are not very interested in the Ukraine - for a reason, it would be very stupid for Russia to get in there with troops - but realistically, if they wanted it tomorrow, there would be nothing Europe could do. Not to mention that this whole situation shows one thing, and only one thing clearly. That Europe is full of hypocrites. All this Ukraine! UKRAINE! The poor Ukraine, a damsel in distress that has to be saved by the European Knights from the rapist Russia. Where was poor Chechenia, Georgia a couple of years ago? Most people probably will not even find it on the map. Russia is not a great neighbour, that is obvious. But sanctions will hit us in Europe just as much as it will hit the Russians. Now everyone would agree that its alright to send a message! But the moment those gigantic energy companies raise the energy costs again, then everyone here will be cursing about the politics and the Ukraine. That's how Germans are. Lets help everyone as long it doesnt hit our purse.
 
Putin is a self centered cunt, Russians living in the Ukraine only matter when it suits his narrow needs.

The so called rebels are throw away pawns - that matter little to the ruling class (ex KGB buddies) that own Russia now. I wonder how they will react to Putin when they're left to flap in the wind, maybe they'll become Muslims and take to Jihad. :twitch:

Yeah - Germany and France need to pull their fingers out of their arses, and send Russia a strong message.

Russian-President-Vladimir-Putin-laughs-with-German-Chancellor-Angela-Merkel-as-they-visit-the-Russian-booth-on-a-tour-of-the-Hanover-Messe-on-the-first-day-of-the-industrial-trade-fair-960x540.jpg
 
Tagaziel said:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28354856

Separatists shot down a civilian passenger aircraft, killing 295 people, including European citizens. I don't think Europe can sit this one out anymore. If it turns out that it was shot down with Russian-supplied weapons, I hope to M'Atra that Germany will wake the fuck up and realize they're putting money ahead of humanity by refusing to take a tough stance against Russia and undermining the entire foreign policy.
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Because it's a coincidence that the plane was flying at 10km altitude, over the territory of the Ukrainian army, who incidentally had Buk cannons capable of shooting aircraft at that altitude while the rebels had no such weapons or men with the expertise to fire them (planning trajectories at that altitude is finicky business you know?). Also the two Ukrainian jets located nearby were there by accident.
 
Political arguments aside, it is a tragic loss, especially for the Dutch. I know we have a lot of people who post from the Netherlands here, and I hope no one has suffered a personal loss. Those who have lost have my sympathies.
 
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I haven't lost anyone I know, nor have I heard of anyone who has. But it was a surreal thing to hear about. It must have been a very long time since we've had an accident that killed such a high amount of innocent people. They've been broadcasting the burial ceremony all day, today. I wonder how many bodies remain unrecovered, and I hope the call for any kind of positive action won't simply peter off and be forgotten.
 
Akratus said:
I haven't lost anyone I know, nor have I heard of anyone who has. But it was a surreal thing to hear about. It must have been a very long time since we've had an accident that killed such a high amount of innocent people. They've been broadcasting the burial ceremony all day, today. I wonder how many bodies remain unrecovered, and I hope the call for any kind of positive action won't simply peter off and be forgotten.
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"It must have been a very long time since we've had an accident that killed such a high amount of innocent people"? Dude, what about that OTHER "missing airline" just a few weeks ago? Hell, the incidents were so damn similar, the first news I heard of this latest airline going down, I thought it was US-based news coverage accusing Russians of being the cause of the first missing airline! The sad fact of the matter is, tragic events like these- almost identical to these -are not uncommon or infrequent at all. It's just not common that they gain equal global notoriety all the time...
 
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