Scores dead as Israel bombs Gaza
- Thread starter Bal-Sagoth
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Chancellor Kremlin said:
According to the UN that's a very conservative estimate. Also, don't forget that about 1600 people have been injured and it's very likely quite a few of them will die, given the lack of electricity and medical suplies in Gaza.
Bal-Sagoth said:
Yes, and I'm sure that if Israel relocated the Knesset to the border of Gaza, Hamas would bomb that instead of Sderot and Ashkelon.
Seriously, if they've planned this operation for six months, why did they start bombing, instead of sending in a few commando teams to kidnap or assassinate whoever they want to get at? They have that option, since they do it regularly on the West Bank. Maybe they thought it was better to kill a lot of civilians, rather than lose a few soldiers themselves, or maybe they just don't give a shit about how many civilians they kill, as long as they're Palestinians.
Chancellor Kremlin
Mildly Dipped
Flop said:
Thats a good point and something I have been pondering about. We all know how efficient and ruthless Mossad is.
I think the deaths of both Hamas and civilians was deliberate. Civlian deaths makes news like nothing else. Taking into account elections are on the way in Israel and the hawkish opposition party was demanding more action from Israel, the high death toll does not surprise me.
If Israel was pragmatic, it would have send in the commandos. But since it is a brute, it acts with force where more is needed.
alec, don't pretend that Israel's tactic hasn't from the start of this conflict been to literally exterminate the Arabs in Israel. They take every opportunity to kill civilians and then call it "collateral damage". The objective is to gradually bomb them into submission. Which is pretty much what Hamas has been attempting, except that the IDF has enough firepower to actually achieve it.
Bal-Sagoth
Water Chip? Been There, Done That
Chancellor Kremlin said:
Pretty much, I doubt they see the need to risk Israeli life when they can just bomb the hell out of Hamas security forces and ride out the negative publicity of a few civilian deaths.
I am not sure what my definition of "success" is when comparing civilian deaths to militant deaths in a bombing raid.
However I think it is pretty clear the majority* of deaths were Hamas security forces.
Just a question I am interested to see some opinions from:
What do you think Hamas and other such organizations would do if they had access to the same type of weapons technology Israel has?
Instead of just old rockets/mortars and using suicide bombers (which lets face it the Israeli West Bank barrier really kicked them in the balls on successful suicide bombing/infiltration).
So what if they had access to Smart bombs,modern assault rifles, main battle tanks, helicopters, etc.
Do you think militant Muslim groups would use such things in a more "responsible" manner than the Israelis?
Chancellor Kremlin
Mildly Dipped
fedaykin said:
No they don't. That tactic is so overrated it hurts. The Germans, British and Americans tried it in WWII and all of them failed. If anything, it stiffened enemy civilian morale rather than breaking it.
Its the same again with these 'Shock and Awe' tactics we hear so much about it. Bombing does not reduce people to submission. The only way the Israeli's might manage is if they begin to use nukes.
Chancellor Kremlin
Mildly Dipped
Bal-Sagoth said:
I already have the answer to your question.
Its called the Arab-Israeli war. I just think if both sides were armed equally a full scale war would break out, as indeed has happened in the past. Ideally, both sides want to destroy completely the other side. Iran has said it wants Israel wiped clean of the face of the earth. Israel doesn;t say it, but it too would want the palestinians to disappear.
The only reason we have this asymetric warfare at the momment is because one side is more powerful than the other.
EDIT: Sorry for double post, a tad drunk and didn't realise.
Bal-Sagoth
Water Chip? Been There, Done That
Chancellor Kremlin said:
To an extent I definitely agree with that statement.
I have no issues what so ever with people criticizing Israel. The only thing that ever irks me is when people try to invoke sympathy in others for the poor Muslim underdogs being put down by the big evil Jew.
Both sides are equally as guilty in this conflict, one just has better toys and more powerful friends.
fedaykin said:
A realization of what?
I am not denying Israel does not give a damn what happens to the civilians. They targeted Hamas security infrastructure which just happened to be located near the civilian populace.
Once more the MAJORITY of deaths have been Hamas security personal. Some innocents just got caught in the crossfire like they always do.
edit:
Also I am curious what your response would be to my question.
How do you think Hamas and other such groups would use the advanced weaponry Israel has if it were made available to them?
Bal-Sagoth said:
That's complete bullshit and you ought to know it. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a history book and find out how the state of Israel came into existence.
Also, I don't recall anyone but you mentioning jews in this thread. I hate it when Israel is automatically equalled to judaism, as if all jews agree with or support the occupation of Palestinian land and the slaughter of Palestinian people and should be held accountable for it.
Bal-Sagoth
Water Chip? Been There, Done That
Flop said:
I was more or less thinking about the recent conflicts between the two groups. Not the founding of Israel and all the causes that got us to where we are now. You could make an entirely different thread on that and it would go on for ages.
The rockets fired into Israel were totally not an act of aggression am I right?
At the same time I am sure there were those in the Israeli military who were just jumping for joy when the rockets and mortars started flying again.
"Abbas blames Hamas for bloodshed
Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian president, has blamed Hamas for triggering Israel's deadly raids on Gaza, by not extending a six-month truce with the Jewish state."
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2008/12/2008122813459308175.html
"Egypt Blames Hamas for War"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XEXsbTLfXE
So you think that this is a seperate conflict that started when Hamas fired rockets into Israel? I guess it's pretty easy to justify just about anything, as long as you take it out of all context, except for the parts that support your justification. Unfortunately this happens constantly whenever Israel bombs civilians.
And both Abbas and Egypt are openly opposed to Hamas, and have been for years, so why should their condemnation surprise anybody?
And both Abbas and Egypt are openly opposed to Hamas, and have been for years, so why should their condemnation surprise anybody?
Bal-Sagoth
Water Chip? Been There, Done That
Flop said:
Nope, I do however think it gave Israel justification.
I would have a much harder time defending Israels actions if they had conducted this operation while the cease fire was still active.
Hamas decided not to renew it and started firing the rockets and mortars again. Israel just exploited the situation and used it as an excuse to drop some bombs.
edit: new news!
"Israel Considers Truce in Gaza Assault"
"Israeli officials say their country may halt a deadly military offensive in Gaza to give Hamas militants a chance to suspend ongoing rocket attacks. The possible truce appears to be the result of a strong diplomatic push by Western powers."
http://news.aol.com/?feature=232890
If both sides will stick to it I say it sounds fair enough, Hamas stops launching rockets/mortars and Israel stops dropping bombs.
maximaz
Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
Chancellor Kremlin said:
Exactly. I agree that it's relatively not bad but the key word here is relatively. Even if it is indeed 62, that's a big number when it comes to civilian death toll. 20% is far from the worst percentage but it's still a big number.
Slaughter Manslaught
Vault Senior Citizen
The way the middle-east is going to hell, I see as more and more justified the idea of dropping a biological plague to kill off the whole region. Holy crap, doesn't that bunch tire of shooting at each other? As long as the oil is coming, though, I would't give a rat shit if all the people there (ALL) suddently died. And by "there" I also include all other muslim countries - Including Pakistan and Indonesia. Afeganistan can go die, too.
Chancellor Kremlin
Mildly Dipped
Slaughter Manslaught said:
Then we should also drop biological bombs in all major populated areas in Brazil too. Sao Paulo, Rio De Janeiro, Helo Horizonte and so on. Doesn't your bunch not tire of shooting at each other either? I see it every day in the news. Drug trafficker killed. Child killed. Woman killed. Polieman killed. Corruption rampant. The fact the slums don't produce anything of value other than violence (rathar than say, oil) just justifies it more.
In other news:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7805558.stm
It pisse me off Israel conducts these operations whilst simultaneously denying any and all forms of aid to the Palestinians. Nobody even tries to call Israel on it either.
Why is it when the Soviet Union decided to starve Berlin of supplies an international response ensued, with an air corridor and all that, but when Israel does it, everybody stays still?
I think an air corridor is what is needed. Israel would not dare shoot down European, U.S or U.N planes, which just reinforces the fact it probably is onl aid rather than guns going through, which is one of the reasons Israel supposedly 'denies aid'.
DexterMorgan
A Smooth-Skin
Chancellor Kremlin said:
I wouldn't be so sure about that. They've attacked both military and non-military targets of other countries, you can look that up on the web. The reason a corridor is not established is because powers that be fear that such a scenario would force them into firmer action against Israel.
Yet again, The Independent offers the most insightful article on the ongoing situation.
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinio...is-not-the-one-israel-is-telling-1214981.html
DexterMorgan
A Smooth-Skin
The Palestinians are experts on propoganda and faking death. Their was even pictures proving this a few years ago with a boy shown dead, was shown weeks later trying to setup another fake death scene.
Have civilians died, yes, but not nearly as many as reported and none were targetted intentionally.
Every target was related to Hamas, problem was secondary explosions from weapon caches the IDF targetted. You can find vids of these on liveleak if you do a search.
The Palestinians elected Hamas and are paying for it.
Have civilians died, yes, but not nearly as many as reported and none were targetted intentionally.
Every target was related to Hamas, problem was secondary explosions from weapon caches the IDF targetted. You can find vids of these on liveleak if you do a search.
The Palestinians elected Hamas and are paying for it.
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