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Discussion in 'General Discussion Forum' started by Crni Vuk, Oct 6, 2019.
Culture is irrelevant.
The issue here is not that we (figuratively speaking) do not see the difference in culture, race or religion. The issue is that by some individuals out there culture is used narratively like as it's a race when it comes to discrediting people. And often real issues are extended to the culture as a whole while the own culture is often ignored. This is shown by the fact that Judaism was often treated like a race. The Nazis took this idea to the extreme. And it's still a part of the extreme right even today. Follow the rabbit hole of the "George Soros Conspiracy" deep enough and what meets you at the end? The "Eternal Jew".
Just to give one example for today. Iran is without a doubt a dictatorship and they are ruled by religious extremists and there are certainly many issues we can talk about here. However how much of that is part of the Iranian culture or even the Islamic religion? That's a very complicated debate as it touches on the history of the nation, the relationship it had with others, education, the opinion of the people and many more. Which isn't mean to be an excuse by the way. Because you could as well ask, how much of the violence we see today in the United States for example is part of the gun culture? Would it be fair to blame mass shooters solely on US culture? Or would it be fair to say that every American agrees with the political decisions of their leadership and government? I would say most people would disagree with such simplifications.
Not to mention that many so called "critics" use those talking points to form their anti-immigration policy. In other words they broaden it so much that suddenly every individual is representative of their nation, their culture and where they come from. Which when we look at it in detail is often inaccurate.
It works on the same narrative principles and logic like racism if you narrow down every individual on nothing but their culture or religion for that matter. That you give people a value on traits that are nothing more but a generalisation. A black man is suddenly something, because he's black. Same with religion and culture. In other words, it's about stereotypes. And you can actually do this with every culture, religion, nationality or race.
Does that mean we can or should not criticise something? Of course we can! And of course we should! But we should always pay attention to the complexity of the issues we talk about.
^ This is what I always admired and loved about America.
I have always agreed that your run of the mill Iranians do not hate America. Most of them could be argued that they do not take Islam all that seriously.
The problem has always been the government. The problem also is the fact that the citizens and most importantly, police and military authorities, do not see the situation that their leaders have put them in, as worthy of a revolution/regime change.
I mean, Irans economy is crippled, they recently had to roll back fuel subsidies that brought on mass protests.
So why, if the Iranian government is in such trouble, do they continue to involve themselves in foreign adventures? They know that the chances of the U.S. backing down, even with isolation Trump, is low, because Trump isn't the only boss, unlike other countries.
I mean after the S.U. fell, a great many countries realised that America won and that they should better get with the program and play ball with America. Hell, we had a brutal war with Vietnam and we are all kumbayah now.
Why can't the Iranian government just swallow their pride for the benefit of the Iranian people and change their ways? I mean, the original Khomeini told the people that he wouldn't take power and just did it anyways. The whole of Iranian government was built on a lie. Originally, most of the people who wanted change weren't the religious folk but the leftists. Imagine their surprise when the religious nutjobs took over and suppressed leftist opposition like the Tudeh party. Essentially, Irans revolution was completely hijacked by the god folks.
Exactly. I notice this quite often when I talk with people here, in Germany, about Americans. There are so many wrong ideas about the country and the people. But I guess that's simply what happens everywhere. Americans sure have some idea about what Germans are or Europeans in general which might not represent the actual Germans.
Because Iran is one of the regional powers in the middle east. Just like Saudi Arabia and Israel. And their concern are, if they don't spread their influence in Irak or Syria then the other countries will. What we see in the middle east right now is actually a proxy war between the regional powers with the intention to become the dominate factor with one of the major conflicts between Iran and Saudi Arabi. Israels concern is that they might see a united Arabian world against them, like in the 60s. In that sense Iran has a foreign policy that is, from the idea, not so vastly different to the United States just on a smaller scale. Their methods are more questionable and a lot more covert. But the gist is very similar. Spreading influence and gaining control as a form of protection. You shouldn't forget that Iran had a 12 year conflict with Irak which was pretty gruesome, I once meet someone who actually fought in it, it even saw a large use of chemical weapons. This among many other conflicts in the middle east probably still has a huge effect on their decision making in the government. The regime wants to stay in power and they simply fear foreign influence they are supported for the most part by Russia and their interests simply clash with Saudi Arabia which is backed up mostly by the United States. So this is also about what ever if there is more American or Russian influence in the middle east. And when you look at the history that fear is not completely baseless like when you look how the Ruhollah Chomeini actually got in to power. They do not want to become a second Irak or Syria. So they actively seek out to influence others. And all of that is still a simplification of a much more complex issue. We haven't even talked about the conflict between Shia and Sunni which goes on well since the middle ages.
You mean like, European countries like the Nordic countries and Germany? These countries should give up UHC etc. and allow US troops into their nations?
I wonder if that's true though. There is still a lot of bad blood and unsolved stuff from WW 2 in the region between, for example, Japan and China. And of course North and South Korea's are basically in a state of war. I don't think Vietnam's war has ever really been looked at. There were basically zero war crimes trials after that conflict even though millions died. Stuff like My Lai look pretty bad.
What do you mean "allow US troops into their nations"? You mean the 33,000 US soldiers we have in Germany right now are not actually allowed here?
I sure as shit did not allow them there. They invited themselves in. You know, the whole ordeal after splitting Germany into two. Kind of like how they invited themselves into Korea and Vietnam, etc.
Holy shit, just stop. Sometimes your stupidity literally makes me slam my face into my desk.
First and foremost, judaism is _not_ a culture, it is a population, doesn't matter if they are Ashkenazi or Semitic jews, they are all related; https://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/10/science/10jews.html
And how is it a conspiracy? George Soros is an outspoken globalist, and he is Jewish. Where the fuck is the conspiracy here?
Fagula as much as I love you dude, but are you obtuse or something?
Do you just read one or two words from a whole text and get triggered by it leaving the whole context of the conversation out? Besides I never claimed *robot voice* judaism_to_be_a_culture. My actual point is, to be precise that certain narratives are criticising culture like as it would be a race and using those talking points as justification for discrimination where they judge an individual based solely on their culture, nationality or religious belief. Like for example as if I would treat every American based only my knowledge about rural Texas or Alabama. Or every Swedish person on their habit of eating stinking fermented fish ~ Surströmming. It's about stereotypes, which we all simply have about certain regions and people and those stereotypes shaping our belief and in some cases the policies we support. Like for example, me watching a Video from a Swedish dude eating properly Surströmming and concluding that we should not let anyone from Sweden immigrate in to Germany, as there is a real danger that they will also, import their stinking fermented fish an we simply can't take the chance. Because, (...) when Mexico Sweden sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems stinking fish, and they’re bringing those problems stinking fish with us. They’re bringing drugs Surströmming. They’re rapists fermenting fish. And some, I assume, are good people not eating it.” source. (...)
When I said "judaism" I was meaning the way how GERMAN JEWS have been treated by the Nazi regime with their "RASSENLEHRE" ideology where they explained Jews to be of a "different" blood than pure-bred aryan supermenschen or some other contrived bullshit which was used as justification for the Holocaust where they aimed to exterminate all Jews in Europe. Judaism is an ambiguous term. Yes I know that there is also "Judaism" as a nationality with the people living in Israel. But it clearly is not as simple like a "race" in the context of the Nazi ideology. Or what exactly are you trying to tell me here? Because I am also not sure what you're trying to show me with that article, except that we share some common genes with our ancestors? Uhm. Ok? I am sure some people living in Northumbria today share some genes with their Viking ancestors who raped and pillaged their way trough the country. Are they less British because of that? Or does that justify the Holocaust on Jews between 1933-45? Or does that prove the Naziparty in the 1940s have been correct?
What's your message here. Because I clearly don't get it.
Second, Georg Soros is part of a conspiracy theory perpetuated by the extreme right that he's aiming to replace "pure" Europeans with Africans and migrants or what ever, see here. This Theory is quite popular in some extreme right wing circles particularly eastern Europe. But when you try to get to the bottom of that theory you end up with Antisemitism. This is the root of it. And not Soros support of progressive policies and globalism. Seriously. When you dig a bit deeper you find almost any antisemitic talking point, Jewish Marxism, Jewish Internationalism, Jews controlling the financial markets and so on.
Instead of just taking almost everything I say out of context why not simply ASK(!) what I mean for fucks sake ...
If you diss fermented herring I will literally start walking to Germany and challenge you to a duel. Also, stereotypes exist for a reason, there is a reason people think gypsies behave like they do, because they have historically acted like that. There will always be exceptions but as a general rule stereotypes points towards behavioural issues in groups.
And modern day genetics have proven this fact, jews are different as they are all related. Also you have to take into account how the jewish groups behaved towards Germany in the post-war period to understand what happened and why that kind of thinking gained power. Germany, and even Hitler was pro-Israel for a very long time and even paid the tickets for anyone that wanted to move there until the UK declared war and _refused_ German jews to moved there.
It's not a conspiracy theory as that is literally what he is doing, and he has said so on several occasions.
Yes they sometimes do and stereotypes exist with every nationality, culture or ethnicity. My point was that other nations hold stereotypes about us as well. But that doesn't mean that we should treat people based solely on the stereotypes we hold or that those stereotypes are everything there is when it comes to treating another human being.
Did you know that some Germans which immigrated into Switzerland came back to Germany because they have been victims to Swiss stereotypes about Germans?
Even if some stereotypes might have certain truths in them they still are not a justification for discrimination - that's my point - because well as you say by your self, there are exceptions.
Wait. You mean this seriously? Different in what way exactly? Can we really be specific here please. Because I really hate this guess-what-he-now-means game.
Where has modern day genetics proven that Jews are "different" in the context of our CURRENT conversation her which is about discriminating people up to the point where it leads to a genocide. Besides I really really doubt that the Germans of the 1920s have been so versed in genetics that they could actually tell a "Jew" from a "pure blooded" German by scientific methods. What you talk about here is ancestry which predates modern history. Do you see me making the serious claim that you today act like the Vikings of the middle ages?
And when you say post war period I can only assume you mean WW1. Did you know that Jews actually fought for Germany in WW1? As we know today, trough historical records, some Jews have been in high ranking positions even. Jews in Germany have been integrated into the German society. They have been Germans. With the only difference that they have been Germans following (but not always) the jewish religion. The Nazis based all of their racial theories on what we know today as completely stupendous errors. The genetics and genetic research today has nothing to do with the kind of research they did. The Jews in the 1930s living in Germany for many generations have been Germans. The same way how there are today catholic and protestants in Britain or what ever. But no one would ever get the idea that someone is NOT British because of them being catholics. There is zero scientific basis that would actually justify - because that is what we're talking about right now - the way how Jews have been treated in Germany after WW1 or even the Holocaust. What happend in Germany during the 1930s is the purest form of racism that you can find out there.
So let me be blunt here. You believe Soros wants or supports a white genocide?
Okay, so? I have stereotypes about Germans too, they come here and steal our moose crossing signs. Still love them Germans though.
Different to Europeans, as they are not from Europe originally. As I said, you can trace the Semitic haplogroups, and all European Ashkenazi are like 300 cousins or something, which is much more closely related than you see in other ethnic groups in Europe.
When I say post-war period I mean the post-war period, after ww1 and before ww2.
I believe Soros want to import cheap foreign labour.
The problem is, many of Irans problems are a result of their religious leaders not backing down. Who knows how things might be different if they make a small change in policy? Our original plan was to have TWO friends in the ME, both SA and Iran. The Khomeneis and Carter fucked that all up.
If a nation plays ball with the U.S. we have no reason to want to fuck your shit up.
How about not chanting death to America and Israel? You don't see the Vietnamese government doing this. Sure everything may not be perfect with the Vietnamese but they do not call us the great Satan. They were wiling to let things go for the sake of a better relationship with us. The Vietnamese KNOW that we are the logical choice to help them with their problems with China. Hell, we are even selling them weapons now.
And if allowing troops is what it takes to not have a crippling sanctions, why not right? I mean look at the Saudis, they have allowed us there and bought our shit for years. Every fucking president we have had knows not to fuck shit up with the Saudis, EVEN at the expense of Israel, whom we often bend over backwards for. The Israelis are one of the few countries who have tech transfer and can modify their F-35s the way they want.
Iran can have it good too if they just fucking play ball.
Are things really that bad over there with U.S. soldiers? Not to mention you euros want this. How will you pay for all your socialist stuff when you actually have to pay for a real euro force that looks out for your interests? Boris Johnson just recently said the U.K. should strengthen their military because the Brits shouldn't depend on us so much. I wonder who is going to pay for this military?
P.S. Death to America and Israel.
And who's "originally" from Europe? As far as my knowledge goes there are no more Neanderthals around.
My point is, I have no clue what you're to achieve by explaining a 3000 year old ancestry.
Your knowledge is very limited then. Scandinavians have the highest amount of neanderthal DNA in all of Europe. And even if we are counting after the indo-aryan invasion there are plenty of native Europeans around.
Because you seem to claim that a lot of this is just "MADE UP RACISM MAN!!11" where as it is not.
Okay, it's time to call a timeout you big babies. Take 10, eat something nice, and then come back with solid arguments because this is boring incomprehensive shit
Or you could simply not care, ignore the topic and let the big boys have their talk?
Even though I was joking to illustrate that regardless what ancestors people had 3000 years ago, it has very little impact on Europeans today. Jews living today in Germany have ancestors from the middle east. Ok? So what now.
Also I am pretty certain the amount of non-Neandertal DNA is bigger with every human today. But I am hardly an expert in that field I have to admit. Still. At least 96% of your Scandinavian DNA is from homo sapiens.
Seriously I think you have a reading comprehension problem. Right now I am talking about the Racism which specifically happend between 1920 and 1945 regarding Jews which has nothing to do with the science that's done today. Do you really, in all honesty want to tell me that this article you linked above is a sort of post-justification for that racism or something like that? I never disputed any difference in genetics due to the different ancestry most people have. So again. What is your fucking point?
How'd we get from Trump to the Holocaust? This is practically unrelated unless you're one of those "Trump = literally Hitler" types
Then maybe you should read the posts in question again instead of attacking us. Not my problem if you feel lost. Sorry. No one here made the argument that Trump was Hitler.
I'm not attacking you Crni, just a little out of the loop. No need to get upset