Strange arguments you had with other Fallout fans?

I'm honestly shocked by how many people are ignorant and oblivious to DT.

I've had people say "Armour in NV didn't work", whereas they say "power armour works just fine" about Fallout 4.
 
Not necessarily FO fans but more Beth fans and general Roleplay Fans.

I've spoken with one on the old Beth forums saying:
"Beth deliberately made characters dull and uninteresting to allow for better roleplay. I feel sorry for people who don't roleplay."

Now I'm not into hardcore roleplaying myself (beyond picking the logical neutral / chaotic good/ evil choices the game allows) and have no problems if you like that stuff but come the fuck on.
 
There are people that think pretending a role in Bethesdagame is actuall role playing ... so yeah ... not in the least surprising.
Sometimes I don't know if people just convince them self of it, or if they reall believe this to be true.

"I want to play a Hobo in Skyrim!"
"But ... no one sees you as one?"
"But I want to role play a Hobo."
"That's not poss ..."
"I SAID I AM A HOBO!"
 
Sometimes I don't know if people just convince them self of it, or if they reall believe this to be true.

I think the interactions are happening in their heads since a lot of them like to play the game with no map, no fast travel....
I really don't know want to roleplay beyond the interactions present in the game. It's like playing with action figures as a child I guess which again nothing wrong with that. I just find it odd that a lot of these guys will look down on players who don't play their games that way.

Beth is a company that will do what they think the general audience will like and will of course try to draw as many possible new players in thus FO3 & 4 turned out the way they did but somehow the roleplayers think Beth made the games with them as a primary audience in mind.



EDIT: Scratch that. The interactions are DEFINITELY happening in their heads. I remember reading thread posts like:

"Oh that was a great time when Ysolda got caught up in a bad deal with some bandits and I had to go rescue her at [cave] and she was leading me to her location using morsecode communicated telepathically which she somehow learned from the...."

^Or some strange scenario like that the game never ever allows you to do (unless of course someone created a mod). I think what was actually happening in the real world was, the guy talked to Ysolda at the market clicking random dialogue options but thinking up different dialogues in his head then proceeded to enter one of the caves and pretended he was rescuing the girl.
 
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There are people that think pretending a role in Bethesdagame is actuall role playing ... so yeah ... not in the least surprising.
Sometimes I don't know if people just convince them self of it, or if they reall believe this to be true.

"I want to play a Hobo in Skyrim!"
"But ... no one sees you as one?"
"But I want to role play a Hobo."
"That's not poss ..."
"I SAID I AM A HOBO!"

The problem is developers such as EA and Bethesda are actually doing a fine job of completely redefining the definition of RPG to newer or younger players. This insult to a well designed genre that should be secure by itself is utterly horrible in my opinion as it severely limits development options for the future.

From their perspective they are trying to include multiple demographics to satisfy for their games in that objective alone horribly hinders their games.

I personally think it is fine to experiment and innovate, but not at the expense of watering down a completely justified genre to make some quick cash.

I wonder if it is possible to get Skinner box mechanics banned completely from games? What impact would that have on the industry?
 
Yeah, but honestly I don't see those as 'Role Players' or people that actually enjoy role playing. It's just that companies like Bethesda or EA manage to sell games as RPGs to people that don't like RPGs.

I mean you could chose to use nothing else but a knive in CoD and claiming to role play a 'Character that believes to be a knight and using firearms is going against his code of honor'. No one would say that this is a re-defining of RPG elements ... it's just stupidity. And what you have with Skyrim is on the same level, just more sophisticated.
 
I wonder if it is possible to get Skinner box mechanics banned completely from games? What impact would that have on the industry?
A Skinner box is not by definition a bad thing. It's a process designed to reward a player for a desired action. The problem comes when developers use Skinner boxes as shortcuts in design instead of actually putting effort into stuff. That said, banning the Skinner box as a concept would be a horrible idea, especially for people who do enjoy games that use Skinner boxes effectively.
 
A Skinner box is not by definition a bad thing. It's a process designed to reward a player for a desired action. The problem comes when developers use Skinner boxes as shortcuts in design instead of actually putting effort into stuff. That said, banning the Skinner box as a concept would be a horrible idea, especially for people who do enjoy games that use Skinner boxes effectively.

I disagree, the whole point of a Skinner box is to condition someone or something to react to specific stimuli to force them to output a result to either gain a reward or a consequence. This forces those conditioned to fruitlessly continue repeating tasks in the hope of a reward or optimal result.

If you think mundane and repetitive tasks are a good thing, hey that's a valid opinion on how it could be of benefit. I can also understand where you are coming from based on how such a mechanic quickly rewards players with the "I did good feels". However such a brain chemical reaction to this form of gratification is always short lived, and dulls severely over time. This will force those caught in its "conditions" to repeat actions to replicate that the initial result, just like a drug addict chasing a high.

From my perspective any use of a such a mechanic is by default lazy and malicious. The reason is because to implement a Skinner box mechanic it has to permeate the entire game to be considered a Skinner box, as in the key feature. Micro "Skinner box" moments would not be considered as such as they will not condition a player through repetition as required by the definition of a Skinner box.

When caught inside such a box the player may have multiple and dynamic forms of information that can condition a response. This is basically a very low end of thought control to "encourage" the player to output a specific result. Without such a mechanic the player would be free to interact and make choices based on their perspective rather than to prevent a consequence or gain a reward.

I understand someone will now attempt to debate that most if not all games are a form of conditioning to get the player to achieve a specific result, I will concede that a lot of games today do indeed implement such tactics. However well designed games don't implement such a mechanic, and try their utmost to steer clear from it all together. (When I reference well designed games I'm focusing on player agency in the game world.)

In short there is no effective way to implement Skinner box mechanics in an effectively positive and non malicious way.

But hey, if people want someone else to tell them how to play a game, how to solve a puzzle, or maybe think then by all means please continue.

*Edit: I forgot to include that "Skinner box or lever box" mechanics are also not considered mentally stimulating or engaging. Here is an article that will back up my position: https://thejellyfishstolemymoney.wordpress.com/2011/01/24/a-skinner-box-is-not-a-form-of-torture/
 
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Yeah, fuck boxes.

One god damned game started it, then the WHOLE industry went.

"Hey, we can fleece the customers...AND their wallets even more!"
 
The only boxes I think I can be okay with, is 100% free skins with no way of purchasing them.

Want a good skin? Play the game.
 
Oh yeah, and Fallout 3 is a shooter now. Fuck shooters! Get rid of shooters! They are cancer! etc.

Guys. Bad artists blame their tools. Don't blame the tools. Blame the artists. The Skinner Box as far as gaming goes, can be done right, it has been done right. Don't shit on it, just because YOU personaly hate the concept or because there are game developers that are lazy as fuck. I mean the number of really shitty shooters, like Fallout 4, is pretty high. Do you blame the shooter as genre? No you don't.
 
Oh yeah, and Fallout 3 is a shooter now. Fuck shooters! Get rid of shooters! They are cancer! etc.

Guys. Bad artists blame their tools. Don't blame the tools. Blame the artists. The Skinner Box as far as gaming goes, can be done right, it has been done right. Don't shit on it, just because YOU personaly hate the concept or because there are game developers that are lazy as fuck. I mean the number of really shitty shooters, like Fallout 4, is pretty high. Do you blame the shooter as genre? No you don't.

I'm not sure what the Diablo vid is supposed to represent as while that game does have similar mechanics, it is inherently not a "skinner box" as the game is focused around story and character building. If you play the single player you can literally never repeat any dungeon and still beat the game. There is progression and growth with allowances for player choice on how to tackle the threat. Therefore Diablo or Diablo 2 do not employ Skinner box Mechanics, however Diablo 3 does because they turned the entire game into a simple numbers game.

However I will concede the multiplayer can tend to get a bit "grindy" but even then there are tools or other players that can aid in that experience.

My largest beef with Skinner Box mechanics is that they don't engage a player nor do they sufficiently reward or present a viable consequence to their action. In it's simplest form a slot machine shows how little effort can be placed into it. But what I'm trying to convey with this in relation to Fallout 4 is that Bethesda has a simple 3 step cycle that everything in the game follows without deviation. The dungeons have a 3 step system that don't deviate, and the rewards have a 3 step system that do not deviate. At no time does the player have any agency, and when the player does attempt to acquire their agency they go unrewarded and the consequence is that they cannot reap any reward for doing so.

For example the "kill loot return" for quests
Dungeons follow the layout of "intro/kill/reward"
Rewards follow "obtain/combine/use"

This forces the player to either "play the linear path" or not to play at all.
 
Oh yeah, and Fallout 3 is a shooter now. Fuck shooters! Get rid of shooters! They are cancer! etc.

Guys. Bad artists blame their tools. Don't blame the tools. Blame the artists. The Skinner Box as far as gaming goes, can be done right, it has been done right. Don't shit on it, just because YOU personaly hate the concept or because there are game developers that are lazy as fuck. I mean the number of really shitty shooters, like Fallout 4, is pretty high. Do you blame the shooter as genre? No you don't.
I don't consider F4 a shitty shooter, but everything else you said was right on the money.
 
There are people that think pretending a role in Bethesdagame is actuall role playing ... so yeah ... not in the least surprising.
Sometimes I don't know if people just convince them self of it, or if they reall believe this to be true.

"I want to play a Hobo in Skyrim!"
"But ... no one sees you as one?"
"But I want to role play a Hobo."
"That's not poss ..."
"I SAID I AM A HOBO!"

This is actually somewhat frustrating to discuss on the official forums. I've brought it up a few times and the response toes the line between "It's Bethesda's game, they can label it whatever they like" and "RPG can mean anything and is open to interpretation."

With the recent addition of creation club, the same people that made these statements have completely shifted and started railing against Pete Hines/Bethesda for trying to re-label microtransactions as "mini-dlc."
 
There are people that think pretending a role in Bethesdagame is actuall role playing ... so yeah ... not in the least surprising.
Sometimes I don't know if people just convince them self of it, or if they reall believe this to be true.

"I want to play a Hobo in Skyrim!"
"But ... no one sees you as one?"
"But I want to role play a Hobo."
"That's not poss ..."
"I SAID I AM A HOBO!"

God I hate that too.

Some friends downloaded the 'random start' sorts of mods and were like.

"Cool! Now I'm a raider barbarian from the north!"

No, you're the Dragonborn, everyone will treat you like shit like earlier, just now you start with random shit-tier gear.
 
There are people that think pretending a role in Bethesdagame is actuall role playing ... so yeah ... not in the least surprising.
Sometimes I don't know if people just convince them self of it, or if they reall believe this to be true.

"I want to play a Hobo in Skyrim!"
"But ... no one sees you as one?"
"But I want to role play a Hobo."
"That's not poss ..."
"I SAID I AM A HOBO!"

If there's a way I roleplay, it has to make sense along with the game. I can see roleplaying as warrior/mage/thief aspects just fine, as the game allows you to go upon those paths via gameplay.
I have met these kind of people as well, but I just let them to be at their bubble. Of course, they like to get all mad seeing how I play the game.
 

Please be a joke.

It isn't...Fuck.

Slow down! You don't need to run/jump everywhere. Take a walk in the forests.

You gotta be shitting me, they seriously want to WALK everywhere!?

Although it is not necessary, eating regularly is an easy way to enhance roleplaying.

THEN HAVE A FOOD BAR IN THE GAME THEN, GRAH.
Simulate damage from combat beyond simply losing health.

*Brain haemorage*'

Do...Do people actually play games like this?

That's like...The epitome of autism.


 
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