Dal1as said:
Scores dead as Israel bombs Gaza
- Thread starter Bal-Sagoth
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maximaz
Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
And so you did:
DexterMorgan said:Five sisters killed in bombing. Jawaher, four, Dina, eight, Samar, 12, Ikram, 15 and Tahrir, 17
Four year old Dena Belosha dead.
Dal1as said:
Oh so it is "true palestinians" now?
1. This bullshit outdated definition changes nothing. The people we call palestinians today have been living in palestine some since forever. Palestine was just a name given by the romans. The ones that matters (aka the ones living there today) were not a bunch of migratns. They were pastoralists and mostly worked the land.
2. surrounding countries? What are you talking about?
3. Pawns? By who? and how?
You are aware that israel went in an killed 6 hamas people prior to the begining of the rocket attacks?
Bal-Sagoth
Water Chip? Been There, Done That
Loxley said:
Can you give me a link to the situation in particular you are talking about?
Regardless it still does not mean they do not have the right to take military action if Hamas is using force against Israel.
Same can be said with Hamas, if they feel they need to use military action against Israel then all the power to them.
They should not cry foul however when those bottle rockets they are shooting are trumped by Israel's arsenal.
As far as the entire "right to exist" argument I will simply say this:
Independence was declared, war was fought, and Israel won.
Much more complicated I know, but being very blunt that is how it is. Either way you look at it Israel secured its self in the 1948 Arab–Israeli War.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1949_Armistice_Agreements
maximaz
Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
Bal-Sagoth said:
Really? Last I checked, the war is far from over.
Bal-Sagoth
Water Chip? Been There, Done That
maximaz said:
The 1948 Arab–Israeli War ended with the signing of the 1949 Armistice Agreements between Israel and its Arab neighbors.
The Arab–Israeli "conflict" is far from over.
Arguing about Israel's right to be there is silly at best. They've been there for over 60 years and are not going to go anywhere, it is simply reality and as often happens in the real-world, reality is what is relevant.
That said, regardless of whether or not Israel has a right to the areas they currently are 'occupying', they do have a right themselves from harm. So does Hamas.
That said, regardless of whether or not Israel has a right to the areas they currently are 'occupying', they do have a right themselves from harm. So does Hamas.
maximaz
Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
Bal-Sagoth said:The 1948 Arab–Israeli War ended with the signing of the 1949 Armistice Agreements between Israel and its Arab neighbors.
The Arab–Israeli "conflict" is far from over.
More like the battle ended; the war is still far from over. How many agreements have there been signed and how many new "wars" have broke out since those agreements? If the war was over, Israel wouldn't be constantly supplied with weapons like it's about to fight WW3.
I don't know if Israel has the right to exist or not. I know that they don't really care what anyone thinks about it or how they achieve that goal. I also know that it's silly to say that Israel deserves to exist because it won a battle or war that didn't resolve the main issue in any way. It's not the middle ages anymore. There have been recent examples where a war is won and an agreement is signed and a few years later another war is fought and nobody even remembers there ever was an agreement or what happened in the first place.
Bal-Sagoth
Water Chip? Been There, Done That
maximaz said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_War - Ended
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab-israeli_conflict - Still going on
I never said all war ended, Just that the "official" 1948 Arab Israeli War did.
Which is true, that conflict in particular came to an end with the signing of the 1949 Armistice Agreements.
All the same, Israel exist and will not be going anywhere. If its neighbors still feel sore about it they can by all means attempt to reclaim the land.
Israel will do what it has to do to survive.
maximaz
Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
Bal-Sagoth said:
If you acknowledge their right to do so, why have you been posting against it?
The problem is that it doesn't look like what Israel is doing is trying to survive. That's usually what occupied countries do but whatever, nobody is going to convince anybody here. I just find the disregard of human life and rationalization of civilian casualties of some people disturbing. Personally, I don't support either side for their tactics and their unwillingness to actually solve the problem. Israel more so, in my eyes.
Bal-Sagoth
Water Chip? Been There, Done That
maximaz said:
If they feel they must wage war against Israel in order to achieve what they see is right then I say all the power to them.
They must also be willing to face the consequences of their actions.
I feel that way with pretty much everything. Any group is free to do as it wishes but they should not cry foul when it comes back to bite them in the ass.
Mord_Sith
Mildly Dipped
As per usual it is probably time for me to wade in and make an ass of myself.
To be blunt, Israel and at least a few of the Jewish pastors and Synagogues I've been to sicken me to the core.
Do you have any idea what happened to the Palestinians?
They got knocked out by Uncle Sam and while they were out had their home looted and they were thrown out into the street, replaced by the war-wounded Jews that the rest of the world didn't want at the time. (Just after WW2)
Don't even try to sugar coat it, even Canada turned refugee ships away and sent them back to Germany before the final solution was implemented.
Nobody wanted them, so they took the lot of them, and displaced half a country to dump them into the plot and gave them the hardware to keep them there.
The only reason why the states and the EU still support them is because Israel is the bastard child of WW2 and the racist views of the winners of that war.
Anyways back to my point, Israel is now putting the same fate on the Palestinians and EVERY region that belonged to the former holy land, don't kid yourself, it won't end with the Gaza strip if they have anything to say about it, they are obsessed with reclaiming the original homeland in all it's glory through bloodshed and blade(metaphorically speaking.)
They are committing Genocide, the entire Gaza strip is one giant Palestinian prison compound that Israel is crushing the life out of as surely as any gas chamber in WW2 ever did.
It's damn disgusting what they're doing, I'm sorry but the survivors of the holocaust should know damn well better than to do this, instead they're visiting it on another people they deem inferior, just like the Germans did to them.
Those pissant rockets aren't going to do anything, all it signifies is that they are still defiant, they are still willing to make a stand against those that are crushing them both physically and spiritually.
As for Hamas, they're desperate, there's no doubt about that, they are against the wall and there's nothing else they can do except capitulate, so instead of using your big stick analogy, why don't you take off your rose colored glasses and see it from the ones getting the stuffing bombed out of them, their livelihoods shattered because Israel is being a greedy whore.
I know that the Hamas aren't roses and puppy dogs, they've had their fair share of bullshit thrown about, and their methods are most definitely questionable if not entirely wrong, but to say that the Palestinians deserve this fate that the world thrust upon them, I'm sorry but I'd be a bit vindictive at both those attacking me and those that took my home and put my attackers in there because they didn't want to deal with them!
The Hamas aren't going to give up, they'll fight to the last man, woman, and child from the way this war is shaping up, the middle east breeds hatred like livestock, this war is going to be perpetual, the only reason why Israel has an edge is because of external backing.
Does anyone deserve ethnic cleansing?
I don't believe so, and it causes a little bit of me to die inside knowing that there are those in this world that not only just let this go by without questioning, but openly praise Israel for committing Genocide and other atrocities that were visited upon them in WW2.
I guess it's a good thing that my cynicism has a re-genitive property on those little bits inside of me otherwise I might just be an empty husk by now.
So Mr. Big stick, what if you were driving your car to work for 20 years, then someone stole it from you at gunpoint, and that someone turned out to be your neighbor, and the gun was borrowed from the guy across the street who owns an entire apartment block there?
What if after that he annexed your garage for your stolen car with the gun borrowed from the man across the road?, What if he was banging on your door and demanding you let him in to annex your living room and big screen TV that you had just finished paying off?
What if when you refused he tore up your yard, put a large moat around it with various nasty critters you don't want to touch you lest you perish, and made one bridge that he controlled, then refused to let you go to work to pay for your house, your electricity, or anything else?
Then when you tried to fight back, defend what was yours, and threw rocks at his house, maybe breaking a pane or two of glass, he comes along with a baseball bat and breaks every window in your house for every shard of glass that falls?
What would you do, what can you do?
He's got the big stick, he makes the rules, are you just going to give him your keys, your shirt off your back, and everything you worked your entire life for?
Or are you going to flail desperately trying to make some dent in your assailant no matter how small, no matter how futile, because for every action there is hope, hope that one day this hell will end and life will return to normal.
I get the feeling you've never been on the short stick side in your life, I pity you, you have no idea the feeling of futility, of the abject despair that can grip your heart when confronted with a clearly superior foe that doesn't like you, where you have no choice but to lash out or perish at the hands of your foe, nemesis, bully.
Give it whatever title you want, but the context remains the same, someone that is obviously stronger and is abusing that strength to have their way regardless of the harm it may cause others.
I don't condone the war, I'd rather it have a peaceful resolution between both parties, but until this schoolyard antics of Israel stop, the Palestinians will keep flailing, simply in desperation because they can't do anything else.
To be blunt, Israel and at least a few of the Jewish pastors and Synagogues I've been to sicken me to the core.
Do you have any idea what happened to the Palestinians?
They got knocked out by Uncle Sam and while they were out had their home looted and they were thrown out into the street, replaced by the war-wounded Jews that the rest of the world didn't want at the time. (Just after WW2)
Don't even try to sugar coat it, even Canada turned refugee ships away and sent them back to Germany before the final solution was implemented.
Nobody wanted them, so they took the lot of them, and displaced half a country to dump them into the plot and gave them the hardware to keep them there.
The only reason why the states and the EU still support them is because Israel is the bastard child of WW2 and the racist views of the winners of that war.
Anyways back to my point, Israel is now putting the same fate on the Palestinians and EVERY region that belonged to the former holy land, don't kid yourself, it won't end with the Gaza strip if they have anything to say about it, they are obsessed with reclaiming the original homeland in all it's glory through bloodshed and blade(metaphorically speaking.)
They are committing Genocide, the entire Gaza strip is one giant Palestinian prison compound that Israel is crushing the life out of as surely as any gas chamber in WW2 ever did.
It's damn disgusting what they're doing, I'm sorry but the survivors of the holocaust should know damn well better than to do this, instead they're visiting it on another people they deem inferior, just like the Germans did to them.
Those pissant rockets aren't going to do anything, all it signifies is that they are still defiant, they are still willing to make a stand against those that are crushing them both physically and spiritually.
As for Hamas, they're desperate, there's no doubt about that, they are against the wall and there's nothing else they can do except capitulate, so instead of using your big stick analogy, why don't you take off your rose colored glasses and see it from the ones getting the stuffing bombed out of them, their livelihoods shattered because Israel is being a greedy whore.
I know that the Hamas aren't roses and puppy dogs, they've had their fair share of bullshit thrown about, and their methods are most definitely questionable if not entirely wrong, but to say that the Palestinians deserve this fate that the world thrust upon them, I'm sorry but I'd be a bit vindictive at both those attacking me and those that took my home and put my attackers in there because they didn't want to deal with them!
The Hamas aren't going to give up, they'll fight to the last man, woman, and child from the way this war is shaping up, the middle east breeds hatred like livestock, this war is going to be perpetual, the only reason why Israel has an edge is because of external backing.
Does anyone deserve ethnic cleansing?
I don't believe so, and it causes a little bit of me to die inside knowing that there are those in this world that not only just let this go by without questioning, but openly praise Israel for committing Genocide and other atrocities that were visited upon them in WW2.
I guess it's a good thing that my cynicism has a re-genitive property on those little bits inside of me otherwise I might just be an empty husk by now.
So Mr. Big stick, what if you were driving your car to work for 20 years, then someone stole it from you at gunpoint, and that someone turned out to be your neighbor, and the gun was borrowed from the guy across the street who owns an entire apartment block there?
What if after that he annexed your garage for your stolen car with the gun borrowed from the man across the road?, What if he was banging on your door and demanding you let him in to annex your living room and big screen TV that you had just finished paying off?
What if when you refused he tore up your yard, put a large moat around it with various nasty critters you don't want to touch you lest you perish, and made one bridge that he controlled, then refused to let you go to work to pay for your house, your electricity, or anything else?
Then when you tried to fight back, defend what was yours, and threw rocks at his house, maybe breaking a pane or two of glass, he comes along with a baseball bat and breaks every window in your house for every shard of glass that falls?
What would you do, what can you do?
He's got the big stick, he makes the rules, are you just going to give him your keys, your shirt off your back, and everything you worked your entire life for?
Or are you going to flail desperately trying to make some dent in your assailant no matter how small, no matter how futile, because for every action there is hope, hope that one day this hell will end and life will return to normal.
I get the feeling you've never been on the short stick side in your life, I pity you, you have no idea the feeling of futility, of the abject despair that can grip your heart when confronted with a clearly superior foe that doesn't like you, where you have no choice but to lash out or perish at the hands of your foe, nemesis, bully.
Give it whatever title you want, but the context remains the same, someone that is obviously stronger and is abusing that strength to have their way regardless of the harm it may cause others.
I don't condone the war, I'd rather it have a peaceful resolution between both parties, but until this schoolyard antics of Israel stop, the Palestinians will keep flailing, simply in desperation because they can't do anything else.
Bal-Sagoth
Water Chip? Been There, Done That
@ Mord_Sith
Care to write me a big ol post about the injustice that was done to the Native Americans?
I mean really what do you want me to tell you? Life is not always fair.
I respect your opinion as I do everyone's, even if they have vastly different views.
You can however spare me those long heart clinching stories about innocent people whose lives are torn asunder by this conflict. Or those pictures of dead children being buried.
Innocent people die in war, I have accepted that.
As I also said before, if Hamas feels what they are doing is justified I am all for it. I will never shake my fist at them and say something like "YOU EVIL BASTARDS, STOP YOUR SENSELESS AGGRESSION!".
Let them do what they need to do, Israel will do what it needs to do.
And if any nations such as Iran enter the conflict, the United States will be there to step in.
As was said previously, debating Israels right to exist or questioning if they are a real country is a bit silly. They are there and are not going anywhere. It is a simple fact people should accept.
Well I suppose Iran, the Palestinians, and other such groups can say they are not a legit country. In the vast world of politics however is that sentiment really going to hurt Israel?
At best those that harbor those views can be wrote off as anti-Semites and will get even more support for Israel.
Making such arguments is along the same lines of these idiots currently trying to get the courts to look into if Obama is really an American citizen.
Futile at best.
Care to write me a big ol post about the injustice that was done to the Native Americans?
I mean really what do you want me to tell you? Life is not always fair.
I respect your opinion as I do everyone's, even if they have vastly different views.
You can however spare me those long heart clinching stories about innocent people whose lives are torn asunder by this conflict. Or those pictures of dead children being buried.
Innocent people die in war, I have accepted that.
As I also said before, if Hamas feels what they are doing is justified I am all for it. I will never shake my fist at them and say something like "YOU EVIL BASTARDS, STOP YOUR SENSELESS AGGRESSION!".
Let them do what they need to do, Israel will do what it needs to do.
And if any nations such as Iran enter the conflict, the United States will be there to step in.
Blakut said:
As was said previously, debating Israels right to exist or questioning if they are a real country is a bit silly. They are there and are not going anywhere. It is a simple fact people should accept.
Well I suppose Iran, the Palestinians, and other such groups can say they are not a legit country. In the vast world of politics however is that sentiment really going to hurt Israel?
At best those that harbor those views can be wrote off as anti-Semites and will get even more support for Israel.
Making such arguments is along the same lines of these idiots currently trying to get the courts to look into if Obama is really an American citizen.
Futile at best.
Palestinians are Semites as well, you idiot.
Care to stop being a jerk before I get angry? Thank you.
Bal-Sagoth
Water Chip? Been There, Done That
Wooz said:
We are really going to go there?
Want me to just say Anti-Jewish in the future, or even better Anti-Israeli? That would probably work the best considering not all Israel is Jewish and there are even Muslims serving in the IDF right now.
I am sure you know just as well as I the term antisemitism refers specifically to attitudes held towards Jews.
an·ti-Sem·ite (nt-smt, nt-)
n.
One who discriminates against or who is hostile toward or prejudiced against Jews.
Adj. 1. anti-semiticanti-semitic - relating to or characterized by anti-Semitism; hating Jews
Wooz said:
Well I was not really THAT much of a jerk was I? The point still stands, those heart felt stories about the poor plight of the Palestinians do not sway me.
TyloniusFunk
It Wandered In From the Wastes
Bal-Sagoth said:
I think you are confusing arrogance with hopelessness.
Well, if you weren't, I don't think I'd bother posting.
I think everyone here understood that, and that it's pretty moot to try to explain you a different point of view.
So, why is thread still active? What's with the condescending attitude towards people who regard war as a bad thing?
Kid, I think you need a holiday in Sierra Leone.
Bal-Sagoth
Water Chip? Been There, Done That
Wooz said:
Fair enough, While I may respect everyone's opinion it is true I care little for them beyond acknowledging them. So I am sure I can come off a bit uncaring at times.
Wooz said:
I am just responding to everyone else's post, I suppose that is why it is still active? War is a terrible thing, I do not judge anyone who thinks it is bad.
I was simply here cheer leading for Israel. Would you have rather this thread been a big ol circle jerk of dead Palestinian pictures and talking about how the big evil Zionist regime is creating a neo-apartheid wonderland?
I will pass on Sierra Leone, the plight of that place and its people does not interest me in the slightest.
TyloniusFunk
It Wandered In From the Wastes
Bal-Sagoth said:
Stop fomenting antisemitism.
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