Todd Howard is an odd little man. I never know if he genuinely believes his own bullshit or if he knows he’s being a little glitch gremlin and just doesn’t care.
The overleveled trash mobs are what I hate most
- Thread starter CT Phipps
- Start date
0wing
Все умрут, а я волномут
As if overleveled mobs are such a big problem, their AI is still trash and they still move and react like a pregnant turtle. Just shoot from a height.
Norzan
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
It's like they go out of the way to not make traditional level scaling, they have to invent new kinds of bullshit level scaling, like an area being scaled to the highest level player. They are so afraid of having to make certain areas much higher level than you are at early levels, meaning you have no chance of survival, and things like this give you temporary goals and have the early areas being populated with weak enemies with the occasional strong enemy.
It's like Bethesda doesn't know that stuff like this, and like i said, gives the player temporary goals. You level up in the early areas, get stronger, and then move on the next area and repeat. And you always have that very high level area in the back of your mind, driving you forward because you want to go there and see what it has.
Instead it has bullshit like areas with 35-99. Why is the gap so big? Why couldn't the area be like only 80-99? Why is there such large level gaps in several areas?
It's like Bethesda doesn't know that stuff like this, and like i said, gives the player temporary goals. You level up in the early areas, get stronger, and then move on the next area and repeat. And you always have that very high level area in the back of your mind, driving you forward because you want to go there and see what it has.
Instead it has bullshit like areas with 35-99. Why is the gap so big? Why couldn't the area be like only 80-99? Why is there such large level gaps in several areas?
Last edited:
I don't work in the game industry and certainly not at Bethesda. I'd wager that it's probably because of this:
If you have three areas with minimum levels of 30, 40, 50 (or whatever it said) and it can scaled enemies up to level 99, those are the three end game areas that most of the game wants to take place. They have a different minimum so they can be introduced as you're leveling up so when you hit 30 you find the first one, then move onto the next one later, and so on.
They kept the other ones below 50 so that even if you're level 99 you aren't shooting level 10s but rather something like a level 35 or so. Enough that a group of enemies can't outright kill you but you can't outright ignore them for too long either. Making it feel like a newbie area but making it so high level players have to still shoot the enemies that spawn for them.
I could be wrong. I also don't necessarily agree with this but that's how I think they thought of setting it up with the way the levels were listed on that map. I dunno.
mannawyadden
It Wandered In From the Wastes
You don't like that they revived it after its previous owner let it die? You would prefer that Brotherhood of Steel be the last game in the Fallout universe, even though Bethesda's games led to countless fan-made mods and new fans discovering Fallout for the first time?
It's an honest question. I'm trying hard to understand your point of view.
Did he? I can't find it. Source, please?
It makes sense if you look at the map I posted and read Squadcar's explanation.
Bottom line is the level scaling is nowhere near as bad as it could be. I haven't even felt the effects of it at all yet. I get killed if I go to a high level area, as it should be.
I mean, if it wasn't for Bethesda I might not have found the games when I did and become so invested in them or gotten Fallout: New Vegas. But if Interplay also let Van Buren (Fallout 3) happen and it was an even bigger success who knows? Too many ifs for when we're stuck with what is. I think people are allowed to be upset at the new Fallouts that were published by Bethesda, even New Vegas. They're action RPGs when the series was RPGs, that is if you ask me.
If I liked Doom then you turned it around and made a RPG with no action out of it, I might be upset. I didn't play Doom for character sheets, quests, levelling up, etc. I played Doom to shoot demons. Expectations are part of the context and context matters a lot.
Norzan
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Again with this bullshit that "Bethesda revived the series". They didn't revived the series, they outbid Troika games, a studio that made much better RPGs than Bethesda. I would have taken a last good Fallout made by Troika if they went under after instead of the complete rape Bethesda did with the franchise. And that means giving up New Vegas.
It's an awful level scaling system. I'm reading stories of very high leveled players coming to lower level areas where lower level players are, making so the enemies there now scale to the level of the high level players. The now high level monsters kill the low level players because they have no chance against these monsters, and the high level players loot the junk the low level players drop.
Does that make any sense to you? Because it doesn't to me.
Last edited:
Yeah, I forget to mention that. Troika was bidding on Fallout too. Was there anyone else bidding? I know Troika closed down afterwards but who knows what might have happened if they won that bid?
I'm kinda curious as to who else could have gotten the IP.
Also, my explanation was just a guess as to why they did it the way they did. They should have it where everyone does damage respectively to mobs as if they were within the same bracket of levels as the mobs.
Example: Level 5 player with Level 4-5 gear and a Level 50 player with Level 45-50 gear in the same area. Mobs spawn. Mobs are seen as level 6-7 to the level 5 player but they appear to be level 48 to the level 50 player. The level 50 player has more and better perks, gear, and a slightly higher level than the mobs do. This makes the player seem stronger to the level 5 and able to contribute without insta-gibbing anything in his path. This allows the level 5 to participate in the fight but has a little bit more trouble dealing damage than the level 50 player.
Is that perfect? No. Would it make a lot more sense? YES.
I'm kinda curious as to who else could have gotten the IP.
Also, my explanation was just a guess as to why they did it the way they did. They should have it where everyone does damage respectively to mobs as if they were within the same bracket of levels as the mobs.
Example: Level 5 player with Level 4-5 gear and a Level 50 player with Level 45-50 gear in the same area. Mobs spawn. Mobs are seen as level 6-7 to the level 5 player but they appear to be level 48 to the level 50 player. The level 50 player has more and better perks, gear, and a slightly higher level than the mobs do. This makes the player seem stronger to the level 5 and able to contribute without insta-gibbing anything in his path. This allows the level 5 to participate in the fight but has a little bit more trouble dealing damage than the level 50 player.
Is that perfect? No. Would it make a lot more sense? YES.
Norzan
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
I think it was only Troika and Bethesda. And yes, i would have taken the chance of Troika making a good Fallout game. Maybe it would have happened, maybe not, i still would have taken my bet on this instead of Bethesda.
I really don't give a shit if Bethesda "introduced people to Fallout" by buying the license. All it did in the end was create a rift between people that like the first two games and the ones that like the 3D games. Seriously, i see Bethesda fans quite often claiming the first two games suck because they are turn based and "ancient".
And mods were going to happen anyway, you have a ton of mods for the first two games.
Last edited:
Oh boy, here we go again, we certainly didn't have this kind of discussion in quite some while. Alight boys n girls, lets do this.
Sometimes, some things should be either done right, or left alone. Just because you can do someting, doesn't mean you have to or that there is even a need to.
Well Fallout 1 didn't really need a 'restauration' in my opinion, but I think (hope?) you get the picture - yes pun intended.
There is also a bit of a missinformation here, If my memory serves me correctly Bethesda simply managed to outbid 2 other companies that also wanted the Fallout IP, I definetly remember that Troika was keen on buying it and had even already a prototype in development.
See here:
So this idea that Beth was this glorious shining knight in armor that saved poor Fallout from a cold and dark demise is rubbish. It's as simple as that. Bethesda needed a new IP next to Elder Scrolls, that was known and could be easily adopted to their own formula, there is certainly more Oblivion in Fallout 3 than there is Fallout. And if you look at how many projects today in the indy-genre and kick-starter community gave live to old games many people thought as dead, it's also quite possible that someone might have picked up Fallout at some point. Who knows. But that's just speculation on my part. The point is, Fallout was bought by bethesda for millions of dollars and I do not believe even for a second that this was done out of nostalgia. Bethesda is run by investors. They want returns. They want sales. And that's what Todd Howard delivers.
Well, look at where we are now then? Fallout 76 that easily follows the footsteps of Brotherhood of Steel in terms of retardness, bugs and yeah, even ratings. Glorious revival of an old Franchise! You know, at this point I would expect Fallout 5 to be a Battle Royal Game without any story line, just ... go out there from a random vault and kill everyone before the radiation kills all in a certain time ... I would not put that past Bethesda. The thing that drives Bethesda these days, is money and popularity.
Fallout tourists, you mean. Not fans. How can someone be a fan who disslikes Fallout 1 and 2? I am not talking about you right now, just the countless of drones that entered these forums over the years, trying to educate us in how stupid we are for following the old concept and how we should accept Bethesda and their take on the franchise. Well, now they have their Fallout 76 that's not even a role playing game anymore. It's just an assumption, but I also have the feeling the overhwelming majority of Nu-Fallout fans, doesn't really like Fallout 1 and 2. The gameplay, the looks, the narrative. It's simply to different from Fallout 3. And I am not even blaming them. Selling a role playing game to a shooter fan, is useless. Because that is what all Bethesda games are. First Person Shooters with shitty combat. Even Skyrim for that matter, just with swords and axes really.
And while mods are funn, 90% of the content out there is bascically reskinn of the stuff you already have in the game. There are a few interesting mods out there, but they don't make the game. If the game can't stand on its own legs without mods, then there is an issue. But I we should give credit where credit is due, yeah, the availability for mods, has been pretty amazing. But even that, is becoming less of an asset, when you look at Fallout 4 and now Fallout 76.
Well, let me put it like this.
We are a weird bunch here. Well most of us are anyway. Kinda like one of those old Gentlemenclubs or Secret Societies like the Freemasons that run the country, that exist for god knows how long, that have their traditions and where they spend their time sitting in their chairs and talking about the 'good old times'. In our case, it's role playing games. Fallout 1 wasn't the only game here that had a huge influence on us, mind you. There is Icewind Dale, Baldurs Gate, Diablo, Planescape Torment and many more. Each one of them, a great game in their respective genre. And we see time and time again how those franchises are bastardized, mainly for profit and popularisation, they are huge brands and sell tons of money. But most of us here do not care about populairty. We want a certain kind of experience. Yes, it is a Niche today, but no one ever forced Bethesda to buy Fallout and turn it into what it is today, just as no one ever forced Blizzard to make Diablo 3. We certainly didn't. Particularly when people try to tell us, how we're outdated and old fashioned for still believing that a sequel to a game, should follow the same footsteps in gameplay and looks. Turning Fallout in basically a first person shooter, isn't what most of us here consider an improvement. It's merely a shift in a different direction. I am not blaming anyone for liking this direction. But no one can expect us to approve of it. Particuilarly when you consider, that the gameplay for it self, is not outdated infact it's actually becoming, in a limitted fashion, popular again:
There is zero reason to not take Fallout as a franchise, and release something that's very similar to what Fallout 1 offered in terms of gameplay, with updated visuals of course.
He said it jokingly at some press conference. He wasn't serious about it.
mannawyadden
It Wandered In From the Wastes
Don't believe everything you read. I've actually played the game and the situation you describe is literally impossible. Look at the map and tell me the name of this mythical lower level area that allows high level players to murder them with level scaling.
The series was dead, unless you consider BoS and the cancellation of Van Buren to be signs of a healthy, thriving series?
Troika was already deep in its death throes when they halfheartedly made a bid for Fallout 3. They didn't win, and the company shut down, because it was already moving toward shutting down. They didn't want to be business owners. Their hearts weren't in it anymore. Do you honestly believe that Troika was in any position to successfully make Fallout 3 at that point in their careers? They'd have been as successful as Interplay was with Project V13/Fallout Online.
Look at the number of high quality mods for Fallout 3 and New Vegas, and compare that number against Fallout 1 and 2.
Obviously their motivations were purely for financial gain. That doesn't change the fact that the franchise would be dead and gone if they hadn't bought it. You believe that Bethesda did such a horrible job with Fallout that it would've been better if the franchise stayed dead? That's your opinion, I disagree.
Last I checked, I was told that NMA didn't have a rule that said No Bethesda Allowed. This thread is on the Fallout 76 subforum and I was trying to discuss Fallout 76.
Last edited:
No one here ever said that. We're just merely pointing out the fact, that Bethesda wasn't necessarily the only factor here.
So what? So was Bethesda a few times, but Zenimax steped in with huge investements and gave them the chance to finish Morrowind.
Todd Howard: "The company went through some very hard times. We were very very close to going out of business in the late nineties."
Reporter: "Daggerfall didn't sell well?"
Todd Howard: "Daggerfall did fine, then we spread ourselves thin. We started doing a lot of games, and they just weren't good enough. And they weren't the kind of games we should've been making at the time.
We did Battlespire, I did Redguard—a game I love, but it didn't do well for the company—and we have been working on the Tenth Planet, and there were other projects no one had heard about. So there was this period... Daggerfall was '96, maybe to 2000, we went through some very rough times. And that was when Bethesda became part of Zenimax, and that gave us kind of a new lease on life, really. And we went into Morrowind.
https://kotaku.com/bethesda-might-have-gone-out-of-business-if-not-for-mor-1587098880
I never said you have to agree, buddy. But you where asking us for our opinion. You came in here after all starting a discussion on a community of people that well simply do not think very highly of Bethesda. You can like it, or leave it. But that's how it simply is. And I think we can also explain our thoughts with some valid reasoning. We simply do not like, what Bethesda offers. You obviously do and you know what? That's perfectly fine. Just don't tell us that we should like it as well.https://kotaku.com/bethesda-might-have-gone-out-of-business-if-not-for-mor-1587098880
Last edited:
Norzan
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Yeah, mods made in fucking Gamebryo, one of the worst engines ever made. Meanwhile Fallout 1.5, Fallout Nevada and many other mods for the first two games that are much better.
I just watched a review and the reviewer showing this happening. Several times actually and he says the same happened to some of his friends. Just because it doesn't happen to you, it doesn't mean it happens to others.
And are you blind? There's a level 35-99 area. That's a fucking gap of 64 levels. It means a level 35 player can enter it and then a level 99 player enters it and suddenly the monsters are in the upper 90s.
How do you know? Troika's Fallout could have easily been sucessful and keep the company afloat so that they could make more games. And like Crni Vuk said, the same happened to Bethesda a few times and other compnanies as well.
And i repeat again - Bethesda "reviving" the series was NOT a good thing. It led to a company that doesn't give a shit about lore, internal consistency, good writing, meaningful exploration and many other things that matter to RPG to produce three god awful RPGs. The series being "alive" wasn't worth this.
Last edited:
mannawyadden
It Wandered In From the Wastes
I replied to this thread to stop the spread of misinformation and post helpful information about the game.
You replied to this thread to let everyone know that you don't like Bethesda.
Where did I say you have to like it? I don't care what you like or dislike. Quote the part of my post you're referring to?
Source? I'd like to watch it as well and get to the bottom of this, because the situation you describe should be impossible.
As for Troika, maybe they could've been successful if an investor came in, but the writing was on the wall. They didn't want to be business owners anymore. Maybe Leonard did, but the others didn't; their hearts weren't in it anymore, judging by the interview I posted up there.
Norzan
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
The lost of Fallout to Bethesda was pretty much the straw that broke the camel's back for them. They didn't want to run business anymore because they lost the franchise they wanted. You can clearly deduce that from the interview you posted. If they truly didn't want to run a business in the first place, why make games? Why make Arcanum or VTMB? They clearly cared to an extent.
Can't find the exact video showing the level scaling bullshit, but i just watched this one and the reviewer at 0:55 explains why the level scaling is terrible.
*raises hand meekly* up until 76 I was actually indifferent towards Bethesda....
*stoning commences*
*stoning commences*
mannawyadden
It Wandered In From the Wastes
55:00, not 0:55. The reviewer does admit that the level scaling is capped in lower level areas. Those lower level areas actually make up half of the playable area in the game - everything west of Savage Divide. The example shown in the video of him getting murdered by a level 58 Glowing One is happening near Harper's Ferry. Here is where Harper's Ferry is located:
That dark area on the right is The Mire, a 30-99 zone. A new player should not be wandering around The Mire and they deserve to be killed if they do. Also, he started shooting at that enemy with a sniper rifle knowing full well that it was level 58. He could've...not attacked it.
Last edited:
Walpknut
This ghoul has seen it all
The "would you prefer FOBOS being the last Fallout games" thing has lost what little strenght it had thanks to Fallout 4 and Fallout 76.
Yes! I did. I am glad that you noticed.
I just merely tried to answer this question here. I am really sorry if I hurted your feelings with my first post
. No! Don't look at me like that! I really do. Can we continue now, or will you stay salty over it till kingdom come?Man. I've became old. An soft. I am apologizing to newbs.
It was really meant more as like a general suggestion. Something that you shouldn't do. Bad wording on my part.
Still, the point is that you decided to register here and this means you will meet some form of resistance. How could you not? I certainly would not expect anything less if I decided to post on a Fallout 76 fan forum or something, giving them my opinion or trying to lecture them or what ever.
Yeeah ... and no one disputes that. The point is, that Bethesda was simply not the only one interested and very few people around here care for what they did to the franchise. And that we can't be sure there wouldn't have been a game by Troika, if Bethesda wasn't involved and got the IP before them. Maybe a Fallout 3 would have been their last project. Their Magnum Opus. Who knows? And even if Bethesda wasn't picking it up and neither Troika, we might have a kick starter project today or some indy-team working on it. The chances for that are not very great, but Wasteland 2 and now Wasteland 3 in the production shows there's at least a possibility.
mannawyadden
It Wandered In From the Wastes
Hmm...a kickstarter or indy team. Maybe NMA could've even spearheaded it. Fallout 3 surely would've raised a huge amount from crowdfunding. Did you enjoy Wasteland 2?