Terrorist attack on French satirical magazine

[Akratus]

In the eighties Western intellectuals formed one solid block when Salman Rushdie was facing a fatwa calling for his assassination. No so anymore.

You don't know how sad this makes me feel.

Spoiler

All of those communities are and have been very involved in actively trying to stop any radicalizing they can.

This can be clearly seen in Syria and Iraq where pretty much all the fighting on the ground is done by ... Kurds. Who are perceived as terrorists by a large part of "all those communities" you're alluding to.

So yeah, BS.

They showed a class debate about the attack on the news this afternoon: moderate muslim children in Belgium are not shocked by this terrorist act. 'Everybody knows you shouldn't portray Muhammed,' was all they could say. No 'we have to defend freedom of press' or 'making fun of religious zealots should be allowed'.

And why should they? Muslim fundamentalists aren't the only group demanding that certain words, certain behaviour should be forbidden. So do feminists, homosexuals, politicians, the handicapped ... And we listen to them, don't we? Even if only to stop their incessant whining.

Now, naturally, we shouldn't expect all of these desillusioned, abused, bullied, repressed groups to use rhetorics to achieve their goal. We shouldn't expect all of these groups to fight for their cause with essays and books and debates. Not everyone can be Ghandi. Of course not. Some of these groups will use other ways of righting the wrongs. Knives. Bombs. AK-47's.

Charlie Hebdo gets a lot of support right now, but that used to be different. Even now, after the tragedy, an oikophobe like Sander has already called the magazine a racist publication. It is not. It is a satirical magazine that heckles all religions, politics, injustice. Many years ago, when Charlie Hebdo was experiencing its first clashes with muslims who interpret the Qu'ran as a war declaration, an ever growing group I should add, the liberal left chose the side of islam. Because political correctness demanded it. Here was a part of the West, an educated, intellectual part of it and a powerful part at that, who was so afraid of islam, so truly islamophobic, that it was willing to give into their demands. Yes, it was insensitive to draw cartoons about a military leader and self-proclaimed prophet. In less than 30 years the West had weakened. In the eighties Western intellectuals formed one solid block when Salman Rushdie was facing a fatwa calling for his assassination. No so anymore.

What we see today, all those people joining the "Je suis Charlie" movement, is Western hypocrisy in its purest form. Once the guys who did this are caught or killed, we will soon hear from the political correct again. Two murderers will become two desillusioned brothers, discriminated against from birth like all muslims are discriminated against constantly, incessantly in the free West, the big bully. Two brothers who had no other options in life - because the West who invested in them, offered them a home without wars, damaged them anyway, them and their people. And their religion which is more important than all other religions for it is the last, the definite word of God.

As always, the oikophobic part of the people will side with the "moderate" muslims who think it's really sad that people got killed and can't wait to say so on tv, but firmly believe that no one is entitled to draw Muhammed. Because Muhammed said so.

If political correctness is not corrected itself, it will eventually devastate the West. It is opening the gates to barbarians and asking us to not show any fear, not have any comments and definitely have no critique. It is asking us to accept things completely alien to our own culture and erase parts of our own, just to avoid problems and circumvent violence. It is turning us into Swiss cheese.

Keep this up and sooner or later we will have battlefields in Europe once again.

Parts I disagree with in bold.
No opinion/partially disagree/don't know about striped parts.

 

[Ilosar]

All of those communities are and have been very involved in actively trying to stop any radicalizing they can.

This can be clearly seen in Syria and Iraq where pretty much all the fighting on the ground is done by ... Kurds. Who are perceived as terrorists by a large part of "all those communities" you're alluding to.

So yeah, BS.

They showed a class debate about the attack on the news this afternoon: moderate muslim children in Belgium are not shocked by this terrorist act. 'Everybody knows you shouldn't portray Muhammed,' was all they could say. No 'we have to defend freedom of press' or 'making fun of religious zealots should be allowed'.

And why should they? Muslim fundamentalists aren't the only group demanding that certain words, certain behaviour should be forbidden. So do feminists, homosexuals, politicians, the handicapped ... And we listen to them, don't we? Even if only to stop their incessant whining.

Now, naturally, we shouldn't expect all of these desillusioned, abused, bullied, repressed groups to use rhetorics to achieve their goal. We shouldn't expect all of these groups to fight for their cause with essays and books and debates. Not everyone can be Ghandi. Of course not. Some of these groups will use other ways of righting the wrongs. Knives. Bombs. AK-47's.

Charlie Hebdo gets a lot of support right now, but that used to be different. Even now, after the tragedy, an oikophobe like Sander has already called the magazine a racist publication. It is not. It is a satirical magazine that heckles all religions, politics, injustice. Many years ago, when Charlie Hebdo was experiencing its first clashes with muslims who interpret the Qu'ran as a war declaration, an ever growing group I should add, the liberal left chose the side of islam. Because political correctness demanded it. Here was a part of the West, an educated, intellectual part of it and a powerful part at that, who was so afraid of islam, so truly islamophobic, that it was willing to give into their demands. Yes, it was insensitive to draw cartoons about a military leader and self-proclaimed prophet. In less than 30 years the West had weakened. In the eighties Western intellectuals formed one solid block when Salman Rushdie was facing a fatwa calling for his assassination. No so anymore.

What we see today, all those people joining the "Je suis Charlie" movement, is Western hypocrisy in its purest form. Once the guys who did this are caught or killed, we will soon hear from the political correct again. Two murderers will become two desillusioned brothers, discriminated against from birth like all muslims are discriminated against constantly, incessantly in the free West, the big bully. Two brothers who had no other options in life - because the West who invested in them, offered them a home without wars, damaged them anyway, them and their people. And their religion which is more important than all other religions for it is the last, the definite word of God.

As always, the oikophobic part of the people will side with the "moderate" muslims who think it's really sad that people got killed and can't wait to say so on tv, but firmly believe that no one is entitled to draw Muhammed. Because Muhammed said so.

If political correctness is not corrected itself, it will eventually devastate the West. It is opening the gates to barbarians and asking us to not show any fear, not have any comments and definitely have no critique. It is asking us to accept things completely alien to our own culture and erase parts of our own, just to avoid problems and circumvent violence. It is turning us into Swiss cheese.

Keep this up and sooner or later we will have battlefields in Europe once again.

Given that I remember you saying that Brejvik's victims deserved it, your political opinion is noted but disregarded.

 

[Sander]

Treating people with respect isn't done out of fear, alec, nor out of self-hatred. It's done out of a sense basic human decency, and the realization that everyone is a human being who deserves to be treated with respect. A realization that hatred is never a useful response. And a realization that the pattern of Islamophobia is not new, and is as nonsensical and dangerous now as when it was applied to Protestants, and Catholics, and Jews.

A supposed fundamental core value of 'liberal' societies is that everyone's treated equally. That we do not discriminate based on ethnicity, or gender, or sexuality, or any group characteristics -- including religion. It's telling how quickly people like alec will drop that core value while simultaneously screaming about the defense of "our own culture."

Given that I remember you saying that Brejvik's victims deserved it, your political opinion is noted but disregarded.

I don't know if he went quite that far, but alec's response at the time certainly wasn't very sympathetic. Fairly telling that his opinions at the time painted Breivik as the inevitable consequence of capitalist society and a minor drama that is getting far too much coverage. The murder of 12 cartoonists? Western society is under attack! Breivik "had a brain seizure or something," but terrorists are representative of their religion.

 

[cronicler]

Sander (this is a reply to your very first post and any others that may think this is not true islam.), these specimens are not some fringe sect. Yes, it's sad but backed by the oil cash, the Saudi flavored wahabism and salafism have basically taken over a very very large percentage of the Sunni part of the Islam. Yes, people might be saying that they are hanefi, shafi etc but more and more the imams are preaching the most psychotic, false and evil lies to further their own agendas and this is the result.
Yes, this isn't the true islam but when most are poisoned and brainwashed, then from a practical perspective, being sane and trying to stay true to Quran means you are an effin heretic.

 

[Sander]

Sander (this is a reply to your very first post and any others that may think this is not true islam.), these specimens are not some fringe sect. Yes, it's sad but backed by the oil cash, the Saudi flavored wahabism and salafism have basically taken over a very very large percentage of the Sunni part of the Islam. Yes, people might be saying that they are hanefi, shafi etc but more and more the imams are preaching the most psychotic, false and evil lies to further their own agendas and this is the result.
Yes, this isn't the true islam but when most are poisoned and brainwashed, then from a practical perspective, being sane and trying to stay true to Quran means you are an effin heretic.

There are 1.6 billion Muslims on this planet. The group that commits violent, terrorist acts is a tiny, tiny, tiny slice of that groups. This isn't the result of "more and more" imams preaching hatred -- especially not in Europe, where every Muslim European is acutely aware that violence and terrorism hurt them directly by poisoning the discourse. Instead, European mosques have been nearly universally trying their hardest to prevent radicalization -- if only because radicalization is not in their interests. I am less familiar with mosques outside of Europe, but there's a reason why ISIS is a separate state and everyone surrounding that state is fighting it.

What we know of radicalization is that it tends to happen online. That those radicalized are often not very familiar with Islam, and that radicalization happens quickly -- and this speaks to complex motives that are different from "my religion tells me to." This is why Muslim Brits traveling to fight in Syria ordered 'Islam for Dummies' and 'The Koran for Dummies':

Instead they point to other drivers of radicalisation: moral outrage, disaffection, peer pressure, the search for a new identity, for a sense of belonging and purpose. As Atran pointed out in testimony to the US Senate in March 2010: “... what inspires the most lethal terrorists in the world today is not so much the Quran or religious teachings as a thrilling cause and call to action that promises glory and esteem in the eyes of friends, and through friends, eternal respect and remembrance in the wider world.” He described wannabe jihadists as “bored, under*employed, overqualified and underwhelmed” young men for whom “jihad is an egalitarian, equal-opportunity employer ... thrilling, glorious and cool.”​

If these were more than fringe extremists, we'd be seeing a lot more terrorist attacks in "the West" than we do. If this were actually widespread and preached widely, the most deadly terrorist attack in Europe of the past decade would not have been Anders Breivik's.

 

[Atomkilla]

There are 1.6 billion Muslims on this planet. The group that commits violent, terrorist acts is a tiny, tiny, tiny slice of that groups. This isn't the result of "more and more" imams preaching hatred -- especially not in Europe, where every Muslim European is acutely aware that violence and terrorism hurt them directly by poisoning the discourse. Instead, European mosques have been nearly universally trying their hardest to prevent radicalization -- if only because radicalization is not in their interests. I am less familiar with mosques outside of Europe, but there's a reason why ISIS is a separate state and everyone surrounding that state is fighting it.

Yeah, not true.
Check the situation in Balkans - check the situation in southern Serbia/Kosovo for instance. Or is Europe just EU?

 

[Sander]

Yeah, not true.
Check the situation in Balkans - check the situation in southern Serbia/Kosovo for instance. Or is Europe just EU?

Oh, fair point, and my bad -- I shouldn't conflate Europe with just those areas I'm most familiar with. Bad habit. Sorry. I'm not overly familiar with the situation you're referring to, what do you mean exactly?

 

[cronicler]

Sander, your average "muslim" has no fucking clue what Quran dictates as they have never ever actually read the bloody book. Your "average" muslim is such a lazy specimen that s/he looks at imam to translate what Quran dictates and leaves it at that. What imam says is what Islam is and today, most of the imams are wahabi or salafi brand liars. The average has shifted from the "old" 4 sects to waaay further down.

 

[Akratus]

Given that I remember you saying that Brejvik's victims deserved it

 

[Sander]

Sander, your average "muslim" has no fucking clue what Quran dictates as they have never ever actually read the bloody book. Your "average" muslim is such a lazy specimen that s/he looks at imam to translate what Quran dictates and leaves it at that. What imam says is what Islam is and today, most of the imams are wahabi or salafi brand liars. The average has shifted from the "old" 4 sects to waaay further down.

I'm not talking about whether or not the average Muslim reads the Qu'ran or comes up with his own interpretation. I'm pointing out that violent extremism is fringe. As evidenced by the fact that actual violent terrorism is exceedingly rare in Europe and elsewhere, on a population of 1.6 billion. And while Salafism may or may not be on the rise (I can't find any solid numbers on this), Salafism itself is not inherently supportive of terrorist attacks, either.

 

[cronicler]

No, it isn't. The main "tenet" of salafism is destroy the heretic, convert his get and plunder his wealth. And for a salafi, anyone who isn't a salafi is heretic.
For your average muslim, what Imam says is what Islam is and since the position of Imam are occupied by salafi trained/backed individuals, the perception/thought process of the muslims is going southbound, really fast.
Yes they might not be attacking you personally but they freely and happily donate to organisations who openly aim to destroy whatever it is we think as the modern civilization.
Yes only a few might have the balls to back their thoughts but as more and more muslims are being trained/brainwashed every year, this caliphate EU shit will only increase.

 

[Gonzalez]

Ok, let's say all muslim are all asholes who want to kill you and supress your freedoms, how would you proceed then?

1998 people, they totally saw this one comming:

 

[Crni Vuk]

Sander, your average "muslim" has no fucking clue what Quran dictates as they have never ever actually read the bloody book. Your "average" muslim is such a lazy specimen that ...

And people said muslims can't immigrate to the western world.

Also, well done! You just talked about billions of people like they are nothing.

Yeah, not true.
Check the situation in Balkans - check the situation in southern Serbia/Kosovo for instance. Or is Europe just EU?

Oh, fair point, and my bad -- I shouldn't conflate Europe with just those areas I'm most familiar with. Bad habit. Sorry. I'm not overly familiar with the situation you're referring to, what do you mean exactly?

he's exagerating. It depends on the area. The Balkan is a messed up place. In Serbia muslims don't have it easy. No minority actually. The autorities had no issue to shoot at homosexuals in the past for example. At least from what I remember, but I dont know, I have not been to Serbia for 15 years. And I have no interest to ever visit this shithole again.

Things are different in Croatia and the Kosovo I guess at least in areas where the muslims might be the majority.

But at least if we talk about the European Union what you say is definitely true.

 

[Deleted member 53669]

 

[Cimmerian Nights]

Salafism itself is not inherently supportive of terrorist attacks, either.

This probably falls more under Wahabism, but clearly there are more factors than Ismlamophobic oppression that result in breeding extremism, it's being taught in Saudi schools.

PBS Frontline:


Here are two extracts from Ministry of Education textbooks used by middle school students in Saudi Arabia. The books were published in 2000. The first extract, "The Victory of Muslims Over Jews," is from the prophet Mohammed's sayings, HADITHS. The second extract is from EXPLANATIONS [of the Koran]. It also deals with Muslims and Jews and presents an interpretation of part of a Sura from the Koran, which says "murder" is a form of punishment for those who acted in opposition to Allah. (For more on Saudi religious education, see FRONTLINE's interviews with Ali al-Ahmed and Mai Yamani and Hassan Youssef Yassin.)

 

[Sander]

@cronicler: I still haven't found a single bit of proof for your repeated claim that mosques are now mostly run by Salafi, and it's actually directly contradicted by most reports I can find -- indeed, most mosques I know of speak of repudiating extremist imams. Moreover, everything I know says that Imams have very little to do with radicalization, and that it mostly happens through networks of radicals -- whether online or in-person. That's not to say that there are no Salafi Imams, of course there are. And of course there are extremist preachers, just as there are in every religion. But to pretend that there's a rising trend of Salafi preachers teaching extremism, that sounds fairly paranoid.

It's also a very simplistic view of how religion tends to work. People have brains. They use them to engage with the message they're being told, and religious beliefs (like any other belief) tend to form over a person's entire lifetime -- incorporating beliefs throughout their life.

This probably falls more under Wahabism, but clearly there are more factors than Ismlamophobic oppression that result in breeding extremism, it's being taught in Saudi schools.

That's a simplified representation of a very small part of Islam. And yes, shit is complicated.

 

[Cimmerian Nights]

That's a simplified representation of a very small part of Islam. And yes, shit is complicated.

Pretty sure I said Wahabism, not as a whole. Not too complicated how they feel and act towards Jews, women, other muslims even, pretty much anyone who isn't Salafist. They are pretty straight forward in word and deed. This is not a consequence of western oppression or Zionism or whatever the rationale is.

 

[Sander]

People are now attacking mosques in France. Ugh.

Pretty sure I said Wahabism, not as a whole. Not too complicated how they feel and act towards Jews, women, other muslims even, pretty much anyone who isn't Salafist. They are pretty straight forward in word and deed. This is not a consequence of western oppression or Zionism or whatever the rationale is.

Ah, sorry, I thought you were conflating Wahabbism with terrorism -- sure, the Saudi version of Salafism/Wahabbism is pretty fucked up.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Oh boy this Pegida fuckers ... they scare me more than this islamisation.

 

[Akratus]

Not that you necessarily believe in it, but Islamization is a myth by the way. Double as many Islamic people could come to any western country and there'd still not be any creeping assimilation or whatever one might call it. Willing conversions maybe, but not le scary islamic take-over, even slightly.