.44 is a 10mm caliber, isn't it?
The Guns and Ammo Thread
- Thread starter Kalessin
- Start date
D
Deleted member 53669
Guest
Close. Close enough to be so. 10mm is a slightly smaller caliber than a .44, and the bullet is shorter and lighter.
Difference is length.
.44 Special is a light load shorter than a .44 Magnum.
.44 Magnum is a huge load behind a .44 special bullet.
10mm is under .44 Magnum in a case shorter than both.
When you say .44, gun people don't know if you are talking about .44 Special or .44 Magnum.
In revolver calibers, you can put a .38 Special in a .357 magnum, since they are the same caliber. You cannot put a .357 in a .38 handgun for the case is too long, and most .38's aren't built to withstand the pressure of a .357.
The same works with .44 magnum and .44 special. If you buy either revolver in the magnum caliber, you get 2 for the price of one.
Difference is length.
.44 Special is a light load shorter than a .44 Magnum.
.44 Magnum is a huge load behind a .44 special bullet.
10mm is under .44 Magnum in a case shorter than both.
When you say .44, gun people don't know if you are talking about .44 Special or .44 Magnum.
In revolver calibers, you can put a .38 Special in a .357 magnum, since they are the same caliber. You cannot put a .357 in a .38 handgun for the case is too long, and most .38's aren't built to withstand the pressure of a .357.
The same works with .44 magnum and .44 special. If you buy either revolver in the magnum caliber, you get 2 for the price of one.
Last edited by a moderator:
10mm is the precursor to .40 S&W. Same bullet diameter (10mm/.40in), the 10mm just has a longer casing. 10mm came first, but the early semi autos were prone to frame damage and some shooters complained about the recoil characteristics. Smith & Wesson then shortened the casing and remarketed the round as the .40 S&W to distance it from the 10mm. It took off amongst the law enforcement crowd, as it was marketed as having better barrier penetration than the 9mm and higher capacity than the .45 ACP.
The closest caliber in terms of size and ballistics to 10mm is the .41 Magnum.
**
So the 87T...
There aren't a whole lot of domestic companies willing to take on the threading of these guns. The barrel is press fit into the slide, and does not have the diameter to be threaded in and of itself. It has to be pressed out of the slide, and the slide has to be milled to accommodate the increased diameter of the threaded extension. There's really only one company in the US that markets the service as their specialty. I called the guy up, and he said he could thread it and get it back to me in two weeks.
After about the four month mark, my patience expired. We played this escalating game of threats and avoidance, starting out with polite voice-mails and ending in certified threats to involve the Postal AG and the civil courts. Eventually, I gave up and wrote it off for a loss. Then last November, a year and some change after I had sent it off, my slide arbitrarily shows up in the mail. No explanation, no note, no refund. The mill work and threading were beautifully executed. I couldn't decide between being irritated over the whole ordeal or ecstatic at the work.
I strapped my Outback II on it and took it to the range. The thread work resulted in the sights being high at 5 yards, and getting higher further out. Grouping was acceptable, but the point shift was more than the range of adjustment on the rear sights. More than any of my other threaded .22lr hosts, the Beretta with silencer just sent the rounds zipping through the barrel at a much higher velocity. I took the can off, and the rounds returned to point of aim, all the way out to 16 yards. So it's not the thread job or the gun, just an unexpected tolerance stacking between the silencer and the gun.
Decided I didn't want to swap front sight posts, as I would have to dedicate the gun to being a silencer host. So I grit my teeth and stuck a Burris Fast Fire 3 on it. The Fast Fire is sighted in for the silencer, and when I want to shoot iron sights, I take it off. This is the most back and forth I've ever had with a silenced gun, and if I didn't love the 87T so much, I would have given up on it a while ago.
The closest caliber in terms of size and ballistics to 10mm is the .41 Magnum.
**
So the 87T...
There aren't a whole lot of domestic companies willing to take on the threading of these guns. The barrel is press fit into the slide, and does not have the diameter to be threaded in and of itself. It has to be pressed out of the slide, and the slide has to be milled to accommodate the increased diameter of the threaded extension. There's really only one company in the US that markets the service as their specialty. I called the guy up, and he said he could thread it and get it back to me in two weeks.
After about the four month mark, my patience expired. We played this escalating game of threats and avoidance, starting out with polite voice-mails and ending in certified threats to involve the Postal AG and the civil courts. Eventually, I gave up and wrote it off for a loss. Then last November, a year and some change after I had sent it off, my slide arbitrarily shows up in the mail. No explanation, no note, no refund. The mill work and threading were beautifully executed. I couldn't decide between being irritated over the whole ordeal or ecstatic at the work.
I strapped my Outback II on it and took it to the range. The thread work resulted in the sights being high at 5 yards, and getting higher further out. Grouping was acceptable, but the point shift was more than the range of adjustment on the rear sights. More than any of my other threaded .22lr hosts, the Beretta with silencer just sent the rounds zipping through the barrel at a much higher velocity. I took the can off, and the rounds returned to point of aim, all the way out to 16 yards. So it's not the thread job or the gun, just an unexpected tolerance stacking between the silencer and the gun.
Decided I didn't want to swap front sight posts, as I would have to dedicate the gun to being a silencer host. So I grit my teeth and stuck a Burris Fast Fire 3 on it. The Fast Fire is sighted in for the silencer, and when I want to shoot iron sights, I take it off. This is the most back and forth I've ever had with a silenced gun, and if I didn't love the 87T so much, I would have given up on it a while ago.
Akratus
Bleep bloop.
Damn. That is one fucking sexy gun.
Very nice, Johnny.
It can trap moisture if used on a wet or damp gun (causing corrosion). It's also not very good at dissolving any crud that might be in the gun.
You could use something like CLP, but if you want to get the maximum out of your cleaning, use a bore cleaner, a general purpose lube and a grease (on the guiderails).
That said, when I say bore cleaner, I mean something like Shooter's Choice standard bore cleaner, not heavy duty copper/lead dissolvers. You shouldn't use those frequently because they will eventually affect your bore if you use them too often.
Cleaning the firing pin & firing pin channel depends entirely on the gun, the ammo you're shooting and the environment you're using it in.
.45ACP was accepted as the US Army sidearm caliber after the .38 Long Colt proved to be ineffective as stopping drugged out Philippinos in short range ambushes during the 1899–1902 Philippine–American War. Guerilla fighters would get hopped up on drugs and ambush americans in close quarters with melee weapons.
WD40 is pretty shit as far as cleaning and lubrication in firearms goes.
It can trap moisture if used on a wet or damp gun (causing corrosion). It's also not very good at dissolving any crud that might be in the gun.
You could use something like CLP, but if you want to get the maximum out of your cleaning, use a bore cleaner, a general purpose lube and a grease (on the guiderails).
That said, when I say bore cleaner, I mean something like Shooter's Choice standard bore cleaner, not heavy duty copper/lead dissolvers. You shouldn't use those frequently because they will eventually affect your bore if you use them too often.
Cleaning the firing pin & firing pin channel depends entirely on the gun, the ammo you're shooting and the environment you're using it in.
Ballistol is a jack of all trades master of none. It's an interesting oil, and probably great to have around if you only can have one oil on hand to use, but if you're simply at home, there's no reason not to have a distinct bore cleaner and a general purpose lube. Or even better, a bore cleaner, a general purpose lube and a grease.
There's a reason why they nicknamed .40S&W as .40Short&Weak. It just doesn't compare to a proper load of 10mm Auto. But I can totally understand why the FBI would be reluctant to issue 10mm Auto to all their personnel, including women and men not very interested in extensive firearms training.
Regardless, I'm not a fan of .40S&W. The classic 9x19mm & .45ACP work just fine.
As for the Beretta 87 Target, some of my frustrations on the thing are:
1) Front serrations but no rear serrations means it's a bit annoying to cock with the hammer down if you want to cock it like you would most pistols.
2) Barrel weight has to come off for cleaning and requires allen wrenches.
3) If you're used to riding the safety on a 1911 or X-Five, you might drag your thumb against the 87T's slide, causing it not to lock back or even FTF/FTE.
As for red dots on the 87T... For me, it distracts me too much. I get too triggerhappy with it, forgetting the fundamentals. This means I make a lot more trigger errors etc than I do with irons. Due to this, I've not mounted a red dot on it in ages. Maybe I should give it another try.
I know what you mean. I started out on HKs and 1911s. When I switched my primary comp gun from the HK Expert to the Sig 226, I'd have the slide fail to lock back on an empty mag about 50% of the time. Happened to me three times in one competition. I thought it was the mag followers at first, but I kept having the same issues regardless of magazines or ammo. Finally realized it was my grip; my tendency to hold high with thumb on safety and forefinger of my support hand along the slide. I was bumping the slide stop on the Sig without realizing it. Made a conscious effort to modify my grip slightly, and the problem went away. Then switched to the X-5 as a comp gun, and the problem went away completely. Still happens to me at the range from time to time if I transition from my other guns to my regular 226 and I'm not thinking about it.
I've also hated every .40 S&W gun I've owned. I'm down to one, a Glock 34, and I swapped out the barrel with a 9mm conversion for my own use.
I wasn't wild about spending the money on the red dot, but I was already bottoming out on the irons, so there was no other way short of snapping in the shortest front sight blade and/or filing to get it sighted in with the can. I figure most of my guest shooters will appreciate the novelty if nothing else.
I've also hated every .40 S&W gun I've owned. I'm down to one, a Glock 34, and I swapped out the barrel with a 9mm conversion for my own use.
I wasn't wild about spending the money on the red dot, but I was already bottoming out on the irons, so there was no other way short of snapping in the shortest front sight blade and/or filing to get it sighted in with the can. I figure most of my guest shooters will appreciate the novelty if nothing else.
Shortest front sight? If you're shooting high, you'd need a taller front sight and a completely lowered rear sight, wouldn't you? Not a shorter blade. I'm going to guess that's just a typo on your part.
The front blade does come out easily though, so if you can find a replacement, you can probably rig something up to fix your sighting problem.
Personally, I've grown quite fond of shooting irons on the 87T.
I'm also considering machining some serrations into the rear of the slide, to allow easier cocking with the hammer down. But then again, you only need it the first time you cock it. All other times you'll just be releasing the slide lock. But it's conceptually flawed to only serrate the front, so it irks me to no end.
As for the increased velocity in the gun, remember that the standard spring (in europe at least) is meant only for standard velocity ammo. If the can increases pressure by that much, the gun might beat itself a bit hard (akin to shooting higher velocity). You might want to check if you can find a tougher recoil spring to prevent slide damage or cracks.
Yep, got it backwards. F.O.R.S. (Front opposite, rear same).
The ergonomics are certainly weird with the middle mounted cocking serrations.
In related news, I got two pieces of gear that are only tangentially firearm related at the moment. I'll share one of them now. Tripods are becoming the next big thing here with the distance shooting set. They let you shoot at a standing position with support, and are much more accommodating of uneven ground. Many folks are using the Manfroto pistol grip ball-head on the medium end, and cheaper video oriented tripods like the Sunpak on the low end. I don't know that I'd want to trust my very expensive Mk 11 Mod 0 to a Sunpak system. I already have Manfroto tripod legs, but I use an Arca-Swiss based ball-head from Really Right Stuff. It is colloquially known as the 'Mother of all Ball-Heads', and I do not doubt that it could take the weight of my heavier guns. However, nobody really makes an Arca-Swiss style Picatinny adapter, at least that I could find, so I decided to make my own. Combined an RRS Plate with a Vortex Picatinny adapter that was threaded 10-24 like most standard camera mounts. So here everything is all mounted up:
It's the middle of winter here, and my garage floor is very dirty, because the wife does not want to park outside in sub-zero weather. Whiner.
Adjusted to my standing eye level. It's pretty comfortable.
I can also go to seated height. Allows me to create a semi-bench experience in the field with a folding chair. It's probably equally as heavy as my folding table, but takes up less space and is easier to trek with.
I can get down into a prone firing position, and looks to the contrary, the magazine clears the floor. As of yet, however, I don't see the appeal for prone. I've become reasonably decent at loading my bipod, and find it to be more stable than anything I could achieve with the tripod.
Assuming I like it in actual use. I see myself using this combo most often in the grasslands during summer and fall, where the various flora are particularly spikey and I don't want to have to debur myself or my shooting mat afterwards.
The ergonomics are certainly weird with the middle mounted cocking serrations.
In related news, I got two pieces of gear that are only tangentially firearm related at the moment. I'll share one of them now. Tripods are becoming the next big thing here with the distance shooting set. They let you shoot at a standing position with support, and are much more accommodating of uneven ground. Many folks are using the Manfroto pistol grip ball-head on the medium end, and cheaper video oriented tripods like the Sunpak on the low end. I don't know that I'd want to trust my very expensive Mk 11 Mod 0 to a Sunpak system. I already have Manfroto tripod legs, but I use an Arca-Swiss based ball-head from Really Right Stuff. It is colloquially known as the 'Mother of all Ball-Heads', and I do not doubt that it could take the weight of my heavier guns. However, nobody really makes an Arca-Swiss style Picatinny adapter, at least that I could find, so I decided to make my own. Combined an RRS Plate with a Vortex Picatinny adapter that was threaded 10-24 like most standard camera mounts. So here everything is all mounted up:
It's the middle of winter here, and my garage floor is very dirty, because the wife does not want to park outside in sub-zero weather. Whiner.
Adjusted to my standing eye level. It's pretty comfortable.
I can also go to seated height. Allows me to create a semi-bench experience in the field with a folding chair. It's probably equally as heavy as my folding table, but takes up less space and is easier to trek with.
I can get down into a prone firing position, and looks to the contrary, the magazine clears the floor. As of yet, however, I don't see the appeal for prone. I've become reasonably decent at loading my bipod, and find it to be more stable than anything I could achieve with the tripod.
Assuming I like it in actual use. I see myself using this combo most often in the grasslands during summer and fall, where the various flora are particularly spikey and I don't want to have to debur myself or my shooting mat afterwards.
D
Deleted member 53669
Guest
That is one hell of a tripod.
Looks like it costs more than the price of a functional WASR.
Looks like it costs more than the price of a functional WASR.
That makes your SR25 look like a tiny toy.
T
TorontoReign
Guest
This thread gives me wood.
D
Deleted member 53669
Guest
Carnik Con.
What else can I say?
Last edited by a moderator:
I've been coming to terms lately with the fact that my 20s are a fair ways behind me. The signs are manifesting in a variety of ways, including my first little taste of arthritis, and some shakiness where I was rock-steady. The vision is a little dimmer and a little fuzzier.
I was reminded of all these facts on my trip to the range today. Decided I'd bring the 1911s and do an assortment of speed drills, something I was pretty good at a decade ago. Now, time and lack of practice are starting to show. I hear a lot of people talk a lot about their abilities, but I don't often see the indicators of real live performance in the range or at the competition. Figured I'd post my stuff here for the good and the bad of it, because it is what I really do.
First, one should go to the range with the proper targets. He looks menacing enough. It's the cold, dead glint in his shifty eyes:
Going to need some guns:
I mostly shoot B24s, which are reduced center-mass targets designed to be shot at 50 feet. For rapid fire drills on the .45s, I was much closer in, at 10 yards, or about 30 feet away. I shot 32 rounds of .45 ACP at each target (4 eight round mags). I shot as fast as I could while still making each an aimed shot, and reloaded as quickly as I could as well.
This is one of the guns I carry most often, a Kimber TLE-RL II. Decisive bias to the left, plus a flyer in the 8 ring. Once upon a time, that mass would all be in the 10 ring. This was some of my better shooting today. This was also my fastest time, at 101.3 seconds. My reload speeds have been getting sloppy.
This is my Colt Wiley Clapp. I bought it with the intent to be a carry gun, but I suck at shooting it. This is frustrating, because I consider this gun one of the best Colt has to offer, but I am not living up to it. On the plus side, I put my shots where they belonged for the most part. On the minus side, I really started vertically stringing on the last magazine. I was also pretty slow with this gun, clocking in at 132 seconds and some change.
My Sig Tac Ops silencer host. I normally shoot with gloves, but I didn't today in order to be consistent. The Sig was tearing it up, and on pace to destroy the TLE-RL for both grouping and speed, until the last mag. Then the slide started catching some of my thumb between the safety. Didn't hurt me or stop the gun, but it really threw me off.
Kimber KGM Custom II Classic Target. The all black target sight is not my friend, but it held it's own with only three fliers.
At this point, I pushed the target out a couple more yards to try out my 10mms. And I got my biggest disappointment of the day by far.
18 rounds of failure until I quit the Delta Elite. This gun drives me nuts. It has never shot to my natural point of aim, and is the only one of my 1911s with these style sights. If I go really slow and try to remember my point of aim issues, I can keep things in a reasonable approximation of grouping. But today was about speed as well as accuracy, so I went at my natural rapid pace. And in return, I got total garbage results. Almost quit shooting out of dispair.
Fortunately, I had another 10mm with me. My Kimber Eclipse Custom II. This was my second outing with it. Shoots to my natural point of aim.
My timing sucked, because I kept having first-round feed issues when I would do a mag change. Mostly I could tap the slide to fully seat the round, but it still resulted in some slowness. I've only got 100 rounds on her now, and there could be a million reasons for first-round feed problems. So rather than tinker, I've decided to see how she wears over the next 400 rounds or so. If the feed problems go away, this may end up in my carry rotation. If not, it will join the Delta as a frustrating range queen.
So that is how I spent my hour of range time today. I'm not entirely unhappy, so much as wistful for the days when my back and the top of my hand didn't hurt so much after an hour of shooting. I'm not the shooter I was a decade ago, but considering how little practice I get these days, I still feel reasonably comfortable with my skill level. And I had a good time, even with the frustrations. And it is how I really shoot, so I may as well get comfortable with it.
And that shifty guy from earlier?
I used my silenced guns on him and his twin just for fun.
My Sig continues to surprise me. On it's own, it is decent but not spectacular. However, out of all my .45 ACP silencer hosts, this combination consistently outperforms every other one. This is just a really good combination.
I was reminded of all these facts on my trip to the range today. Decided I'd bring the 1911s and do an assortment of speed drills, something I was pretty good at a decade ago. Now, time and lack of practice are starting to show. I hear a lot of people talk a lot about their abilities, but I don't often see the indicators of real live performance in the range or at the competition. Figured I'd post my stuff here for the good and the bad of it, because it is what I really do.
First, one should go to the range with the proper targets. He looks menacing enough. It's the cold, dead glint in his shifty eyes:
Going to need some guns:
I mostly shoot B24s, which are reduced center-mass targets designed to be shot at 50 feet. For rapid fire drills on the .45s, I was much closer in, at 10 yards, or about 30 feet away. I shot 32 rounds of .45 ACP at each target (4 eight round mags). I shot as fast as I could while still making each an aimed shot, and reloaded as quickly as I could as well.
This is one of the guns I carry most often, a Kimber TLE-RL II. Decisive bias to the left, plus a flyer in the 8 ring. Once upon a time, that mass would all be in the 10 ring. This was some of my better shooting today. This was also my fastest time, at 101.3 seconds. My reload speeds have been getting sloppy.
This is my Colt Wiley Clapp. I bought it with the intent to be a carry gun, but I suck at shooting it. This is frustrating, because I consider this gun one of the best Colt has to offer, but I am not living up to it. On the plus side, I put my shots where they belonged for the most part. On the minus side, I really started vertically stringing on the last magazine. I was also pretty slow with this gun, clocking in at 132 seconds and some change.
My Sig Tac Ops silencer host. I normally shoot with gloves, but I didn't today in order to be consistent. The Sig was tearing it up, and on pace to destroy the TLE-RL for both grouping and speed, until the last mag. Then the slide started catching some of my thumb between the safety. Didn't hurt me or stop the gun, but it really threw me off.
Kimber KGM Custom II Classic Target. The all black target sight is not my friend, but it held it's own with only three fliers.
At this point, I pushed the target out a couple more yards to try out my 10mms. And I got my biggest disappointment of the day by far.
18 rounds of failure until I quit the Delta Elite. This gun drives me nuts. It has never shot to my natural point of aim, and is the only one of my 1911s with these style sights. If I go really slow and try to remember my point of aim issues, I can keep things in a reasonable approximation of grouping. But today was about speed as well as accuracy, so I went at my natural rapid pace. And in return, I got total garbage results. Almost quit shooting out of dispair.
Fortunately, I had another 10mm with me. My Kimber Eclipse Custom II. This was my second outing with it. Shoots to my natural point of aim.
My timing sucked, because I kept having first-round feed issues when I would do a mag change. Mostly I could tap the slide to fully seat the round, but it still resulted in some slowness. I've only got 100 rounds on her now, and there could be a million reasons for first-round feed problems. So rather than tinker, I've decided to see how she wears over the next 400 rounds or so. If the feed problems go away, this may end up in my carry rotation. If not, it will join the Delta as a frustrating range queen.
So that is how I spent my hour of range time today. I'm not entirely unhappy, so much as wistful for the days when my back and the top of my hand didn't hurt so much after an hour of shooting. I'm not the shooter I was a decade ago, but considering how little practice I get these days, I still feel reasonably comfortable with my skill level. And I had a good time, even with the frustrations. And it is how I really shoot, so I may as well get comfortable with it.
And that shifty guy from earlier?
I used my silenced guns on him and his twin just for fun.
My Sig continues to surprise me. On it's own, it is decent but not spectacular. However, out of all my .45 ACP silencer hosts, this combination consistently outperforms every other one. This is just a really good combination.
He's dead, Johnny. 
I've personally never really liked the feel of the Sig Sauer 1911's triggers. Dunno what's off about it. I'd say it's the serrations on the trigger or something, but than again my MR-73 has those too & they're not a problem. Weird.
I've personally never really liked the feel of the Sig Sauer 1911's triggers. Dunno what's off about it. I'd say it's the serrations on the trigger or something, but than again my MR-73 has those too & they're not a problem. Weird.
WillisPDunlevey
Mildly Dipped
I made these firearms out of some black powder 1858 Ubertis. All three of them have been converted to accept cartridges. Both of the long barreled ones accept .45 Long Colt and .45 Schofield. The shorter one is chambered for .45 ACP.
You can swap cylinders out and shoot black powder out of them or swap cartridges. The conversion took about an hour for each (grinding with a dremel) and then added parts I bought.
The tomahawks and knives that go with them came from Osborne Forge.
WPD
Attachments
T
TorontoReign
Guest
Good to see you again buddy!
WillisPDunlevey
Mildly Dipped
Hey there good to see you too!
I havent posted in a while... a lot of Fallout meh going on.
I have been spending more time playing with my fallout inspired post apoc guns and explaining to everyone (cops included) that yes they (my guns) work and yes they are legal. The worst thing about being at a gunshow/indoor range is having people come up and tell you that you are breaking the law even when you have the paperwork to prove otherwise.
I think the next one I am going to do is a short barreled 1861 colt army in .45 LC (or maybe .45 ACP)
Last edited:
Gonzalez
Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
@WillisPDunlevey Have you considered making a working .223 pistol? The Fallout one that was inspired in Deckard's gun from Blade Runner. Would such gun work?
Last edited by a moderator:
donperkan
Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
I don't understand, why are they considered illegal?