The Guns and Ammo Thread

[Gonzalez]

WTF are you talking about. It's not legal to hunt an elephant with this ANYWHERE, because the bullets in this revolver are woefully inadequate for this type of game.
You wouldn't even be allowed to hunt deer with with a .454Casull Unica 6 in most countries...

An exaggeration, aimed at saying how impractical I find high caliber revolvers for self defense or even combat. Perhaps if you are a gun nut and like to go to the range and fire it for the sake of it. If you want armor penetration you'd be beter off with a Five Seven or a 7,62 Tokarev, even my kevlar armor can stop a .44 magnum or .357. If you want stopping power just use expansive rounds in a 9 mm, .380 or even on a .38 revolver, and look no further than a 45 wich has quite enough recoil as it is.

 

[Akratus]

Speaking of impractical handguns. . .



Or maybe I got that video from here? I don't remember.

 

[Gonzalez]

This is what I'm considering for my first owned firearm, to use as a backup and off-duty as concealed carry. .380 caliber (9mm short), 8+1 rounds. The Thunder 9 is a bit beefy to carry concealed on the hip with it's 17+1 9mm double stack mag.

Spoiler

 

[JohnnyEgo]

Let us see if I can do a multiple quote correctly...

WTF are you talking about. It's not legal to hunt an elephant with this ANYWHERE, because the bullets in this revolver are woefully inadequate for this type of game.
You wouldn't even be allowed to hunt deer with with a .454Casull Unica 6 in most countries...

An exaggeration, aimed at saying how impractical I find high caliber revolvers for self defense or even combat. Perhaps if you are a gun nut and like to go to the range and fire it for the sake of it. If you want armor penetration you'd be beter off with a Five Seven or a 7,62 Tokarev, even my kevlar armor can stop a .44 magnum or .357. If you want stopping power just use expansive rounds in a 9 mm, .380 or even on a .38 revolver, and look no further than a 45 wich has quite enough recoil as it is.

I think you are being a bit unkind. This is an Elk:

It lives in my (metaphorical) back yard. Elk don't particularly like dogs. They also don't like it when you get between them and their children. And when it is mating season, some of them might take a big shine to you. These three factors resulted in multiple attacks on the local human community here in the Switzerland of America in this year alone. The damage wasn't pretty. Unlike your typical obese American, one would need to penetrate about 8" of muscle and bone to get into the vitals and convince Bullwinkle to back off. (Technically, Bullwinkle is a moose, but the concept is still valid.)

This is my back-country open carry gun:

My first round is usually snake shot, because I am irrationally afraid of snakes. Followed by 240gr of hard cast lead pushing 1200+ FPS to make sure that nature, red in tooth and claw, takes a step or two back.

National Parks in my country are ruled by Federal law, which usually prohibits open carry on park land, but permits concealed carry with the appropriate permit. Hence, I go for 10mm for penetration characteristics similar to a .41 Magnum, but in a more discrete package:

My point being that one does not have to be a 'gun nut' to appreciate the merits of a big bore.

I am also vaguely curious as to what law enforcement agency/dept/.mil issues the Bersa Thunder 9 as a duty sidearm. I am not aware of any in America, although it would not surprise me for private security. I am very familiar with the Bersa Thunder .380, having sold more than a few in my time, but I have had little exposure to the Thunder 9.

It is very pretty indeed, but people often piss on Kimber for using parts that wear quickly. 10mm Auto being especially brutal, what's their reputation in the US?

They have a mixed reputation because of the whole MIM parts and external extractor debacle of the mid 2000s. They were one of the very first adopters of MIM in non stress-bearing parts, and imported many of them from Spain until they got their own production molding equipment set up. The quality control of the initial runs left much to be desired. Some of the parts had voids and failed under moderate use, in particular those related to the main spring housing and the external extractor. The external extractor wasn't such a great design to begin with, because of compromises necessary to avoid Smith & Wesson's patent. It became such an issue that for a while, Kimber offered to recall their external extractor guns and replace the MIM parts with conventional forgings. Now nearly every manufacturer has gone to MIM for small parts, and the controversy has faded, but the memory lives on. I have a first gen TLE/RL II with an external extractor that was subject to the recall. However, by the time of the recall, I already had several thousand rounds through it under practice and competition, and didn't feel like sending in a gun I knew worked for an uncertain return. So I still have an external extractor Kimber gun, and it's racked up 30,000 rounds or so in the last 13-14 years without any major problems.

The Kimber also has a fully supported chamber, which the Delta does not. Means I should be able to use 10mm loaded to Norma specs without the 'Delta Bulge' destroying my brass, or having to resort to a .40 S&W based loading.

I have been having some teething pains with the Delta's sights, and I'd also want to get the frame high undercut like my Wiley Clapp gun, but Colt Custom has an 11 month backlog at the moment, and I haven't wanted to be apart from it for that long. I'm thinking the Kimber may fill the hole in my heart while it heads back to the factory for some love. I've decided to let fate solve it for me by seeing if the Kimber is still on the shelf come Friday.

 

[Gonzalez]

I am also vaguely curious as to what law enforcement agency/dept/.mil issues the Bersa Thunder 9 as a duty sidearm.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentine_Federal_Police

I live in a city, the largest wild animals I've seen here are stray dogs and really big rats. However these are the least of your problems, the biggest one usually shoots back, and a large caliber revolver would be counterproductive.

Also, if you really want over the top firepower then might as well grab a shotgun rather than a large claiber handgun, it will be far easier to control and offer superior stopping power. And if you want concealed carry, sometimes I complain the Thunder 9 is a bit beefy and uncomfortable, and heavy, I don't want to imagine what a .44 magnum is like, specially in summer when you don't have a coat or something to hide it under. Not that it would be impossible, some manage to hide a .357 magnum under a T-shirt, jut uncomfortable. Then again this is my oppinion and point of view, in practical terms, living in my current environment.

A 10mm/.40 cal would be more practical tho.

 

[SuAside]

An exaggeration, aimed at saying how impractical I find high caliber revolvers for self defense or even combat. Perhaps if you are a gun nut and like to go to the range and fire it for the sake of it.

The most common Mateba Unica 6 is .357Mag. It also comes with a set of springs that allow you to shoot .38Special as well.
It's not really a handcannon at all. You don't find that many Unica 6 that are .44Mag or .454 Casull.

If you want stopping power just use expansive rounds in a 9 mm, .380 or even on a .38 revolver, and look no further than a 45 wich has quite enough recoil as it is.

I would never suggest a .380 or .38Spl as a duty carry gun. It might be fine as an offduty carry piece, maybe. But that's where it stops for me.
And if you think .45ACP is heavy recoiling, well, not much can be said, I guess.

I think you are being a bit unkind.

I'm talking about legality, not potential though. There's poachers that successfully hunt deer with a .22LR afterall.
But clearly elephants are outside the realm of possibilities.

 

[JohnnyEgo]

An exaggeration, aimed at saying how impractical I find high caliber revolvers for self defense or even combat. Perhaps if you are a gun nut and like to go to the range and fire it for the sake of it.

The most common Mateba Unica 6 is .357Mag. It also comes with a set of springs that allow you to shoot .38Special as well.
It's not really a handcannon at all. You don't find that many Unica 6 that are .44Mag or .454 Casull.

If you want stopping power just use expansive rounds in a 9 mm, .380 or even on a .38 revolver, and look no further than a 45 wich has quite enough recoil as it is.

I would never suggest a .380 or .38Spl as a duty carry gun. It might be fine as an offduty carry piece, maybe. But that's where it stops for me.
And if you think .45ACP is heavy recoiling, well, not much can be said, I guess.

I think you are being a bit unkind.

I'm talking about legality, not potential though. There's poachers that successfully hunt deer with a .22LR afterall.
But clearly elephants are outside the realm of possibilities.

The 'unkind' remark was target at Gonzalez characterization of .44 Mag as a hand cannon for gun nuts. Probably more of a cultural difference than anything else. I do chuckle a little when anyone describes a .45 as a recoil monster. My daughter has been shooting them since she was eight, and even with poor form, recoil has never been an issue.

 

[Gonzalez]

.45 is not a recoill monster, but as large as I would ever want to get and no more. People think they need heavier rounds, .38 has been a reliable service caliber until someone came up against fanatical drugged natives that kept figthing even after being mortally wounded, and then realized that against those targets a .45 was much more effective. Now if a .45 is effective against dugged fanatics who don't feel pain and are berzerked with chems, than look no further than a .45, just like I said before.

Also, not everyone is as well versed with firearms as people who has been training since kids, for them a .45 is harder to control and more difficult to learn than say, a 9mm. .380 is perfect for self deffense, for people who just want to have it for that, and want to be accurate without a lot of training. Also it's far more concealable and comfortable to carry. Nowdays most militaries in the world look no further than a 9mm for a combat handgun, .45 being used mostly by special forces, who are well versed with them and can really use the extra "punch", and you'll never see them using a .44 or a .357. If special forces don't believe they need anything larger than a .45, what makes you feel you do?

If you really want extra stopping power I would recomend a .40/10mm, maybe a Glock 22, I really doubt you'll find yourself in a situation where you'll need more than that. Unless again you are trying to stop something larger than a human.

 

[JohnnyEgo]

In fairness, I don't know how your military works, but I know a fair amount about how mine does, having served in it and then selling small arms and accessories to it's various departments and branches for a number of years. Your analogy fails our own model pretty much completely. Once you get to a high enough tier in our myriad of special forces designators, you usually have a great deal of latitude for selection of weapons to fulfill a mission. Our government has used revolvers for many years in roles ranging from combat to military policing. .357 used to be the issue weapon of choice for aviators. A year or two back, it was trendy for our top-tier folks to cut down an M79 Grenade Launcher to use as a door knocker. So by extension of your logic, anything short of 40mm is 'special forces approved'. I probably only need one M576 grenade to defend myself pretty handily, but the collateral damage isn't to my liking.

Our weapons purchasing functions take into account a number of constraints, including serving to the middle of the demographic and politics. Among other things, we are mostly bound to FMJ as the result of the Geneva Convention, which pretty much everyone agrees is a lousy personal defense round with a lot of penetration constraints. Likewise, we tend to favor higher capacity, which limits the use of revolvers in our contemporary armed services. While 'special forces' may encounter all sorts of hostiles that can be effectively dealt with by a .45 round, they probably don't face a lot of cougars (the cat, not the sexy kind), moose, or other of God's little creatures with very different physiologies.

My big gripe about .380 is that I think it is underpowered, and the guns most commonly chambered in it tend to be small and fiddly. Gives me pause regarding both stopping power and reliability when I need them. Apparently, most of the LE/MIL agencies in my country tend to agree with me, which is why they are relegated to back-up firearms at the best.

I hope this does not come across as me disrespecting your position. I merely disagree with you.

 

[Deleted member 53669]

Something like that.


Also, Hollow-points in anything under 1200 FPS is pretty much wasting money. The only ammunition I've seen HP work well in a handgun caliber is 9mm 9pble 115 grain Federal and Federal HST 230 grain 45. Penetration and shot-placement is what kills.

This isn't counting revolver loads. Revolvers are fun because you can load all sorts of crazy stuff inside the bore.

Hollow-points will prevent over-penetration however, so take that into account.


The 380 is an excellent caliber. Actually, my old Ruger 380 was one of the easiest to shoot guns I've ever fired. If you can put a .380 on a vital area you would not notice a difference at all between that and other calibers under hot .357 magnums or .357 Sigs.


Also, .22 lr follows that same methodology.



Also, handguns suck. Rifle first, handgun second.

So have a handgun that shoots straight fast and has a high capacity. The rest is smoke and mirrors or personal preference for enjoyment and recreation.

 

[Gonzalez]

What this guy is basically saying is that I should stick to my issued Thunder 9. It's 9mm, has high capacity and is reliable. By the way I've been shooting my sidearm for 3 years now, an average of 200 rounds a year and I never had a single jam or missfire, so I guess that accounts as reliable.

 

[Deleted member 53669]

Pretty much.


Exploring the world of firearms is fun and exciting, but there is a reason that NATO uses a 9mm, and that most agencies use high capacity 9mms.



Also, the 9mm is such a remarkable round that gets underestimated so much. Its shape and size has a perfect ballistic coefficient for a round its size and weight, and has a versatility that allows it to be used effectively in carbines and subguns.

Of course there are rounds like the 5.7, however for what a regular person can afford, the availability, and the amount of different types of ammunition made, its pretty much the best option available.


I would only go with a .45 if you want play risk, the same as I would go with a revolver if you want to risk it.

If you think a revolver is a better option than an automatic, you need to train with your automatic bro. Six shots when your scared shitless and fucking with a speedloader takes a lot more skill than reloading a magazine.


Sure, a .45 is a good cartridge... But what about weight? You want to carry around a .45 all day? If you can do it. You want to sacrifice 5-10 extra rounds for the highly unlikely possibility that the .45 will give a different effect over a 9mm? Alright. Same with a revolver.


10mm? Well unless you are hunting bear you aren't adding much to the equation. Harder to control, harder to train with, more expensive.

.40? Well you are at a half-way between a .45 and a 9mm with none of the benefits of either. Instead of a small faster bullet that is easier to control, or a bigger and heavy bullet that is slower and has moderate recoil, you have a kinda bigger bullet going just a little bit faster with way more recoil than both. I don't see any benefits.

.357? Get a Smith and Wesson 686. 7 shots. Best you're going to get with a carry revolver. Small snub .357s are hard to shoot, an when i mean hard, I mean nearly impossible for someone who doesn't shoot much. Same with snub .38s.

.44? Keep it in your car in case the cartels are after you and you need to take out an engine block, or load the sucker with some JHP and get really good son. Otherwise you will be dead, or being sued by family members for excessive force and demonized for killing someone with a huge revolver.

.380's don't get enough credit. They can fit in your pocket, and give you basically a slightly slower 9mm. I would use FMJ's for a .380 however, for the JHP loads don't seem to be working as of 2015.

.22lr? Probably a lot more effective than it has been given credit, but rim-fires suck in reliability. If a .22 was a center-fire cartridge it would be carried by everyone.


This is only regarding handgun calibers obviously. Rifle calibers vary a whole great deal more than handgun ammunition does, and have a lot more versatility and methodology of use than handgun calibers do. A handgun is designed to be a back-up, self defense tool that can be carried on the body. That POU limits the capabilities that you can employ with a sidearm.

 

[SuAside]

My daughter has been shooting them since she was eight, and even with poor form, recoil has never been an issue.

You let your kids shoot in this posture & stance? FOR SHAME, Johnny! For shame!

 

[MutantScalper]

.45 is not a recoill monster, but as large as I would ever want to get and no more. People think they need heavier rounds, .38 has been a reliable service caliber until someone came up against fanatical drugged natives that kept figthing even after being mortally wounded, and then realized that against those targets a .45 was much more effective. Now if a .45 is effective against dugged fanatics who don't feel pain and are berzerked with chems, than look no further than a .45, just like I said before.

Slightly OT but, "natives"? You mean native American Indian tribe members? Are there those in Argentina?

Also, how do you feel about the situation in Brazil and in some other South American nations in terms of the security situation? Seems many have a lot of violent crime. I keep seeing vids on this site (Liveleak) of Brazilian cops fighting crime, and also of off-duty Brazilian cops sometimes basically executing robbers, shoplifters, who often were armed though. Just seems a bit, phew, out of control. I don't think it's quite that bad of a situation in Argentina?

 

[Gonzalez]

By the way, any tips for weapon maintenance? In the Army we used to clean everything with just WD-40, only occasionaly using a specified lubricant, not first brand either. How often would you disarm and clean the firing pin?

I don't think it's quite that bad of a situation in Argentina?

A bit off topic, yeah. I don't know about Brazil, but here we do everything propper like, otherwise the criminals go free because procedures weren't followed and policemen loose their jobs or go to jail, not to mention facing civilian lawsuits.

The "natives" I was referring to were mentioned in a documentary in The History Channel (back before it turned into a reality show channel) and I believe US forces were involved.

 

[Deleted member 53669]

To clean stuff, Ballistol, or one of many other gun lubricants.

I use to clean with alcohol and cotton balls, but I don't recommend that. Use WD-40 or Ballistol.

Also, I would clean and disarm the firing pin after about every 5,000 rounds depending on the firearm.

If it's an AR-15/M-4/M-16 Gas impingement system, I would clean the entire gun except the barrel after about every 1,000 rounds, and clean the bolt-carrier group every single time after you use it.







*Natives*


Those Natives were the Moro Tribesman of the Philippines.


Those Thompson_LeGarde tests in the early 1900's, people forget, used ammunition that had much less powder, and therefore, much less velocity than modern ammunition.

 

[TorontoReign]

We always used CLP in the Army...

 

[MutantScalper]

The ARX-160 is "in the lead" for the Finns, no doubt because it would be produced at Sako.

Yep. In case someone might be interested, Finnish military decided to buy between 300 and 500 FN SCARs for the special forces. FN SCAR is NATO - compliant so that might be reason they decide to go with that one.

Edit. This isn't the 'big deal', just a smaller amount for the special forces.

 

[JohnnyEgo]

My daughter has been shooting them since she was eight, and even with poor form, recoil has never been an issue.

You let your kids shoot in this posture & stance? FOR SHAME, Johnny! For shame!

I took a relatively bohemian attitude with my own children. As long as my daughter could acquit herself safely and seemed to be enjoying herself, I really let her do what was comfortable when she was young. As she got older and (slightly) more interested, we focused on the fundamentals. At 17 (hard to believe) she does pretty well now. Of course, I always think of her as my little girl who needed the stool to shoot over the range table. My son hasn't started yet, and probably won't for another year or two. He is not remotely close to mature enough to pay attention for more than a few seconds.

**

So the 10mm was in stock and I bought it. I couldn't help myself, so I shot 50 rounds through it with nothing but the assembly lube. It really fought the first round in the magazine about half a dozen times, and it didn't consistently lock back on an empty magazine. However, for an unbroken-in gun right out of the box, it fired like a champ. I am slightly embarrassed to say I shot it far better than my Delta, which I've had for nearly a year now. I attribute that mostly to the sights and the high cut grip that is in keeping with the rest of my 1911s. Photographs don't do the finish justice. It is a strikingly beautiful pistol. If one could quantify the color of 'shadow', that is it's true appearance. However, any attempt to modify contrast or white balance also takes the nuance right out of the finish.

I've also got a whole saga surrounding my 87T that I sent off to be threaded, but that will have to wait for another day, as I am pretty sleepy right now.

 

[BigBoss]

Holy shit, I didn't know 10mm pistols were real. That's fuckin' awesome. I'm now not sure what my favorite handgun caliber-type is, until I try the 10mm. I'm pretty sure it will stay .44 though. In all of my life, all the gun's I've fired didn't work or feel as well as the .44. It's just a great handgun, all around. I miss my .44 cartridge version of the Desert Eagle. I traded a guy I used to work with an old Kalashnikov I bought in a pawn shop for his Desert Eagle, best trade I'd ever made in my life. What the hell was I going to do with a Kalashnikov anyways. What am I preparing for, Red Dawn? Plus, the K I got in the pawn shop was 674 bucks. The Desert Eagle he traded me was worth about three-fifty to four hundred bucks more, according to the internet after I looked it up when I traded for it. The guy wanted my K though (I had a lot of custom work done to it. After everything I did on it, including the 674 bucks I spent on it I had spent about another five hundred bucks in custom work. Since he didn't have any cash to go buy one of his own, he just traded me. Most people's Desert Eagles are from the Israel Weapon Industry or whatever, but the one I had was made by Magnum (it's called Magnum Research or something like that). I was going to get a 1911 after I pawned by DE, but I'm going to hold off on buying another firearm for a good while.

Also, for the last picture above me, that's a Beretta right? I never liked the feel of those. Everytime I had ever bought or considered buying a 9mm (I know that's a 10 now. I didn't think they existed) I always went for Smith & Wesson. They always exceeded all my expectations, wonderful firearms all the way around.