The Game

[Brother None]

I never said you should obey to everything a designer /programmer tells you. All I say is that we can trust a professionals opinion about something until we can form our own on it, instead of keep arguing about it. Fact is we can never do this with Fallout 3.

But...we are able to form our own opinion on this. TB/RT hybrids exist.

Comparing that to politics is totally over the horizon.

No, it's not, and that's a damn cheap way to avoid the point

And no that's NOT what I say. Hell you guys seem to be so fixed about that RT/TB thing that you are totally shooting over the goal.

Fine, don't trust the devs on this. They're talking bullshit. RT/TB can not work. You know it, I know it.

Now pleased?

Uhm, I dunno if you noticed but I don't care about the TB/RT thing. A TB/RT hybrid is fine with me, though I'd prefer it if they didn't fuck over TB in the progress.

That was not my point, my point is the blind slavish devotion to developers that seems to be the fad everywhere. That attitude is just so wrong.

 

[Raymondo2000]

Look Raymondo2000 I was talking about something technical not art/story related. You shoud start reading, dude...

What are you talking about? I’m just pointing out that’s it’s not that easy to design a good game. It’s actually amazing how many people think it is.

 

[Legshot]

That was not my point, my point is the blind slavish devotion to developers that seems to be the fad everywhere. That attitude is just so wrong.

I AM NOT saying you should trust ANY dev on EVERYTHING they say.
I was JUST talking about ONE SINGLE thing we can trust ONE SINGLE developer on.

Stop generalizing everything.

 

[Legshot]

Look Raymondo2000 I was talking about something technical not art/story related. You shoud start reading, dude...

What are you talking about? I’m just pointing out that’s it’s not that easy to design a good game. It’s actually amazing how many people think it is.

I'm takling about that this has absolutely nothing to do with what I'm saying. Look at my last reply if you don't get it.

 

[Raymondo2000]

oh ok... i could go on about that and bring the argument in that programming is a form of art too, at least the way carmack does it, and just because the output is code doesn't mean it's not ART.

I never said anything about programming not being art. I actually believe that game development is art in its own special way

but wat i was trying to say is this:
someone who actually programms an engine which uses a hybrid rt/tb system, who says it's turning out pretty good knows a lot more about it than the average gamer, hence we fans should trust them in what they're telling us.

Nothing more, nothing less... dunno why you people keep arguing about banalities.. of course someone who writes scripts and stories knows not really more about the technical side than the average gamer, but I never said that anyway

You’re having that argument with Saint not me I just pointed out that he’s (John Carmack) a programmer not a designer like you said.

 

[Raymondo2000]

Look Raymondo2000 I was talking about something technical not art/story related. You shoud start reading, dude...

What are you talking about? I’m just pointing out that’s it’s not that easy to design a good game. It’s actually amazing how many people think it is.

I'm takling about that this has absolutely nothing to do with what I'm saying. Look at my last reply if you don't get it.

Yeah because I wasn't talking to you I was talking to Montez thats why it has nothing to do with you and thats why I quoted what he said.

 

[Legshot]

All I say is that we can trust a professionals opinion about something until we can form our own on it, instead of keep arguing about it. Fact is we can never do this with Fallout 3.

That’s a stupid idea, that’s what fans are for to keep game devs in line and tell them what they should be making, they’re making it for the fans not themselves.

Why do you think they even bother to tell people anyway, because they want their opinion.

seesh, it was just ment for one single thing, of course we shouldn't trust them blindly.

But to show of how stupid your "fans keep devs in line" thing is.

Half Life one was made without ANY WHATSOEVER INPUT from ANY fan. Yet it turned out to be one of the most popular and best games of a decade. Half Life 2 has inputs from fans to make it better, but in the end we can trust on the HL2 devs that they're going to deliver a stunning game for us.
And why? Not because we were there to tell em how to do it, but because THEY know how to make cool games. They PROOVED it with HL 1.

So if some hl2 dev comes around and tells me that something his developing will kick ass, then hell yeah I'm trusting him on this. And normally I won't be disapointed about it in the end

 

[rise]

i got a great idea, interplay should make developer trading cards, with all their stats. Like Programmer - NOT DESIGNER, type of stuff on em... i would buy those, 'Claim to fame: fallout 1 dev', oooh man those would be cool

 

[Raymondo2000]

Half Life one was made without ANY WHATSOEVER INPUT from ANY fan. Yet it turned out to be one of the most popular and best games of a decade. Half Life 2 has inputs from fans to make it better, but in the end we can trust on the HL2 devs that they're going to deliver a stunning game for us.
And why? Not because we were there to tell em how to do it, but because THEY know how to make cool games. They PROOVED it with HL 1.

Legshot you’re failing to see the point, game developers don’t always know best. They need fans to keep them on the right track mainly because after a while a game developer looses touch with the fans and forgets what fun.

Valve were new when they released Half life and so they were in touch with the fans. I bet after about 5 years they won’t be as good, fuck me it happened with interplay. My point is that you cant make good games without being in touch with fans, Valve were new and were in touch with the fans.

Kind of blows your whole point out of proportion.

 

[Montez]

But it is harder then it looks, a lot of people same to think game designing is easy and requires very little skill. Well it?s not easy and it does require some skills. Sure anyone can think of a great idea for a game but most likely that idea has already been done. Tell me how do you make a World War 2 FPS game without making it look like a clone of Medal Of Honor, BF1942, RTCW or any other World War 2 FPS games on the market?

Of course, which is why a lot of people who love games have no desire to actually get in the business, and why others who want to get into the business can't. It does take hard work, dedication, skill, talent, and is no doubt very stressful at times. However, this is the case with most jobs that involve any form of creativity, and isn't limited to game development. I'm not saying that no game designer deserves respect, or that anyone can do it - just that common sense says that there are people out there who are just as talented but choose not to pursue a career in game development. There is also probably a large amount of gamers who have the imagination or skill to think of good game ideas, but lack the qualities necessary to actually turn their ideas into anything more than daydreams. The people who design good games deserve the respect and admiration they get - but thousands of games are released each year and the majority of them are pretty much crap, and anyone can make a crap game. It's the same with every line of work - there are people who stand out in their field, but there is an even larger number of people who don't do anything that a large number of other people couldn't do just as easily.

Long story short - Game design is a job. Brilliant game designers > average fan. Mediocre game designers = average fan + good work ethic.

 

[Legshot]

Legshot you’re failing to see the point, game developers don’t always know best. They need fans to keep them on the right track mainly because after a while a game developer looses touch with the fans and forgets what fun.

you are missing the point, I never and still don't say that devs ALWAYS know best. but I say that if a well known dev, who has shown in the past that he knows his thing can say one single thing and we may believe this ONE SINGLE thing...

unbelieveable, where're discussing principles because I said we can believe a devs once, because we are fans of this dev...

Valve were new when they released Half life and so they were in touch with the fans.

wrong... when you're new you don't have any fans, you get fans because of good products you make on your own.

and btw. wasn't interplay always a publisher and never a developer?

 

[Raymondo2000]

Ok you’re really pissing me off now, now listen because you obviously don’t know the English language that well or anything for that matter.

I never and still don't say that devs ALWAYS know best.

I never said you did I was simply pointing out that they don’t

when you're new you don't have any fans

God damn you really are fucking dumb I’m talking about fans of First person shooters, just before Half Life came out FPS were boring. Half life came around and blow people away because it’s just what the genre needed, a game that set a new standard just like Fallout did.

wasn't interplay always a publisher and never a developer?

No they keep going back and forth, no one really knows where their at.

 

[Roshambo]

What he said is right on target actually. The only bitching and moaning I see in this thread is coming from you and Proverbius. Talk about fucking obsessive. You guys need to learn that you're on the friggin internet.

Funny, we are on the internet. We are discussing and debating topics; you are whining. There's a difference.

Yeah, it's easy to be disrespectful, gang up on people, and talk shit, but it makes you look like a big pussy. My opinion of course. Grow up and act like a man.

So instead you whine. Oh, wait, welcome to the internet.

Yeah, I said it. Now bring on the witty retort you spent thirty minutes thinking of, I'm not gonna bother reading it, but I understand you need to save face.

Fine then, don't bother reading it. It doesn't bother me much.

Apolgies to Odin, Briosfreak, and Kharn. You guys feel the need to ban me -- go for it.

Thanks. Done.

I can't stand people who use the internet as a platform to be try and sound like a badass or gang up on people though.

It's called debate, moron. We only get a bit irate at those who presume to try and bullshit their way through the discussion whilst clueless (Legshot) and those who try to blow smoke up our ass (danien).

 

[Legshot]

when you're new you don't have any fans

God damn you really are fucking dumb I’m talking about fans of First person shooters, just before Half Life came out FPS were boring. Half life came around and blow people away because it’s just what the genre needed, a game that set a new standard just like Fallout did.

you said

Valve were new when they released Half life and so they were in touch with the fans.

and i said when you're new you don't have any fans, so you can't be in touch with them

 

[Legshot]

It's called debate, moron. We only get a bit irate at those who presume to try and bullshit their way through the discussion whilst clueless (Legshot) and those who try to blow smoke up our ass (danien).

what you're doing is not debating, you're just name calling and talking total shit

you know what? i don't even argue with you anymore because there's this whise saying:

don't argue with an idiot... he pulls you down to his level and beats you with experience

 

[Legshot]

okay people so let's finish this off

I have no clue!

Let's stick to TB because TB/RT cannot work even when an expierenced developer tells us so.
Let's stick to 2D because 3D can never have the same atmosphere as 2D even when we have screenshots which look pretty promising.

Thank god that the world is not full of people like you, because then we would still be playing pong and text adventures on our p4 3.0 ghz machines. We would also trust no freakin' person we ever meet and all cary guns with us to shoot the heads off of those who don't share our opinion.

To bad Fo3 will never be released to proove you wrong.

 

[Fromage]

If I may interject, I believe he was referring to how the Valve devs, at that point, were actually still fans themselves. They knew what people wanted, because they were some of the people who wanted it.

I think that's what he meant, anyway.

 

[Roshambo]

okay people so let's finish this off

I have no clue!

Easily the most correct statement in the whole thread.

Let's stick to TB because TB/RT cannot work even when an expierenced developer tells us so.

Just because a developer says it could be done doesn't mean it could be done. It doesn't quite take a full physics degree to know what happens with two means of calculating and handling time representation. It apparently does take some experience with game design to understand how two combat modes in different time basis do not fit because of the inherent properties of both.

Let's stick to 2D because 3D can never have the same atmosphere as 2D even when we have screenshots which look pretty promising.

Straw man, easily. You have easily been blown out of the water by the experience by someone who does know who they are talking about when it comes to prerendering. You've just been floundering ever since. As you're now just posting multiple times in a row, I think you can chill out.

 

[Raymondo2000]

If I may interject, I believe he was referring to how the Valve devs, at that point, were actually still fans themselves. They knew what people wanted, because they were some of the people who wanted it.

I think that's what he meant, anyway.

Bingo!

May I just add nice touch with Legshot's avatar, Rosh.

 

[Legshot]

Straw man, easily. You have easily been blown out of the water by the experience by someone who does know who they are talking about when it comes to prerendering. You've just been floundering ever since. As you're now just posting multiple times in a row, I think you can chill out.

LOL The fact that Fo1+2 are prerendred even helped me in my argumantion. But I didn't know that, that's true.

Feel better now, after assigning me that spammer rank? You know I aint one and you know what the words "power abuse" mean, huh?

Just because a developer says it could be done doesn't mean it could be done. It doesn't quite take a full physics degree to know what happens with two means of calculating and handling time representation. It apparently does take some experience with game design to understand how two combat modes in different time basis do not fit because of the inherent properties of both.

yeah blah blah.. you can always find something against it and why we just shouldn't believe anyone on the topic because you know it all... but you know what? I rather believe someone who's DOING it and SEEING who it turns out than someone who just thinks he knows it...

If I may interject, I believe he was referring to how the Valve devs, at that point, were actually still fans themselves. They knew what people wanted, because they were some of the people who wanted it.

I think that's what he meant, anyway.

That's opinion not a fact. Totally irrelevant to the topic... but thanks for poiting it out.. doesn't matter anyway...

other opinions like the ones the forum pros have get smaked down with a hell of a lot bad attitude..
realy nice place to stay. and Roshambo is trying to make me the bad man here...

@Roshambo
btw. that's not whining it's summing things up.. in fact, I couldn't care less because at the end of the day, do I really matter about your opinion or you about mine? no sir...