The Guns and Ammo Thread

Discussion in 'General Discussion Forum' started by Kalessin, May 4, 2006.

  1. WillisPDunlevey

    WillisPDunlevey Mildly Dipped

    Feb 2, 2010
    Got a deal on former Israeli hi powers via gunbroker.

    A friend of mine and I bought three in total. He fronted the money so he gets first pick when they arrive. I get the remaining two.

    Hopefully they are as good as they look via web page.

    I am going to have Novak sights put on one and HiViz fiber optic sights put on the second one.

    They are pretty standard brownings with plastic grips, external extractor, ambi safety and have been parkerized.
  2. SuAside

    SuAside Testament to the ghoul lifespan

    May 27, 2004
    Be sure to do extensive function & safety checks. Israelis have a lot of "hand me downs", for which parts might not be up to snuff.

    It's also the origin of the "israeli draw". You holster your gun without a round chambered and as you draw you rack the slide. Thus preventing any possible dangerous situation where a round might be chambered but the safety not working as it should.
  3. WillisPDunlevey

    WillisPDunlevey Mildly Dipped

    Feb 2, 2010
    Well... I was planning on taking the magazine safety out as well.. :mrgreen:

    They are going to be checked out by a gunsmith (the one who is putting the new sights on them)

    They look to have been arsenal refinished (or completely rebuilt) at some point.
  4. Airsoftfox

    Airsoftfox First time out of the vault

    Jul 2, 2012
    Just got the papers done on this:
  5. SuAside

    SuAside Testament to the ghoul lifespan

    May 27, 2004
    The mag safety was an army requirement and neither Dieudonné Saive nor John Moses Browning wanted it in there...

    So good riddance.

    Be sure to look into SFS kits. That's useless but it's flippin' cool. :P
    (designed to make it look like they're not cocked & locked, unlike 1911s and standard hi powers)
    Franchi O/U? Are you a skeet/trap shooter?

    Also what made you pick Franchi
  6. Kyuu

    Kyuu Insert Awesome Title Here

    Jul 19, 2007
    So two more trips to the range and no malfunctions at all... until I started feeding Fiocchi ammo through it. Bought two boxes of it for pretty cheap, but while shooting it I had a stovepipe or a failure to feed at least once every mag (10 rounds). Immediately afterward I shot a box of PMC Bronze with zero problems. My previous trip to the range I also shot a box of Ultramax ammo through it with no malfunctions.

    Either Fiocchi ammo is just bad stuff or my FNP is allergic to it.

    On another note, I've been looking at this for my next purchase when I have the cash on hand:

    Anyone have any experience or thoughts on the Keltec KSG? I know I can get a good shotgun for a lot less, but I really do have a thing for bullpups and it doesn't seem like I'll ever be able to get a rifle to scratch that itch, asides from maybe the PS90 (which is really more of a pistol-caliber carbine).
  7. SuAside

    SuAside Testament to the ghoul lifespan

    May 27, 2004
    For Fiocchi, modern production is pretty fucking great ammo. I'd rate it top tier for their "normal ammo". This "non-tox" ammo however is lackluster.

    When dealing with bad ammo it's also always a chance that it was stored improperly, which effects the propellant.
    There's people that love it & people that absolutely hate it. I'd strongly suggest you do your own research and know what you're getting into.
  8. Airsoftfox

    Airsoftfox First time out of the vault

    Jul 2, 2012
    Yes indeed, I am a skeet/trap shooter. I find it to be really rewarding to myself :P

    I picked Franchi because: It wasnt to hard on the wallet, Good quality & Great ergonomics
  9. Phil the Nuka-Cola Dude

    Phil the Nuka-Cola Dude Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Jul 9, 2004
    Could have just been a bad/weak batch, assuming it wasn't that "green" shit.

    Handled one yesterday at a gun show. Wasn't impressed with the build quality (feels like a chunky toy), and they wanted $1200 which is right up there with high-end semi autos. If I was going to spend upwards of a grand on a shotgun, I'd get a Benelli M4. That's crazy expensive for not only a pump, but a Kel Tec.

    Have you seen the new IWI Tavor?

    It's ~$1800, but everyone who has one seems to love it.
  10. Kyuu

    Kyuu Insert Awesome Title Here

    Jul 19, 2007
    That's a nice looking bullpup. Never heard of IWI before. $1800 is a little steep, but I could justify saving up for it if it shoots as nice as it looks. I doubt I'd be able to find one around these parts to check it out in person, unfortunately.

    As for the KSG, the fact that it's going for $1200+ right now does kind of turn me off (I saw one on the wall at one of the gun shops here and they were asking for $2200, which is ludicrous). The MSRP was originally supposed to be like $800. If the build quality really is as meh as you say, definitely hard to justify spending over a grand on it.

    Edit: After reading up on the Tavor... I think I'm in love. That's definitely now on my must-have list.
  11. xxxRedMetalxxx

    xxxRedMetalxxx Moderator, Game Developer Modder

    Jun 4, 2013
    Don't know why I never looked at this thread before. This is useful stuff to me. I am creating a lot of real life firearm sprites in "Red-Tec Resources" in the modding area of the community. Most are created from online imagery and some are created from photographs of my own collection.
    The "Weapon project" is still in it's early stages, but you can see how it is coming along in this thread;
  12. Walpknut

    Walpknut This ghoul has seen it all

    Dec 30, 2010
    Hi, so I am not a gun owner or anything. Also I don't come to preach anything. I am currently planning a comicbook, and I need some references for drawing guns I have some of my own but seeing as you are more into the topic, does Anyone here have a page where I can get visual references for guns in different angles, their inner workings, cappabilities like range, ammo and the like? I just don't want to give the characters Nerf guns that shoot lead.
    Thanks in advance.
  13. SuAside

    SuAside Testament to the ghoul lifespan

    May 27, 2004
    That's a horribly broad request...

    Care to narrow it down a bit? What type of weapons are you looking for?
  14. Walpknut

    Walpknut This ghoul has seen it all

    Dec 30, 2010
    Sorry I just don't know that much about guns, that's why I just don't know what to look for.

    But I am looking for Revolvers, Machine guns (like a uzi maybe?) and shotguns.
  15. Phil the Nuka-Cola Dude

    Phil the Nuka-Cola Dude Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Jul 9, 2004
    IMFDB is going to be your best bet to find the model you want, and then Wikipedia or the manufacturer's website for the technical specs.
  16. WillisPDunlevey

    WillisPDunlevey Mildly Dipped

    Feb 2, 2010
    I agree with Phil.

    If you ask for specific guns that I own, I may provide pix etc.
  17. WillisPDunlevey

    WillisPDunlevey Mildly Dipped

    Feb 2, 2010
    So the three Browning Hi Powers (formerly owned by Israeli police) finally showed up.

    The Good:
    Good barrels/rifling
    No pitting/rust- Refinished (parkerized)
    Accurate group at 25 feet using CCI blazer brass and Remmington ball ammo.
    Price $369, $377, $389 plus $9 shipping.

    Bad (sort of)
    Grips were the standard plastic grips and were well worn ($35 to replace or $17-20 for Hogue grips.
    Sights were off on all three- They shoot about 4" to the right at 25ft (this result was repeated by several people all trying them out)

    Will replace sights with Hi Viz or Novak sights ($150 or so per gun max)

    SO.... 3 good shooters for less than $500 each + they have some interesting historical value... and they are of course the model for the 9mm (Maria) in FO New Vegas.

  18. Phil the Nuka-Cola Dude

    Phil the Nuka-Cola Dude Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Jul 9, 2004
    Needed a pocket gun for "gun free zones" (Private property, not Federal), and couldn't find a 9 that offered adequate reliability while still remaining pocket-sized, so I settled for an LCR 38.

    Not particularly impressed with it, as I'm neither a Ruger nor a wheelgun fan (and for a gun that cost $490 after tax+NICS, the build quality is pretty low); but it's light, disappears in my pocket, and heavy 38SPL +P loads meet FBI minimum standards, so it serves its purpose.

    Show us some pics!
  19. xxxRedMetalxxx

    xxxRedMetalxxx Moderator, Game Developer Modder

    Jun 4, 2013
    Hmmm a little on and off the subject at the same time but;

    When comparing an average impact damage for ammunition calibers should I / can I rely on Ft./Lbs and muzzle energy (joules)? And is this an accurate way to compare the actual damage of a round compared to other calibers?

    I know it is a bit vague, but by average impact damage I mean I need to figure out which caliber is better than which, regardless of ammunition type and weapon it is fired from and manufacturer. So far I have created a list of muzzle energy charts in accordance to multiple ammo sizes. The muzzle energy is calculated from the most standard form of round I can find.

    Should I continue creating this list based on energy readings or is there a better way of figuring out damage apart from finding and testing every known ammunition and weapon in the world?
  20. JohnnyEgo

    JohnnyEgo Mostly Harmless

    Oct 22, 2007
    Wrote this post for another forum and an oft-tread discussion on shotguns. Part II is just the end results, or a bunch of pictures of cardboard with holes in it. Figured it had been a while since I was on NMA, and some folks might like to see a shorty shotgun:

    About once a month, someone on *********net asks what kind of gun they should buy for home protection. Inevitably, the Weight of *********net Wisdom settles on a pump action shotgun. I vehemently disagree. My arguments, short version, are that a shotgun is a.) unweildy, b.) requires the user to perform a lot of mechanical actions under stress, and c.) is not a magic wand of death. I think this makes for a bad combination in nervous / novice hands of your typical (sub)/urbanite user. I am usually ignored.

    A friend of mine followed my recommendation on a first gun, and settled on a Sig 226. He was pretty happy with it for that purpose until some cop friends convinced him of the same old tripe regarding the magic sound of a pump action shotgun. Now he wants one for home defense. So we are going to try a couple out on Thursday afternoon.

    I have a couple shotguns, including a Franchi O/U with which I discovered that I suck at trap, and a Remington 870 Super Mag with a 28" barrel, with which I discovered turkeys are far more inclined to get up early than I am. I have a couple of competition shotguns that are pretty specialized. That leaves me with three shotguns that would fit the bill for the typical 'home defense' scenario.

    They are an FN SLP (original version, not Mark I or II) and an FN SPS, which are derivations on the Winchester Super X2 and 1300 Defender, respectively. Both of them have 18" barrels and are fitted for chokes. The SPS is running a cylinder choke, which provides no restriction. The SLP has an improved cylinder choke, which provides a very modest restriction of the barrel. I also have my trusty 870 Police SBS, which has a 12.5" unchoked barrel.

    FN also makes an SLP Mk I and Mk II, both of which are comp guns, and at 22" and 24" barrel lengths, a little too long to fit the bill. I have a Mk I and think it is an awesome shotgun. The last time I ran 3-gun, they were fairly popular along with the Benelli M4 amongst the high dollar crowd.

    But I digress. Pre-Shoot prep & commentary:

    The 'home defense' shotguns:

    The SPS holds 8+1 rounds, the SLP 7+1 rounds, and the 870 holds 4+1 rounds.

    Home Defense Alternatives:

    Even the shorty shotgun is pretty long. About a Springfield XD Tactical, Glock 19, and Kimber TLE's worth of long.
    Which hold 16+1, 15+1, and 10+1 respectively. None are going to hit as hard as a 12 gauge, but they give you a lot of capacity in a much more compact package.

    What do you want in your hands?

    You have two of them. You can effectively hold and fire any of the above shotguns. Or a handgun and something else.

    Guess which I prefer.

    It is awfully hard to open doors with a shotgun in the ready position. My preference for weapon mounted lights is a topic for another post.

    Back to the topic at hand, though. My shorty 870 is actually very comfortable to fire with low recoil 00 Buck. However, I am going to be shooting slug and standard velocity #00 through it, and don't really feel like letting my wrists take a beating for 15 rounds. Also, since my friend has very little shotgun experience, I'd like to make things a little safer.

    To do that, I will need to make some changes:

    Going to go with a Magpul SGA 870 stock. They are nice because you can adjust the Length of Pull by spacers for a more traditional feel, or you can leave it unspaced, which gives it the LOP of a youth stock.
    In order to keep hands safely behind the barrel, I am going to use a small segment of rail and a Magpul handstop off of one of my ARs.

    This is what I need to do:

    So I take everything apart:

    About this time, Daddy's little helper wanders into the garage.

    Rail segment mounted to the handguard:

    And all back together again:

    The handstop sits too high off the handguard to comfortably serve as a leverage point. If I wanted it to be a levarege point, I'd use a long rail segment and a ladder cover over the unused portion. In this case, it suits my purposes the way it is. I really just want it to keep hands on the grippy part of the guard, and not have them accidentally or excitedly move forward of the barrel.

    Back with it's peers:

    The business end:

    On to the load-out. I had amusing stencil time with 9 IDPA cardboard targets.
    Three per each gun:

    The plan is to put them out at 15 feet or so, and test the patterning of the three shells I use most commonly at 'home defense' distances.
    I am going to try and separate the shot into different segments of the target at least twice per. I don't want to shoot all center of mass, because that will confuse my patterning. My friend will be shooting at these as well. I'll let him shoot first, then I will look for some empty space for the follow-up shots.
    At least that is the plan.

    The rounds:

    I've been shooting a lot of Federal lately, because it is what has been most available in bulk.
    I like the Federal LE132 00 quite a bit. It has the lowest rated muzzle velocity of any of the commonly available shells at 1145 FPS. It is very comfortable to shoot out of my shorty 870, and even softer in the full-sized FN SPS. It is the load of choice for the one time a year my wife begrudgingly agrees to shoot three rounds out of a shotgun, because it is so soft.
    I haven't tried it out of my semi-auto SLP. I am thinking it might be too soft to cycle the action. I've lubed the SLP up and put in the light piston, so we shall see.

    For the SLP, we have the standard velocity Federal XM127 00 loading, also 9 pellets of #00 Buck. It has a muzzle velocity rated at 1325 FPS. Not brutal by any means, but enough oomph to reliably cycle the SLP. This round doesn't have the flight control wad, and is probably about as generically standard a 12 guage round as one is likely to find. It will shoot fine out of all three guns.

    Finally, I have the Federal LE127 RS rifled slug. It is a low recoil slug at 1300 FPS rated muzzle velocity. Slugs need a little extra oomph out the barrel, but it is very soft shooting for a slug. Should work fine in all guns, and is safe for the improved cylinder of the SLP.


    The purpose of all of this is to give my friend some experience with a shotgun and common ammo before he makes purchase. I'll do an after report as time allows me to process pictures. This is by no means scientific, but I'd like to hope it will be illustrative. Thanks for reading such a long post.