Sorrow
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
There were Zombies in Fallout.
Todd answers 25 questions
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So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Sorrow said:
No there weren't, mindless violent Ghouls perhaps but not dead that had come back to life.
Jidai Geki
It Wandered In From the Wastes
I don't get the big fuss about the loss of text descriptions. They are utterly superfluous in this day and age, and they were used in the past out of necessity. In Fallout, you had about ten different character models for men and even less for women, and the only way to differentiate between them, a lot of the time, was by using a text box. I'd much rather take unique-looking individuals over two identical ones whom I have identify via text.
Comparing an early 80's text-based adventure or RPG to the likes of, say, Bioshock, is like comparing a chariot to a supercar. They both do the same thing, it's just that one does it faster and in a hell of a lot more style.
EDIT- Yes, I know they're completely different games in terms of genre, I'm referring to the method in which they convey the look and feel of the environment of the game to the player.
Comparing an early 80's text-based adventure or RPG to the likes of, say, Bioshock, is like comparing a chariot to a supercar. They both do the same thing, it's just that one does it faster and in a hell of a lot more style.
EDIT- Yes, I know they're completely different games in terms of genre, I'm referring to the method in which they convey the look and feel of the environment of the game to the player.
I'll take unique text-described NPC's that happen to share the same graphic model over bland, generic, single-voice NPCs, anytime, thank you. Talk about style. Again this is obviously not about day and age (moreso of workload needed to assemble character models that are "unique" as you put it, and "varied" as you should have pu it) but about the level of attention put into every single one. If you feel the same amount of information can be easily conveyed by graphic only, or with minimum text, go on, but I doubt it.
Jidai Geki said:
I don't mind fancy graphics. I don't even think removing text descriptions is necessarily lazy. In fact, Beth doing this is probably a good thing. I love text descriptions when they offer something more than a cursory depiction. Does anyone think Beth are really capable of this? "You see a chair. It's not four pixels high anymore...LOL!"
I haven't played Bioshock yet, but I sincerely doubt that it could ever be as entertaining to me as Zork. Some people, like myself, love reading in video games...even if that's all there is to one. It's just our taste.
Oh...and a bit of advice. Try not to use that "they were used before because they had to!" argument very frequently, as it's often untrue and merely born from a personal bias.
Jidai Geki
It Wandered In From the Wastes
Obviously the NPC's of Oblivion are no better, with their unrealistic facial expressions and generic voices, but Bethsoft have stated that there is a much smaller number of NPC's in Fallout and that they are working to make them as unique as possible.
The old cliché "a picture is worth a thousand words" is a cliché for a reason. Now, I don't dislike text-based games, and I enjoy reading, but I simply feel that text-based games were derived from simple limitations of the day. Fallout's limitations were in its generic character models and (mostly) generic buildings; this was worked around with the use of text. Yes, it was humorous in some parts, but I don't think it's entirely necessary.
A great many things are born from a personal bias. It's called an "opinion".
Sorrow
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
No. I don't know if you have noticed, but Fallout was one of the few RPG games of that time that used text descriptions of objects on large scale.Jidai Geki said:
Baldur's Gate, Planescape: Torment, Icewind Dale, Baldur's Gate 2, Icewind Dale 2, Arcanum, ToEE, etc. didn't use them.
It had nothing to do with limitations and a lot to do with the PnP flavour.
requiem_for_a_starfury
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Having text descriptions prevents any misunderstandings. Even with the best graphics in the world people might not recognise something. Whether because they've never heard of something before and wouldn't know it to look at it, or they don't recognise it out of context, or even if it's design changes from country to country.
And the most glorious depicted rock isn't going to draw you into a game as much as a well written description.
And the most glorious depicted rock isn't going to draw you into a game as much as a well written description.
Jidai Geki said:
With no due hostility, I'll believe it when I see it - pun certainly intended
FeelTheRads
Vault Senior Citizen
It's not only Oblivion. In fact Oblivion is not even the worst. Since I've recently played Jade Empire, at the moment that one takes the cake as being absolutely vomitous.
I'd say there are thousands of novels that succeed where all graphic games fail.
Can it be done in a graphic game with no help from a text description? No. Never.
Can it be made to look at least decent. Yes.
It is done often? No, because it's easier to blind the player with bloom, shaders, flanders, benders...
Cmon now guy, we all know that books rely on introspection and imagination, and pictures do not.
Sure, a picture is worth a thousand words, but not ANY thousand, only a select few descriptive words. nothing about non visual sense experience.
Sight can not and will not ever convey the feeling of touch/smell/taste/personality or really anything else with depth as well your own imagination can, and words are just the language of imagination.
The more vivid something is, the less the imagination reaches for that little extra bit, and stumbles into those lovely sensations that a picture cant convey.
Sure, a picture is worth a thousand words, but not ANY thousand, only a select few descriptive words. nothing about non visual sense experience.
Sight can not and will not ever convey the feeling of touch/smell/taste/personality or really anything else with depth as well your own imagination can, and words are just the language of imagination.
The more vivid something is, the less the imagination reaches for that little extra bit, and stumbles into those lovely sensations that a picture cant convey.
Jidai Geki
It Wandered In From the Wastes
Really? I thought Jade Empire was a good game.
In terms of conveying emotion- there simply aren't all that many games that deal with emotion on a very deep level. Even if the graphics do not manage to convey it, decent voice acting can.
A blatantly hyperbolic assessment of the situation. Even now, purely visual games are beginning to provoke an emotional reaction in gamers- to cite a game you didn't like, in Jade Empire I found playing the 'evil' path somewhat difficult at times because of the way it required you to fuck over children or innocents, and several gamers have found offing Little Sisters in Bioshock to be quite difficult.
Are we at the stage where we are truly invested in gaming characters to the point where we will be sad if they die? Probably not. Will it happen? Absolutely. The industry is evolving and becoming more cinematic, and just as cinema can elicit an emotional response from its audience, so too will video games.
FeelTheRads
Vault Senior Citizen
I thought it was a very weak and shallow game, but I wasn't talking about that. I was talking about the expressions the characters have.
Why did everybody in that game had to lower the corners of their mouth in that horrific fashion? But then again that was the only "emotion" the characters seemed to have in that game. No smiles or anything else. And the voice acting didn't do anything as it was bland and sometimes downright bad.
Yeah, typical Bioware crap. They couldn't write a decent evil path (not that the good path is a diamond in the shit-bucket) if their life depended on it. Apparently if you're evil it's necessary to talk like an idiot and orgasm when a kid gets eviscerated. Otherwise, what kind of evil person are you?
Hey, it's right there, in Bioware's games. Makes me wanna believe it.
Briosafreak
Lived Through the Heat Death
That still puzzles me too.
Jidai Geki said:
wow what games are you comparing it to exactly?
I mean, you know, good IS a relative statement insomuch that something cannot be 'good' without the requisite antithesis.
Gimme an example of what games would be just better, and also just worse.
how bout a 1 - 10 scale?
is this good in the sense that "it didnt make you want to murder your family" or good in the sense that "it could be worse"?
Jidai Geki
It Wandered In From the Wastes
Fair enough, though John Cleese's voice work was stellar and Brian Doyle Murray turned in a decent performance. Yes, the facial expressions weren't great, but I'm obviously not as much of a perfectionist as you are. The storyline was very good, with a nice twist, and the combat was satisfying if a little repetitive. The world itself was fairly original.
I agree to some extent. My main problem with Jade Empire's 'evil' path was that it was touted as being something other than evil, more of a Darwinistic survival-of-the-fittest mentality, when in fact it just ended up being an exercise in traumatising children and being an arsehole to any NPC's you encountered.
It was better than, for instance, pretty much any movie licence video game and the vast majority of WWII FPS clones. Were I to review it I would give it 8.5/10. It had a compelling storyline, decent graphics for its time, and as stated the combat mechanics were satisfying enough. It was also a decent length, though very linear. But hey, not every game can be a sandbox game.
*sigh* This "opinion" thing is getting more and more pathetic.
"I like CRPGs more than FPS games"- that's an opinion
"They put text descriptions in FO because of limitations"- that's bullshit, not opinion.
I bet if not interviews with people like Boyarsky people still would be saying "they did iso and tb because of financial and techonological limitations".
"I like CRPGs more than FPS games"- that's an opinion
"They put text descriptions in FO because of limitations"- that's bullshit, not opinion.
I bet if not interviews with people like Boyarsky people still would be saying "they did iso and tb because of financial and techonological limitations".
whirlingdervish
Brahmin Cavalry Commander
Jidai Geki said:
that brings things into perspective.
Could you kindly describe for me a game that was a movie-knockoff, or a generic/played-out ww2 FPS game, that WASNT COMPLETE SHIT?
That's like saying Jade Empire smelled better than burning feces.
Considering the fact that the only examples you could come up with are both famous descriptions of games that real gamers (PC gamers that are older than 14 yrs old) would place in the 1.5 out of 10 range, and that neither of them are RPG style games, you might want to stop now before you alienate the rest of us completely.
You can't compare rotten apples to oranges and expect it to be relevant.