The truth behind 9/11

John Uskglass said:
Can someone get rid of that idiot's sig? That's illegal in some countries, and it's offensive.

Although this guy is rediculous dont you think that keeping that in his sig only discredits him more? Besides taking it away would only justify what he believes...that everyone is oppressing him. Let him think that til he realizes he's only deluding himself.

Sincerely,
The Vault Dweller
 
Dr. Jerkoholic

While your posts do contain a few scattered truths, for the most part you have taken honest facts and misconstrued them to fit your paranoid fantasy (read: Conspiracy theory).

If I had to take an educated guess, I would say you are smoking entirely too much pot.
 
Glencannon said:
Dr. Jerkoholic

”While your posts do contain a few scattered truths, for the most part you have taken honest facts and misconstrued them to fit your paranoid fantasy (read: Conspiracy theory).”

Would you care to explain as what exactly is this conspiracy theory I’ve allegedly conjured out of thin air?

Am I to gather from your posts so far that none of you, excluding Paladin Solo and 4too, found anything unusual in the official story of 9/11, which can shortly be summarized as following:

On that date [September 11, 2001], as is well known, 19 terrorists associated with an organization called al Qaeda hijacked four [Boeing 757 and 767] airplanes, and succeeded in crashing three of them into public buildings they had targeted — one into each of the two towers of the World Trade Center in New York, and one into the Pentagon near Washington, D.C. The result of which was that the World Trade Center towers were destroyed and the Pentagon was seriously damaged. Passengers on the fourth airplane sought to overpower the hijackers, and in so doing prevented that airplane from being similarly used, although it too crashed, in a field in Pennsylvania, and all aboard were killed. In all, more than 3,000 people were killed in that day's coordinated attacks.

The official story also includes the assertion that the "19 terrorists" were all from Saudi Arabia, and that their identities were announced within a few days by the FBI (though at least six are reportedly still alive enough to protest at the misuse of their identities).

The official story has been augmented by details provided by the mainstream media, as follows. Several of the alleged "19 Arab terrorists" had attended flight schools in Florida (their instructors regarded them as incompetent). The Arabs succeeded in overpowering the flight crews despite the fact that they (the terrorists) were armed only with box cutters. Two of the Boeings were deliberately crashed into the Twin Towers, causing raging fires within which turned the steel holding up the buildings into putty, thereby causing them to collapse completely. A third Boeing, after flying around for an hour, was deliberately crashed at high speed into the Pentagon under very debatable circumstances. Heroic passengers on the fourth plane overpowered the hijackers and caused the plane to crash in Pennsylvania. This was an Attack on America and it was planned and directed by one Usama bin Laden (because he hates our freedoms), the leader of Al-Qaeda, a previously obscure anti-U.S. international terrorist organization composed mainly of Arabs (who hate our freedoms).

The official story, either in its bare-bones form or its added-details form, cries out for further explanations, but the official story provides almost nothing more. We are simply expected to believe it without question. And to question the official story is to be labeled "unpatriotic".

According to the official story the four jetliners were hijacked by nineteen Arab terrorists. It is certainly possible to find Arabs who are willing to die for their cause (freedom of their people from ongoing American interference and domination and brutal Israeli aggression) — although finding nineteen of them for a single mission could be difficult — but where do you find such Arabs who also know how to fly Boeing 757s and Boeing 767s? (None of the alleged Arab hijackers had ever worked as professional pilots.) At least four highly trained pilots are needed. Alleged hijacker-pilots Mohammed Atta, Marwanal Al-Shehhi and Hani Hanjour had received pilot training (courtesy of the CIA?) but were considered by their flying instructors to be incompetent to fly even light single-engine planes.

I’m not saying that any of this can’t be true, but why then isn’t there any verifiable proof that America actually was attacked by Arab Al- Qaeda sponsored terrorists? And how come Usama Bin Laden hasn’t been caught yet? How hard can it be for one man to be found, especially when he’s been pursued by the worlds largest police force?
Or is it in their interest that he should never be caught at all, or when it becomes a pragmatical necessity be found dead and his body accidentally cremated?

And you still believe that the War on Drugs was anything more than an elaborate cover-up perpetuated by crypto-facist scumbags? The same ones behind War on Terror, I would wager...

Prohibition (1920-1933 R.I.P.) was known as The Noble Experiment. The results of the experiment are clear: innocent people suffered; organized crime grew into an empire; the police, courts, and politicians became corrupt; disrespect for the law grew; and the per capita consumption of the prohibited substance — alcohol — increased dramatically, year by year, for the next thirteen years of this Noble Experiment, never to return to the pre-1920 levels.
You would think that an experiment with such clear results would not need to be repeated; but the experiment is being repeated; it's going on today. Only the prohibited substances have changed. The results remain the same. They are clearer now than they were then. — Peter McWilliams

The "war on drugs" is in part a propaganda war. The techniques of propaganda were first raised to an art by the Bolsheviks, and were refined and used by fascists of various colors from the 1930s in Europe to present-day America. The political scientist Leonard Schapiro, writing of Stalin, said:

The true object of propaganda is neither to convince nor even to persuade, but to produce a uniform pattern of public utterance in which the first trace of unorthodox thought reveals itself as a jarring dissonance.

To the extent that the "drug warriors" (the metaphor of a "war on drugs" is itself one of their propaganda techniques) are successful in their propaganda campaign, any support for the decriminalization of drug usage (not to mention any suggestion that some kinds of prohibited drugs may actually have great potential benefit) will be received by the general public as an opinion obviously deranged, deriving clearly from someone of unsound mind (resulting, of course, as the propagandists would have us believe, from their prior drug usage).

And then there is this War on Terror thing. As if USA isn't the No.1 Terrorist state in the World. Trully, it has come to the point that I am utterly ashamed of my own citizenship and the people who allow these things to keep happening.

On October 12th [2001], a couple of days after the bombing [of Afghanistan] started, [George W.] Bush publicly announced to the Afghan people that we will continue to bomb you, unless your leadership turns over to us the people who we suspect of carrying out crimes, although we refuse to give you any evidence. ...

Notice that is a textbook illustration of international terrorism, by the US official definition. That is the use of the threat of force or violence, in this case extreme violence, to obtain political ends through intimidation, fear and so on. That's the official definition, a textbook illustration of it.

Three weeks later, by the end of October, the war aims had changed. They were first announced as far as I can find out, by the British Defense Minister, Sir Admiral Boyce. Admiral Boyce informed the Afghan population that we will continue to bomb you until you change your leadership. Well, that's an even more dramatic illustration of international terrorism ...

— Noam Chomsky
 
Dr. Jerkoholic said:
The official story, either in its bare-bones form or its added-details form, cries out for further explanations, but the official story provides almost nothing more. We are simply expected to believe it without question. And to question the official story is to be labeled "unpatriotic".

According to the official story the four jetliners were hijacked by nineteen Arab terrorists. It is certainly possible to find Arabs who are willing to die for their cause (freedom of their people from ongoing American interference and domination and brutal Israeli aggression) — although finding nineteen of them for a single mission could be difficult
No it isn't. It's very easy. Hell, some six of them have been found to conspire (not found guilty, yet, though), and they were under the age of 20, and raised in the Netherlands. They weren't raised in a predominantly Muslim and Anti-American country. Really, looking at the number of terrorist attacks in Israel or other places, it's really not that surprising that people decided to try it on the USA.

— but where do you find such Arabs who also know how to fly Boeing 757s and Boeing 767s? (None of the alleged Arab hijackers had ever worked as professional pilots.) At least four highly trained pilots are needed. Alleged hijacker-pilots Mohammed Atta, Marwanal Al-Shehhi and Hani Hanjour had received pilot training (courtesy of the CIA?) but were considered by their flying instructors to be incompetent to fly even light single-engine planes.
They don't need to be highly trained. All they need to be capable of is using the throttle and rudder, and not letting the plane crash into the ground before it hits the WTC. There's no landing, no lift-off, just straightforward flying.


Doc said:
I’m not saying that any of this can’t be true, but why then isn’t there any verifiable proof that America actually was attacked by Arab Al- Qaeda sponsored terrorists?
Other than the burning twin towers, the Madrid and London attacks, Afghanistan and several tapes?
Jerko said:
And how come Usama Bin Laden hasn’t been caught yet? How hard can it be for one man to be found, especially when he’s been pursued by the worlds largest police force?
Or is it in their interest that he should never be caught at all, or when it becomes a pragmatical necessity be found dead and his body accidentally cremated?
I would like to point you towards all of the war criminals from the Balkan who still, years afterward, haven't been found. And I'd also like to say that hiding is a lot easier than finding.
 
But Mr. Sander how do you expect me to believe your assertions when there isn’t a tiniest shred of evidence left for me and others to evaluate their validity?
You say you have on multiple occasions driven by ostensibly conflagration-induced building collapse-itis sites, but have you actually ever stopped to examine the site from up close and personal? And is it your professional opinion that the metal (which could be anything, since you didn’t care to specify) columns, girders (or whatever you mentioned there) had melted due to prolonged exposure (of whose exact length you again failed to inform us) to a continued and unabated fire source (of what nature, how induced, how contained)?

Sander said:
«They don't need to be highly trained. All they need to be capable of is using the throttle and rudder, and not letting the plane crash into the ground before it hits the WTC. There's no landing, no lift-off, just straightforward flying.»

Again, your professional opinion? As a side note, their flight profile was anything but straitforward – that much at least I would expect of you to know. Hell, even the US government admitted that it was done by professionals.

«Other than the burning twin towers, the Madrid and London attacks, Afghanistan and several tapes?»

Oh how lovely of you to point out those facts. Had it ever occurred to you that the 7/7 London bombings were not the work of some crazed "Muslim extremists" acting from an "ideology of hatred", as Tony Blair (a war criminal like his master Bush) would have us believe. Rather they can be understood in the context of the overall game plan of the Anglo-American crypto-fascist project for the expropriation of all the world's economic resources and the “enslavement” of everyone who manages to survive the coming “extermination campaign”. And "Old Europe", far from constituting a moral opposition, is itself complicit.

The growth of military spending in Europe is directly related to the US military buildup. The more America spends on defense, the more Europe will want to spend on developing its own European Defense Force ... all of which is for a good and worthy, cause, namely fighting "Islamic terrorists" and defending the homeland. — Michel Chossudovsky

So those residing in Europe, North America and Australia will be paying a lot more in taxes in future, ostensibly to support "the fight against terrorists" and in "the defence of the homeland". In reality their hard-earned money will be going to finance the development of advanced weapons systems with which to threaten the colored races, whose peoples labor in factories for a few dollars a day to produce the goods that are consumed in the West. It's all connected. In order for the privileged (and the ever-decreasing middle class) in the West to continue their extravagant lifestyles (at the expense of everyone else's labor) a few "terrorist attacks", with sufficient loss of life to shock and awe the tax-paying public, are required now and then. The London Bombings were such an event.

I mean, just review the damn facts:

The blood was hardly dry when Tony Blair went on TV at the G8 summit in Scotland to blame "Muslim extremists". This tells us everything.
The attack was carried out:
• To sabotage the G8 meeting, which was in danger of actually producing some progress toward debt relief in Africa and dealing with global warming.
• To further promote the myths of "Arab/Muslim terrorists" and the "War on Terror".
• To distract attention from Blair's lies leading to British participation in the war on Iraq.
• To terrorize the British people into not opposing the British government's rush toward a police state, including the introduction of identity cards (the better to control the population).
The London attack was a disaster for the aspirations of the African leaders and for those attempting to get some action from the Bush Administration on mitigating global warming and avoiding a global die-off.

One has to wonder how much of Blair's apparent effort to lead the G8 toward doing something positive for the world was a sham, done with the foreknowledge of this event and that it would sabotage the G8 summit, so that he could appear noble while privately being sure that nothing would happen to upset the plans of his NWO handlers.

It is interesting that Rudy Giuliani, Mayor of New York at the time of the 9/11 attacks, was in West Yorkshire (where three of the alleged bombers lived) on the day before the attack, and on 7/7 just happened to be "just yards from Liverpool Street station when the bombs went off." (What a double coincidence, Rudy! But with your impressive record in "crisis management" in Manhattan on 9/11 it's not surprising that you were present.) It's almost as if the perps are brazenly telling those who can understand that it was the work of the same gang who gave us 9/11, Bali and Madrid.

On 9/11 it was announced by the mainstream media within hours of the attacks in New York and Washington that the prime suspect was Osama bin Laden, hitherto little-known alleged leader of a hitherto practically unknown group of alleged terrorists named "Al-Qaeda".

Similarly on 7/7 UK Foreign Minister Jack Straw stated within hours: "It has the hallmarks of an al Qaeda-related attack." It certainly resembled the Madrid bombings, but if that was what Jack Straw meant then he failed to point out that the suspects in that atrocity were police informants with links to Spain's security services.

Tony Blair, in a televised address to the nation from London asserted: "We know that these people act in the name of Islam but we also know that the vast and overwhelming majority of Muslims here and abroad are decent and law abiding people who abhor terrorism every bit as much as we do." So without a scrap of evidence Blair asserted that Muslims did it.

Bin Laden tapes? How can you prove they’re not a forgery, or explain that Bin Laden initially denied any connection to the 9/11 terrorist attacks? Hell, there’s even a video showing him say that!
Oh, and your snide anti-Semitism remarks…let's not take that avenue of discourse, please.

As many observers have written recently, an anti-Semite used to mean someone who hated Jews because they were Jews. Now, the term anti-Semite is used by Jews to tar and feather anyone who disagrees with Jewish policies, influences, and effects. Complain about Israelis burying alive Palestinian residents of Jenin and Jews say you're an anti-Semite. Wonder about the preponderance of Jewish influence on the American government and you're an anti-Semite.
 
Good God...I thought I was once deep in ideological bullshit....

Dude...you've seen one too fucking many movies.

If you're going live in lala-land, try to have some things make sense so you can have a little hold on reality in case things don't work out... Seriously, all sarcasm and humour aside, you reek of bullshit. No offense...
 
So far, I've heard enough theories on what-the-hell-happened-on-9/11, but the one Dr. Jerky represents looks the most possible one. Because I believe in logic. And in physics.

Thanks for attention, Comrades.
 
Dr. Jerkoholic said:
But Mr. Sander how do you expect me to believe your assertions when there isn’t a tiniest shred of evidence left for me and others to evaluate their validity?
You say you have on multiple occasions driven by ostensibly conflagration-induced building collapse-itis sites, but have you actually ever stopped to examine the site from up close and personal? And is it your professional opinion that the metal (which could be anything, since you didn’t care to specify) columns, girders (or whatever you mentioned there) had melted due to prolonged exposure (of whose exact length you again failed to inform us) to a continued and unabated fire source (of what nature, how induced, how contained)?
In short: the buildings' metal supporting frame had in part melted in a normal building fire. There's nothing more to say, really.

Docco said:
Again, your professional opinion? As a side note, their flight profile was anything but straitforward – that much at least I would expect of you to know. Hell, even the US government admitted that it was done by professionals.
Yet during the months after the attacks all I kept hearing was "Although they were incompetent at flying, all they needed to do was fly the planes into the buildings."

Doc Morbid said:
Oh how lovely of you to point out those facts. Had it ever occurred to you that the 7/7 London bombings were not the work of some crazed "Muslim extremists" acting from an "ideology of hatred", as Tony Blair (a war criminal like his master Bush) would have us believe. Rather they can be understood in the context of the overall game plan of the Anglo-American crypto-fascist project for the expropriation of all the world's economic resources and the “enslavement” of everyone who manages to survive the coming “extermination campaign”. And "Old Europe", far from constituting a moral opposition, is itself complicit.

The growth of military spending in Europe is directly related to the US military buildup. The more America spends on defense, the more Europe will want to spend on developing its own European Defense Force ... all of which is for a good and worthy, cause, namely fighting "Islamic terrorists" and defending the homeland. — Michel Chossudovsky

So those residing in Europe, North America and Australia will be paying a lot more in taxes in future, ostensibly to support "the fight against terrorists" and in "the defence of the homeland". In reality their hard-earned money will be going to finance the development of advanced weapons systems with which to threaten the colored races, whose peoples labor in factories for a few dollars a day to produce the goods that are consumed in the West. It's all connected. In order for the privileged (and the ever-decreasing middle class) in the West to continue their extravagant lifestyles (at the expense of everyone else's labor) a few "terrorist attacks", with sufficient loss of life to shock and awe the tax-paying public, are required now and then. The London Bombings were such an event.

I mean, just review the damn facts:

The blood was hardly dry when Tony Blair went on TV at the G8 summit in Scotland to blame "Muslim extremists". This tells us everything.
The attack was carried out:
• To sabotage the G8 meeting, which was in danger of actually producing some progress toward debt relief in Africa and dealing with global warming.
• To further promote the myths of "Arab/Muslim terrorists" and the "War on Terror".
• To distract attention from Blair's lies leading to British participation in the war on Iraq.
• To terrorize the British people into not opposing the British government's rush toward a police state, including the introduction of identity cards (the better to control the population).
The London attack was a disaster for the aspirations of the African leaders and for those attempting to get some action from the Bush Administration on mitigating global warming and avoiding a global die-off.

One has to wonder how much of Blair's apparent effort to lead the G8 toward doing something positive for the world was a sham, done with the foreknowledge of this event and that it would sabotage the G8 summit, so that he could appear noble while privately being sure that nothing would happen to upset the plans of his NWO handlers.

It is interesting that Rudy Giuliani, Mayor of New York at the time of the 9/11 attacks, was in West Yorkshire (where three of the alleged bombers lived) on the day before the attack, and on 7/7 just happened to be "just yards from Liverpool Street station when the bombs went off." (What a double coincidence, Rudy! But with your impressive record in "crisis management" in Manhattan on 9/11 it's not surprising that you were present.) It's almost as if the perps are brazenly telling those who can understand that it was the work of the same gang who gave us 9/11, Bali and Madrid.

On 9/11 it was announced by the mainstream media within hours of the attacks in New York and Washington that the prime suspect was Osama bin Laden, hitherto little-known alleged leader of a hitherto practically unknown group of alleged terrorists named "Al-Qaeda".

Similarly on 7/7 UK Foreign Minister Jack Straw stated within hours: "It has the hallmarks of an al Qaeda-related attack." It certainly resembled the Madrid bombings, but if that was what Jack Straw meant then he failed to point out that the suspects in that atrocity were police informants with links to Spain's security services.

Tony Blair, in a televised address to the nation from London asserted: "We know that these people act in the name of Islam but we also know that the vast and overwhelming majority of Muslims here and abroad are decent and law abiding people who abhor terrorism every bit as much as we do." So without a scrap of evidence Blair asserted that Muslims did it.
Stop referring to muslim terrorist as if they don't exist and are a myth. Bloody hell, man, it's not like I like their existence, but there is no reason whatsoever to assume that they wouldn't. The only reason you keep referring to them as myths is to find some kind of support for your theories. Face the facts: muslim terrorism has existed for decades, most predominantly in Israel, it's also existed over the past few years in a lot of other countries. The fact that you find it convincing that they are really sponsored by the USA based on nothing but circumstancial coincidences just screams the words 'conspiracy theory'.

Jerko said:
Bin Laden tapes? How can you prove they’re not a forgery, or explain that Bin Laden initially denied any connection to the 9/11 terrorist attacks? Hell, there’s even a video showing him say that!
How can you prove that the are a forgery?

Doc said:
Oh, and your snide anti-Semitism remarks…let's not take that avenue of discourse, please.

As many observers have written recently, an anti-Semite used to mean someone who hated Jews because they were Jews. Now, the term anti-Semite is used by Jews to tar and feather anyone who disagrees with Jewish policies, influences, and effects. Complain about Israelis burying alive Palestinian residents of Jenin and Jews say you're an anti-Semite. Wonder about the preponderance of Jewish influence on the American government and you're an anti-Semite.
Oh, no, let's not take that avenue of discourse, but let's still continue with it! Sheesh.
See, I've only seen two types of people use the term Zionist in seriousness: those dumb Israel-supporters who believe that anything against any actions done by Israel is equal to anti-Semitism and makes you Hitler II, and those even dumber Stormfront idiots. Your blatantly unfounded attempt to brand me as the first while trying to blame for continuing that argument is nothing but annoying.
 
As I have sayid, the USA is corrupted, finally it has started to kill it's own people to get the few more dollars form the money hugging weapon manufacturers as bribes to the so called leaders(politicians).
Dr. Jerkoholic said:
It's all connected. In order for the privileged (and the ever-decreasing middle class) in the West to continue their extravagant lifestyles (at the expense of everyone else's labor) a few "terrorist attacks", with sufficient loss of life to shock and awe the tax-paying public, are required now and then.
At this you are a little wrong, it's not the middle class(the tax payers) that are privileged, it's the war mongers, the weapon manufacturers and so on, that get the benefits.
 
As esteemed colleague Welsh stated, we must overcome the inhibition to talk openly about conspiracies. That the United States is now engaged in a conspiracy to control the world's oil in relation to Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, and Venezuela comes as no surprise. Read John Perkins' Confessions of an Economic Hitman (2004) or Robert Barnett's The Pentagon's New Map (2004) for modern extensions of the predominant attitudes of the recent past elaborated by Peter Dale Scott in Deep Politics and the Death of JFK (1993). But not all conspiracies are global in character and many are more limited in scope, such as the effort to keep an Italian journalist from returning to Italy from her captivity in Iraq, which seems to have been deliberately contrived to contain information about war crimes committed by American forces in Falluja.

If anyone doubts the ubiquitous presence of conspiracies, let them take a look at any newspaper of substance and evaluate the stories that are reported there. For example, I once went through a single issue of The New York Times (18 March 2005), which I then chose as suitable for a case study. Multiple conspiracies are addressed throughout, including the WorldCom scandal, atrocities in Iraq and in Afghanistan (involving the murder of at least twenty-six inmates), the assassination of Refik Hariri in Lebanon, the use of counterfeit news by our own government, an SEC suit against Qwest for fraud, and the 125 bank accounts of Augusto Pinochet, on and on.

Efforts to promote the view that "conspiracy theories" must never be taken seriously continue unabated. A semi recent example of my acquaintance appears in the December 2004 issue of Scientific American Mind (December 2004), its "premiere issue". This issue features an article, "Secret Powers Everywhere", whose author is identified as Thomas Gruter of the University of Munster in Germany. A google search suggests a faculty member by this name studies prosopagnosia (face blindness), which appears far removed from the subject of this essay. Its theme is that, while "most individuals who revel in tales of conspiracies are sane", they "border on delusion". This is a very unscientific article for a publication that, like its sibling, Scientific American, focuses on science. It just goes to show that we’re all subjected to an ongoing propagandistic assault upon rationality.

Although it ought to go without saying, no "conspiracy theory" should be accepted or rejected without research. Each case of a possible conspiracy has to be evaluated independently based on the principles of logic and the available relevant evidence. Conspiracies flourish and time is fleeting. We lack the resources to confront them all. But we need the intelligence and the courage to promote truth in matters of the highest importance to our country and to the world at large. We must do whatever we can to uncover and publish the truth and to expose the techniques so skillfully deployed to defeat us. History cannot be understood—even remotely!—without grasping the prevalence of conspiracies. And American history is no exception.

So yes Sir Solo, you haven’t failed to grasp what this thread is about, after all. But it is my foremost intention to lead this discussion on scientifically plausible grounds only, and as you know conclusions in science are always tentative and fallible, which means the discovery of new evidence or new alternatives may require reconsideration of the inferential situation. The suggestion could be made, for example, that the South Tower fell first because it was hit on a lower floor and to one side of the building, where the lack of symmetry caused it to fall. But that ignores the load-redistribution capabilities built into the towers, which would have precluded that outcome. The claim has also been advanced that the steel only had to weaken, not melt. But the heat generated by the fuel fires never reached temperatures that would weaken the steel and, if it had, the buildings would have sagged asymmetrically, not completely collapsed all at once, as in fact was the case. The buildings both fell abruptly, completely, and symmetrically into their own footprints, which is explicable on the controlled demolition hypothesis but not on the official account.

All of this raises the question: Who had the power to make these things happen and to cover it up? Once the evidence has been sorted out and appropriately appraised, the answer should no longer be very difficult to find. Like the assassination of JFK, the events of 9/11 required involvement at the highest levels of the American government. This conclusion, moreover, receives confirmation from the conduct of our highest elected officials, who took extraordinary steps to prevent any formal investigation of 9/11 and, when it was forced upon them by tremendous political pressure, especially from the survivors of victims of these crimes, they did whatever they could to subvert them. There are good reasons for viewing The 9/11 Commission Report (2004) as the historical successor to and functional equivalent of The Warren Report (1964).

I therefore believe that those of us who care about the truth and the restoration of responsible government in the United States have an obligation to make use of every possible media venue from talk radio and the internet to newspapers and television whenever possible. The American people can act wisely only when they know the truth. So, while the truth is said to "make us free", the truth only matters when the American people are able to discover what is true. Obstacles here that are posed by the government-dominated mass media, including the use of stooge "reporters" and of prepackaged "news releases", only make matters that much more difficult. As John Dean asks in Worse than Watergate (2004), If there has ever been an administration more prone to deceiving the American people in our history, which one could it be?

--------------------- EDIT ------------------------

Here’s a bit more for you to ponder upon: namely the nature of WTC 7 building collapse and the Pentagon attack. The two links I’ve given portray in detail what has occurred and in a systematic and well researched manner point out numerous flaws and contradictions in the official reports of FEMA and ASCE.

Why the collapse of WTC 7 is not explained to this day

The reason why so many people find it hard to accept that a Boeing 757 smashed into the Pentagon

Just take a look at the official report on the collapse of WTC 7:

1. Power to the Twin Towers was wired from the substation in WTC 7 through two separate systems. The first provided power throughout each building; the second provided power only to the emergency systems. In the event of fire, power would only be provided to the emergency systems. This was to prevent arcing electric lines igniting new fires and to reduce the risk of firefighters being electrocuted. There were also six 1,200 kW emergency power generators located in the sixth basement (B-6) level of the towers, which provided a backup power supply. These also had normal and emergency subsystems.
2. Previous to the collapse of the South Tower, the power to the towers was switched to the emergency subsystem to provide power for communications equipment, elevators, emergency lighting in corridors and stairwells, and fire pumps and safety for firefighters. At this time power was still provided by the WTC 7 substation.
3. Con Ed reported that "the feeders supplying power to WTC 7 were de-energized at 9:59 a.m.". This was due to the South Tower collapse which occurred at the same time.
4. Unfortunately, even though the main power system for the towers was switched off and WTC 7 had been evacuated, a design flaw allowed generators (designed to supply backup power for the WTC complex) to start up and resume an unnecessary and unwanted power supply.
5. Unfortunately, debris from the collapse of the north tower (the closest tower) fell across the building known as World Trade Center Six, and then across Vesey Street, and then impacted WTC 7 which is (at closest) 355 feet away from the north tower.
6. Unfortunately, some of this debris penetrated the outer wall of WTC 7, smashed half way through the building, demolishing a concrete masonry wall (in the north half of the building) and then breached a fuel oil pipe that ran across the building just to the north of the masonry wall.
7. Unfortunately, though most of the falling debris was cold, it manages to start numerous fires in WTC 7.
8. Unfortunately, even with the outbreak of numerous fires in the building, no decision was made to turn off the generators now supplying electricity to WTC 7. Fortunately, for the firefighters, someone did make the decision not to fight and contain the fires while they were still small, but to wait until the fires were large and out of control. Otherwise, many firefighters may have been electrocuted while fighting the fires.
9. Unfortunately, the safety mechanism that should have shut down the fuel oil pumps (which were powered by electricity) upon the breaching of the fuel line, failed to work and fuel oil (diesel) was pumped from the Salomon Smith Barney tanks on the ground floor onto the 5th floor where it ignited. The pumps eventually emptied the tanks, pumping some 12,000 gallons in all.
10. Unfortunately, the sprinkler system of WTC 7 malfunctioned and did not extinguish the fires.
11. Unfortunately, the burning diesel heated trusses one and two to the point that they lost their structural integrity.
12. Unfortunately, this then (somehow) caused the whole building to collapse, even though before September 11, no steel framed skyscraper had ever collapsed due to fire.

All of this is addressed with detail in the link I've provided for you.

And then you have the Pentagon, one of the best-protected public buildings in the USA, equipped with its own battery of surface-to-air missiles and the airspace above it is the subject of a permanent overfly ban in respect of commercial aircraft. Its security personnel are trained and equipped to respond swiftly to attempted acts of aggression, including attacks by aircraft. Indeed the Pentagon was particularly aware of the dangers posed by an attack of this kind; only a few years earlier a disgruntled citizen ruffled a few feathers by flying his light plane into a Pentagon wall, an incident that led to a thorough review of the building's emergency procedures. On September 11 however, not a single anti-aircraft missile was fired in the Pentagon's defence. So was the attack so sudden and unexpected that Pentagon staff simply didn't have enough time to take necessary action? Well no. Let's look at that timeline.

American Airlines Flight 77, the plane we have been led to believe hit the Pentagon (though the recent findings of Gerard Holmgren suggest it may never have left the ground), supposedly departed from Washington's Dulles airport at 8.20 am. With the exception of a yet to be explained looped deviation at around 8.46, it flew normally towards its intended destination of Los Angeles until around 9.00 when it did a 180° turn near the Ohio state border and began heading back towards Washington. A minute or two later its transponder signal ceased. At around 9.05 West Virginia flight control noticed an eastbound plane entering its radar space with no radio contact and no transponder identification. By now of course two apparently hijacked planes had already crashed into the World Trade Center in New York. This third plane had changed course and switched off its transponder just like the first two. And it was heading straight for Washington, the US capital and home of the White House and the President! Over twenty minutes later therefore three fighter jets were scrambled to investigate the mystery plane. Unfortunately they were scrambled from Langley AFB in Virginia rather than the nearby Andrews AFB in Washington so were still over a hundred miles short of their target when 'Flight 77' eventually hit the Pentagon.

It's pretty unbelievable stuff but your disbelief has to be suspended for a while longer yet. Having made its way back to Washington unchallenged for over half an hour, the plane was picked up by Washington ATC for the first time at 9.33. By this time it was flying well in excess of 400 mph and on a trajectory that put it directly on course for the White House. Before getting there however the plane suddenly executed a left-hand descending turn, turning almost a complete circle and dropping 7000 ft in two and a half minutes. This complex manoeuvre levelled out perfectly in line for a direct hit on the Pentagon and it flew the last few hundred yards just a few feet above the ground, clipping trees and lamp poles before ploughing into the Pentagon at an estimated speed of 480 mph.

The official commentary on what happened at the Pentagon does not encourage us to ponder why fanatical terrorists would allow Flight 77 to fly for forty minutes or so away from their target before getting round to taking control of the plane, nor how they were then able to fly the plane over two hundred miles, at a time of such high alert, without being intercepted. It offers little by way of coherent explanation as to why, when a response was finally authorized, F-16s were scrambled from an airbase 130 miles away when fighters were ready and waiting at a base less than ten miles from the capital, nor why not a single missile was fired in the Pentagon's defence. There is a deafening silence as to how the plane was able to achieve its final dazzling manoeuvre, even though that high-speed descending turn was well beyond the capabilities of both its alleged pilot (who could scarcely control a Cessna) and indeed of a commercial Boeing 757. Yet this mixture of B-movie hokum and blundering incompetence that would make the Keystone Cops blush is still accepted by many as a sober and accurate exposition of events at the Pentagon. To my mind however one of the most telling indications that the attack on the Pentagon was a carefully contrived internal military operation is that it happened at all.

It is not really surprising that events at the Pentagon have generated considerably more debate and analysis than all the other incidents on September 11 put together. It is also the case however that, easy as it is to point out the gaping holes and inconsistencies in the official account of what happened, arriving at a satisfactory alternative hypothesis — one that takes into account and explains all the known facts of the case — has proved a particularly elusive task. Over four years since the debate and analysis began there are few issues on which the sceptics have achieved anything approaching a consensus. Thus I encourage that you read up on both the ASCE's official account and the link I've provided you before starting to make any conclusions of your own. Though, upon having read those materials you will have hopefully realized how difficult indeed it is to make any definite statement on what had actually occured that day.

The reason for this is straightforward enough. It's because the sum total of genuine hard evidence in the public domain is rather small, much smaller than is the case for the attacks on the Twin Towers. There is considerably less evidence than one might reasonably expect of an incident that occurred in broad daylight in the centre of the capital of the USA. In particular there is no photographic or video record of the plane itself or of its impact with the Pentagon. The true character of these crucial details remains a matter of speculation. Although the Pentagon attack was witnessed by hundreds of people — from their cars, from the sidewalks, from the windows of surrounding office blocks and apartment buildings — it seems none of them pointed a camera at the incident in the moments leading up to impact. There were no documentary crews in the area fortuitously to catch the event on tape and nor was the world's media in attendance. Images and footage of both the plane and the impact do however exist. As befits a building as well protected as the Pentagon it is monitored by a large number of security cameras, several of which undoubtedly captured both plane and impact. Curiously, with the exception only of five rather dubious and inconclusive CCTV frames, none of this footage has been released into the public domain.
 
I'm going to have to agree with Doc. We are being decieved systematically. People are being brainwashed, indoctrinated to accept US funded state terrorism. How can one forget the CIA funded death squads in South America? The CIA have tried to assasinate Hugo Chavez on numerous occasions! Does this not tell us something of the CIA's views on democracy? Assasinating constitutionally elected presidents. And we should not even speak of CIA's long list of assassination attempts on Cuba's president, Fidel Castro. The CIA undertake operations all over the world; all of them bloody and gory beyond comprehension. The CIA have orchestrated civil wars all over the world, one of the most devastating ones in terms of human lives is the 36-year long civil war in Guatemala. The CIA supported United Fruit Company, one of the most inhuman companies in history. The US is funding and supporting Israeli state terrorism. The following are just some of the many past massacres committed by Jewish-Zionist terrorists:

1. King David Hotel, July 22, 1946.
2. Sharafat, Feb. 7, 1951.
3. Deir Yassin, April 10, 1948.
4. Falameh, April 2, 1951.
5. Naseruddine, April 14, 1948.
6. Quibya, Oct. 14, 1953.
7. Carmel, April 20, 1948.
8. Nahalin, March, 28, 1954.
9. Al-Qabu, May 1, 1948.
10. Gaza, Feb. 28, 1955.
11. Beit Kiras, May 3, 1948.
12. Khan Yunis, May 31, 1955.
13. Beitkhoury, May 5, 1948.
14. Khan Yunis Again, Aug. 31, 1955
15. Az-Zaytoun, May 6, 1948.
16. Tiberia, Dec. 11, 1955.
17. Wadi Araba, May 13, 1950.
18. As-Sabha, Nov. 2, 1955.
19. Gaza Again, April 5, 1956.
20. Houssan, Sept. 25, 1956.
21. Rafa, Aug. 16, 1956.
22. Qalqilyah, Oct. 10, 1956.
23. Ar-Rahwa, Sept. 12, 1956.
24. Kahr Kassem, Oct. 29, 1956.
25. Gharandal, Sept. 13, 1956.

The most famous one being the bombing of The King David Hotel in Jerusalem. The Deir Yassin massacre being one of the most ruthless terrorist acts performed by Jewish-Zionist terrorists. The US have continually violated every principle of nations working together for a more peaceful world. The CIA still manipulate and organize the overthrow of functioning constitutional democracries around the world. Before the Vietnam war, the CIA organized attacks on US soldiers stationed in Vietnam, which was done to aid in their propaganda campaign against Vietnam. If Iraq had weapons of mass destruction, then where are they now? See, this also was part of the CIA's propaganda, decieving the American people to believe war is justified.

I recommend everyone to read Noam Chomsky's book "Rogue States: The Rule of Force in World Affairs", and I also recommend the book "In Search of Enemies: A CIA Story" written by John Stockwell. I have no doubt that the CIA is behind the attack on World Trade Center. The Bush family have long kept close ties with the corrupt Al-Saud family in Saudi Arabia. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is said to be a terrorist, just like Fidel Castro is said to be a terrorist; they continue to manipulate us to believe all Arabs but the rich capitalists in Saudi Arabia, Qatar and UAE are terrorists. How many enemies have the US not gained since they started their crusade against the Arab World? If the Bush administration spent some of the money they use to buy weapons on African Food Relief, and, of course organize less wars, then maybe, just maybe, they would have a lot less enemies to worry about.

If your family was brutally murdered and someone said "Come, you can help us fight the devils who did this!", then would you not side with them? This is exactly the case for many Iraqis. Almost everyone in Iraq have lost one or more persons close to them, and some have even lost their families! Today's society is being controlled by a small elite of wealthy people. I heard ExxonMobil, the world's largest publicly traded oil company, reported a record quarterly profit of $10.7 billion yesterday!
 
It is rather amazing what depths of foolishness people will ascribe to. Such fervent devotion is quite a warning as to the state of mind.

A shame their appearance is rather constant, and that they feel the urgent need to convert others. Life would be slightly improved by their absence.
 
Can someone lock this for fuck's sake? I mean, Sander, I respect what you are doing but this is utterly pointless. At least I was young and was constantly improving.

Because I believe in logic. And in physics.
And that 50 Million deaths can be justified, you subhuman shit.
 
John Uskglass said:
Can someone lock this for fuck's sake? I mean, Sander, I respect what you are doing but this is utterly pointless. At least I was young and was constantly improving.


Because I believe in logic. And in physics.
And that 50 Million deaths can be justified, you subhuman shit.

I see there are some here who dislike the nature of the discussion at hand. That's only normal. Seen it happen a hundred of times.

Now, back to the topic:
As you could have read, a certain someone by the name of 4too has made a very valid arguments against the controled demolition theory no one seems to have touched upon. Let's review them, shall we:
Namely the idea that the towers collapsed due to a inherent design flaw or material embellzement. Apparantly when the officials say that there wasn't any defects they can be trusted, when they say there was no explosives they can't.

When you think about it, a cover up of some sort of flaw in the design, the construction or the materials used (or even a combination of them) would also account for the shady behaviour and the destruction of evidence. In fact it may be one of the reasons the explosives theory is so popular as a distraction away from the real issues. Why not encourage it? If it's not true it will never been proven. Ah, circles, endless circles.

Think about it, someone, somewhere would be held liable and be responsible for billions of dollars worth of destruction, not to mention countless people's lives. Also, the crime scene was tampered with in a massive, conspiratorial manner.

Here's a more detailed link regarding the destruction of the WTC crime scene evidence:
External Source


http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/groundzero/cleanup.html

Highly Sensitive Garbage

Given that the people in charge considered the steel garbage, useless to any investigation in this age of computer simulations, they certainly took pains to make sure it didn't end up anywhere other than a smelting furnace. They installed GPS locater devices on each of the trucks that was carrying loads away from Ground Zero, at a cost of $1000 each. The securitysolutions.com website has an article on the tracking system with this passage.

"Ninety-nine percent of the drivers were extremely driven to do their jobs. But there were big concerns, because the loads consisted of highly sensitive material. One driver, for example, took an extended lunch break of an hour and a half. There was nothing criminal about that, but he was dismissed."

Shielding Investigators From the Evidence

According to FEMA, more than 350,000 tons of steel were extracted from Ground Zero and barged or trucked to salvage yards where it was cut up for recycling. Four salvage yards were contracted to process the steel.

Hugo Nue Schnitzer at Fresh Kills (FK) Landfill, Staten Island, NJ
Hugo Nue Schnitzer's Claremont (CM) Terminal in Jersey City, NJ
Metal Management in Newark (NW), NJ
Blanford and Co. in Keasbey (KB), NJ

FEMA's BPAT, who wrote the WTC Building Performance Study, were not given access to Ground Zero. Apparently, they were not even allowed to collect steel samples from the salvage yards. According to Appendix D of the Study, "Collection and storage of steel members from the WTC site was not part of the BPS Team efforts sponsored by FEMA and the American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE)."

P.S.

I apologize for my crapy style and undue brevity of my post, but the migrane is making it all to difficult to write. I'll be back when it subsides.
 
John Uskglass said:
Can someone lock this for fuck's sake? I mean, Sander, I respect what you are doing but this is utterly pointless. At least I was young and was constantly improving.

Nope.

Besides, how much would left in General Discussion if we started locking every 'pointless' thread?

Dr. Jerkoholic said:
I see there are some here who dislike the nature of the discussion at hand. That's only normal. Seen it happen a hundred of times.

Hmm? 'oh, yes, I am ever so offended by the discussion. So much, in fact, that I refuse to see reason, even with the facts you present, which of course are beyond reproach.

Actually, I was reflecting on your nature (along with a few others in this discussion), which is one of three things: a fool, a liar, or disturbed. In any case, I believe this entire topic is a reflection of some other problem in your personality. Though this is only my opinion, I won't insist it is a fact. Of course, you do seem to have all the answers and are by nature infallible (nothing cultish about that, or this discussion in general).
 
Besides, how much would left in General Discussion if we started locking every 'pointless' thread?
Humph. Good point. It's repetitive though.

Funny how with me outside of the partisan game that the fight would be between diffirent kinds of 'Lefties'. That's the future folks: insane politics against sane politics, with no distinction between Left and Right other then in name and income.
 
I, for one, am enjoying this debate, as it is providing on some good entertainment.

The basis that this conspiracy goes as deep as it can go, however, is what upsets me. We are not all part of one huge CIA operation to conquer the world and enslave humanity. Bad shit happens. There are reasonable doubts on 9/11, and intelligence agencies across the world have their fair share of dirty dealings, like that of the CIA, KGB, etc... At best, I would agree with you on the possible grounds that top CIA officials and so on knew the 9/11 attacks were going to happen. After all, the U.S. does have a history of baiting its enemies, and its own people. But I wouldn't go as far as saying that the the U.S. and Great Britain, along with a handful of other nations, are planning on taking over the world. These countries may have hostile intentions on some issues, but I seriously doubt they're brewing up Armaggedon. Hell, I mean, maybe Bush just didn't like it when Saddam fucked with his dad. And maybe, Clinton wasn't aiming at the Iraqi intelligence agency when he fired those first tomahawks. Maybe Clinton didn't like the paintings of that civilian casualty, and it wasn't an accident when a few Iraqi civilians died due to a miss. Not everything in this world is one giant conspiracy. Yes, there are unheard plots that go on in the background, but not to the extent of what you claim. The founding fathers weren't planning on the global takeover of oil fields on Earth (sounds like nonsense, but it is in relation to the "deepness" of the conspiracy you are so tuned into). When I was commenting you on your "ideological bullshit" I was refering to the your theory of a U.S. and E.U. global takeover and "enslavement" of the "survivors." It's a little far-fetched, and belongs in a movie called "Europeana." :D

I believe in logic, physics, and I also believe that, sometimes, our imaginations can get the best of us.
 
What a pity i really liked the 2 towers, it looked so cool. Why couldn't they choose something else to destroy? i mean like the statue of liberty or something like that. I wanted to visit the towers, but now its gone forever. Not mentioning the number of hard working loved ones were lost. It was the deed of evil if you ask me. :evil: :evil: :evil:
 
S said:
What a pity i really liked the 2 towers, it looked so cool. Why couldn't they choose something else to destroy? i mean like the statue of liberty or something like that.
This must be the funniest (and silliest) comment on 9/11 attacks I have ever heard.
 
In order for others less inclined to join this debate I find it necessary to make a short review of what has been heretofore presented by both sides. I have begun my argumentative discourse by pointing out a work by prof. Steven E. Jones of BYU in which he presents multiple plausible arguments that all the three WTC buildings have been brought down by calculated placement of demolition charges. The reasons why he finds this hypothesis conceivable are mainly the product of so called reduction ad absurdum deduction. Namely, he finds it almost impossible for the aforementioned buildings to have collapsed due to conflagration scenario only, as described by the official FEMA and NIST accounts. The key problem here, and the biggest unanswered question, is could have the 47 steel core columns be heated to sufficient temperatures (calculated to be at least 800°C) for them to buckle under weight in a manner required for the progressive collapse to take place. It has been proven that the only requirement for the onset of progressive collapse is that at least half the steel core columns of a single floor are to be sufficiently weakened by the fires (for them to suffer a decrease of yield strength and exhibit significant viscoplastic deformation) for creep buckling to occur, which consequently results in the columns losing their load carrying capacity. (See the gif below) Once this happens the weight of the upper part of the structure above this floor can no longer be supported, and so the upper part starts falling down onto the lower part below the critical floor, gathering speed until it impacts the lower part. At that moment, the upper part has acquired an enormous kinetic energy and a significant downward velocity. The vertical impact of the mass of the upper part onto the lower part applies enormous vertical dynamic load on the underlying structure, far exceeding its load capacity, even if it is not heated. This causes failure of an underlying multi-floor segment of the tower, in which the failure of the connections of the floor-carrying trusses to the columns is either accompanied or quickly followed by buckling of the core columns and overall buckling of the framed tube, with the buckles probably spanning the height of many floors, and the upper part possibly getting wedged inside an emptied lower part of the framed tube. The buckling is initially plastic but quickly leads to fracture in the plastic hinges. The part of building lying beneath is then impacted again by an even larger mass falling with a greater velocity, and the series of impacts and failures then proceeds all the way down.

figure1.gif


This begs the question why did all the three buildings collapse in the same manner? If one building can be shown to have collapsed in the proposed manner, how probable is it that all three would collapse the same way (with having in mind the asymmetric nature of their relative damage)?

Dr. Thomas Eagar, professor of materials engineering and engineering systems at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology asserts that he was at first surprised the buildings collapsed at all, as were most structural engineers he knew. The only people he knew who weren't surprised were a few people who've designed high-rise buildings, whose names he would not disclose. And yet these buildings were designed to withstand an impact of the type of aircraft that had led to their demise. So we are to conclude that the designers had a change of heart after the planes hit, suddenly realizing the scenario they had designed the towers to survive would now cause them collapse? Was it seeing the smoke? -- "Holy ____ I forgot to factor in the fuel load!!!" With this in mind it’s hardly surprising why the designers refused to hand over the blueprints.

No one here seems to have addressed the controlled demolition theory in sufficient detail it warrants. Namely, how could it be done without anyone noticing (when would they have had been planted)? How much explosives of what nature were to be used? What were the risks involved (that the explosives would detonate prematurely, or would not detonate at all)? Why ram the planes then? Come on people, must I do all the work for you?

You could have argued that the aluminum of the planes caught fire or reacted with steel in a so called thermite reaction which could explain why there has been found weeks after the collapse red hot (and orange-light yellow hot) steel debris.

The products of the reaction emerge as liquids due to the high temperatures reached (with iron (III) oxide, up to 2500°C (4500°F)— although the actual temperature reached depends on how quickly heat can escape to the surrounding environment. Thermite contains its own supply of oxygen, and does not require any external source such as air. Consequently, it cannot be smothered and may ignite in any environment, given sufficient initial heat. It will burn just as well while underwater, for example, and cannot even be extinguished with water, as water sprayed on a thermite reaction will instantly be boiled into steam.

That's what demolished the British destroyer Sheffield in the Falklands War, when it was struck by an Argentinian missile.. It wasn't the Exocet missile that destroyed the superstructure of the Sheffield. The missile wasn't big enough, just like the plane wasn't big enough to bring down the World Trade Center. That Exocet missile did damage the Sheffield, but what doomed the Sheffield was the aluminum superstructure caught fire and burned. So you suddenly had something like 1,000 or 10,000 times as much fuel as you had in that Exocet missile.

There’s always the argument that the building itself was ill designed or ill constructed. The nature of its construction we will probably never know, since all the possibly incriminating material has been hauled away to China where it was melted. As for the design, we know that the towers represented a new approach to skyscraper design in that they were to be very lightweight and involved modular construction methods in order to accelerate the schedule and to reduce the costs.

Each tower was 64 m square, standing 411 m above street level and 21 m below grade. This produces a height-to-width ratio of 6.8. The total weight of the structure was roughly 500,000 t, but wind load, rather than the gravity load, dominated the design. The building is a huge sail that must resist a 225 km/h hurricane. It was designed to resist a wind load of 2 kPa—a total of lateral load of 5,000 t.

In order to make each tower capable of withstanding this wind load, the architects selected a lightweight “perimeter tube” design consisting of 244 exterior columns of 36 cm square steel box section on 100 cm centers. This permitted windows more than one-half meter wide. Inside this outer tube there was a 27 m × 40 m core, which was designed to support the weight of the tower. It also housed the elevators, the stairwells, and the mechanical risers and utilities. Web joists 80 cm tall connected the core to the perimeter at each story. In addition to the web joists ("trusses") there must have been steel I-beams to transfer the lateral forces due to wind loading between the outer wall and core structures, which none of the official reports seems to mention.

Concrete slabs were poured over these joists to form the floors. In essence, the building is an egg-crate construction that is about 95 percent air, explaining why the rubble after the collapse was only a few stories high.
The egg-crate construction made a redundant structure (i.e., if one or two columns were lost, the loads would shift into adjacent columns and the building would remain standing). Prior to the World Trade Center with its lightweight perimeter tube design, most tall buildings contained huge columns on 5 m centers and contained massive amounts of masonry carrying some of the structural load. The WTC was primarily a lightweight steel structure; however, its 244 perimeter columns made it “one of the most redundant and one of the most resilient” skyscrapers. Or did it?

What about other high rise steel buildings? Are they all now fire hazard?

Don't you believe that an event as important as this warrants a thorough, systematic and scientific aproach, one we have all been denied?

If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it."

"The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State."

-- Joseph Goebbels, German Minister of Propaganda, 1933-1945
 
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