Russian-Ukrainian war

I disagree. I viewed Putin as someone whom would save Russia from the oligarchs. He did. Russia is strong to this day. HOWEVER, isn't it about time the russian people deserve a choice in who governs them? Is Russias situation in a state so bad where president for life Putin is the only one standing in the way of disaster? Does Russia need force projection so badly it will risk Russian blood and the enmity of its neighbors? People say the west is an asshole yet folks will not hesitate to pull the same shit. Also, LA brought up something interesting. If everyone was allowed global force projection and EVERYONE, was allowed to police the world, we would be fighting all the time. It would be the cold war all over again. Look at the world wars. If Europe would have been satisfied with the status quo, America and Russia would not be the same today.
 
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DarkCorp said:
I disagree. I viewed Putin as someone whom would save Russia from the oligarchs. He did. Russia is strong to this day. HOWEVER, LA brought up something interesting. If everyone was allowed global force projection and EVERYONE, was allowed to police the world, we would be fighting all the time. It would be the cold war all over again. Look at the world wars. If Europe would have been satisfied with the wtatus quo, America would not be the same today.
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Policing is all well and good but it's a keyword for domination by one power, in this case America.
 
And the world was policed by France, Spain, Great Britain, Japan, Russia and Germany in the past. Look how well that turned out.
 
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We have had our failures.

Iraq, agreed.

Afghanistan, agreed.

Vietnam was fucked by us so it doesn't count. All the S. Vietnamese that DID and DIDN'T get out would agree.

The Syrian people wanted Assad out. We helped. Again, not our fault dumbass sectarian hardline fuckasses gotta screw shit up (IS, AQ,). Iranian and Russian influence, could be argued, would only prolong the war.

So besides the cold war, minus uprisings by the people (we have had the conspiracy argument already), things have been better. No third world war. Europe definitely benefited. Taiwan wasn't destroyed by the CPC, S. Koreans are doing better than their N. Korean brothers. Japan hasn't gotten a vicious ass whuppin from countries that still hold a grudge.

And yes Gonzalez, we fucked up royally in S. America due to the cold war. Looked up the debt restructure case but I am no economist. I would welcome an Argentinian POV.
 
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DarkCorp said:
We have had our failures.

Iraq, agreed.

Afghanistan, agreed.

Vietnam was fucked by us so it doesn't count. All the S. Vietnamese that DID and DIDN'T get out would agree.

The Syrian people wanted Assad out. We helped. Again, not our fault dumbass sectarian hardline fuckasses gotta screw shit up (IS, AQ,). Iranian and Russian influence, could be argued, would only prolong the war.

So besides the cold war, minus uprisings by the people (we have had the conspiracy argument already), things have been better. No third world war. Europe definitely benefited. Taiwan wasn't destroyed by the CPC, S. Koreans are doing better than their N. Korean brothers. Japan hasn't gotten a vicious ass whuppin from countries that still hold a grudge.

And yes Gonzalez, we fucked up royally in S. America due to the cold war. Looked up the debt restructure case but I am no economist. I would welcome an Argentinian POV.
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Sorry what. America is the main reason we have fucking terroist groups being a pain. Their intervention doesn't stop it... BUT makes them more pissed off. Which leads to more anti-America hate and terrorism. Somalia was a great example! Syria was just America's attempt at a another Iraq. Assad was the excuse. Remember Iraq? Yeah, very similair.
 
Sorry what??!

You mean those fundamentalist fuckbags like Al Qaeda, who will only end their jihad when Islam, specifically, their extremist type, will rule the day? You mean the IS fucktards who have proclaimed their caliphate and ALL muslim nations will bow to them. The Taliban who want control no matter how many people need to die? These fuckwits sound no different than any other group who have seized power through violence.

Without foreign intervention, these chuckleheads would attack the Shia, eachother, all the while exporting terrorism wherever these idiots feel their fellow crazy muslims are being oppressed. America or ANY FOREIGN INTERVENTION, is merely one small piece of the puzzle. They hide behind rhetoric but they all want one thing, money and power. The whole sectarian thing started because one guy felt he didn't get what was fucking owed him. Do you forget what happened in Afghanistan when the soviets left? Do you forget Crnis words so quckly to suit your arguments? With your argument, its Russias fault they have Chechen terrorists.

Oh yea, the Syrian people are too fucking stupid to think for themselves. It was a Murrican conspiracy. Nevermind when we topple goverments, we historically ignore the peoples wishes and use disgruntled members of said nations military to do our deeds. Pinochet was not known for listening to the people.

Iraq?????

Bush didn't need the consent of ANYONE. We straight up rolled in, WITH OUR MILITARY. As someone else pointed out, this looks like what Russia is doing. Iraq was a bad call but not ANYWHERE near the same.

But feel free to ignore reality.
 
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More like learned from history/soviets. Great cheap shot at America Crni but there have been PLENTY of hegemons before the U.S.

We have Egypt, Rome, The Persians, Alexander, Muhammad, The Vatican, The Chinese, The Japanese.

No need to thank me for jogging your memory Crni.
 
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Ask is that sarcasm I hear? I had high hopes for Putin in the beginning and it seemed like he made things better, atleast for Russians. I have been proven wrong before. I remember a long ago dscussion about Hugo Chavez.

His obsession with bases on foreign soil/power projection, worries me. Please remember what happened when the world had too many hegemons/global police men.
 
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DarkCorp said:
Ask is that sarcasm I hear? I had high hopes for Putin in the beginning and it seemed like he made things better, atleast for Russians. I have been proven wrong before. I remember a long ago dscussion about Hugo Chavez.

His obsession with bases on foreign soil/power projection, worries me. Please remember what happened when the world had too many hegemons/global police men.
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I started reading an interesting book about him a few days ago. It seems that he already was a crook back in 1985-89 when he was stationed in Dresden:

Gessen suggests that the defence of the motherland was not uppermost in Putin’s mind during these years. In August 2011, she tracked down one of Putin’s West German contacts, a former Baader Meinhof terrorist, who spoke to her on the condition of strict anonymity. What amazed this terrorist was not merely Putin’s acquisitiveness but his brazenness. “He always wanted to have things,” he told Gessen. “He mentioned to several people wishes that he wanted from the West.” Items on Putin’s shopping list that the terrorist was able to procure included a Grundig shortwave radio and a Blaupunkt car radio. Unlike Stasi agents, who would at least go through the motions of offering to pay for gifts, Putin “never even started asking, ‘What do I owe you?’”
 
DarkCorp said:
More like learned from history/soviets. Great cheap shot at America Crni but there have been PLENTY of hegemons before the U.S.
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Russia =/= Soviets

It is a common mistake that many people do so I won't judge you on this. Even today. In leading positions. Like military figures and some politicans. But that doesn't make it more true. The fact that for some a good Russian is a dead Russian tells enough - Yes, I exagerate here, but just to make a point. We expect that other powers differentiate when it is about our politics, cuz we are the good guys. We do not always do good things, but it's the intention. Politics is complicated! Foreign maters are complicated! Differentiate, you fucking terrorists and opressors/dictators! But if either China or Russia is doing something, it's evil. Be it the Ukraine or doing contracts in Africa or what ever. They always fuck with others. We do it as well but we at least export democracy, big difference! Russia want's to screw Ukraine! So we Eurotards have to help them and push back Russian influence! Or all of Europe will be lost! The whole free world is at stake here. And taht's why Putin is Hitler. China is still OK, for now, because they buy our planes. What they do with their own people doesn't bother us, because they are a soverign nation and it would be wrong to fuck them, as long as they have a big army and nuclear weapons. I am not saying that this all isn't very complex and complicated, and I am a bit ridicuilous here, but for a reason because our behaviour as western world IS ridiculous when you see it from the othe side. There are a fuck load of interests here. But Russia is not an evil empire. Not more than western Europe or the US.

I am not complaing about the fact that the US is a hegemonial powerhouse today - however I think they are on a decline, every empire falls apart at some point. That's simply history. They are not to blame for the fact that they won WW2 and the cold war - more or less, let's keep this simple. Just as how I can not blame Britain today for their fucked up colonialism in the past. Any nation would have done the same given the chance - and many did, in some cases even worse. Which is understandable we are all humans. At the end of the day when it comes to the important stuff we are all the same.

But you can also not blame the other players here for looking to get a part of that pie today. I am trying to see this right now from an neutral point. If that's even possible.

Neither western Europe nor the US can blame someone for doing something which they do as well. That's my opinion. We want to be world police? Call nations out on their shit? OK. Than we should also behave like one. Follow international law. Stoping to screw nations. And in general not act like the savages we really are killing millions of people (over the years, see war on terror) and when the truth comes out (nuclear weapons in Iraq anyone?) go like, whoops! Our bad! But we had good intentions! They are a democracy now! Totally in ruins, in a civil war, but a democracy - on paper at least!
 
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I am saying Putin learned about imperialism when he was KGB.

And you completely ignored my post about too many hegemons. Sorry, if you or LA had their way, this world would be in major chaos, like world war chaos.

You mean like how Europe has no military global authority so they can afford to act the noble humanitarian.

Remember, you folks outsourced this dirty job to us. We do our job. Do we make mistakes, sure. But, like I said in the past, minus the cold war and some interventions, we have done well. Much better than when 5 or plus hegemons ran the world into the ground and killed about 67 million people.

Its not about democracy, its about TOO MANY PLAYERS. This world doesn't need more global force guys, one is enough.

Boo hoo, its not fair Iran cannot have nukes. Well, the world ain't fair. If it was fair, EVERYONE would get nukes. Being the watchman means, naturally, you are the strongest and have the most friends. How do you keep said friends, by making sure their interests are looked after.
 
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It works with the European Union. It is run by many states with vastily different cultureal backgrounds, languages and different political views, not perfectly, but the Union managed to keep the peace between at least 4 major nations that had a habit to be constantly in war with each other. And we managed to keep the peace. At least for the last 60+ years. Itally, France, Germany and Britain. Those keep Europe together. As long as they are in peace with each other. Doesn't mean there are no conflicts. But those are at least not solved with bombers and soldiers, at least for now, who knows what will happen in 50 or 100 years. And particularly Itally is really not a perfect democracy, Berlusconi? What a joke. But it still works!

The same could work with several global players that keep each other more or less in check, if and that is the important part, they decide to make compromises and at least trusting each other on the important questions, like why it is good not to kill each other and to trade and such. And yes, this can also work if China and Russia are not democracies - I refuse to call Russia a democracy, no clue what they are, but sure not that.

I know you will disagree with me on that but this is actually in my opinion the current political evolution and it is a good one, not perfect, not world government or what ever. But the closer the big states get together the less likely are wars between them. There will be more global players, most probably Russia and China. And we have to accept that and finding a more or less peacefull co-existence. Because we are dealing with nuclear nations here and military confrontations are not a viable alternative. Unless you want to have a cold war 2.0. And we know where that one could lead us.
 
Given Putins current course, we just might have a new cold war. Putin has made it clear Russia will challenge the west and have bases on foreign soil. If he continues to strengthen his position, a new conventional war may be inevitable. It remains to be seen if he will fuck with NATO.

EU unity required 67 million sacrifices. Not cheap.
 
If "many states with vastily different cultureal backgrounds, languages and different political views" is a codename for "Germany", that might be correct. With the eurozone (plus Croatia) being direct vassals and the others just being dependent trade partners.
@AskWazzup You can't get a neutral perspective on leaders from eighty years ago from books, and you're expecting to get one for a leader that's still in power? And such a pain in the ass to the west?
People are complaining that Putin is a dictator as it is, yet to take all power away from the oligarchs and "fix" Russian society in the time he was in power would require Stalin-tier authority. Unless you actually believe he has such authority, you can't argue that Russia has these problems because he's evil, but because he's not God (or Stalin).
@DarkCorp When was the last time two nuclear powers were at war?
 
Comes down to if Putin messes with NATO. Most likely not but who knows.

Otherwise, proxy wars between the big 5 will continue with no end soon.
 
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The smaller texts are unreadable, but the nubmers speak for themselves. A politician acting Machiavellian is nothing new, and if that's the standard then we shouldn't give any politician ever any credit whatsoever.
 

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DarkCorp said:
Given Putins current course, we just might have a new cold war. Putin has made it clear Russia will challenge the west and have bases on foreign soil. If he continues to strengthen his position, a new conventional war may be inevitable. It remains to be seen if he will fuck with NATO.

EU unity required 67 million sacrifices. Not cheap.
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Even more reason to work with Russia and not against them. The Germans learned their lesson.
 
That is a good year to pick for a comparison - a year after complete financial crisis:

"Two external shocks, the Asian financial crisis that had begun in 1997 and the following declines in demand for (and thus price of) crude oil and nonferrous metals, severely impacted Russian foreign exchange reserves.[1] "

3 Years after the war in Chechnya:

"The economic cost of the first war in Chechnya, estimated at $5.5 billion (not including the rebuilding of the ruined Chechen economy), also contributed to the crisis."

And not so far from the total collapse of the soviet union. Also here is a nice picture:

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Natural-Gas-Prices-1986-to-2011.png


How strange that this corresponds so well with your picture.
 
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