Trump wins

Lmao Walpknut vs Anime avatars

Anyway I do think Vergil did take it too far in some instances. Its rather obvious he was pretty deep into the Neo Nazi edglelord ideology. (He seemed to like my Aryan/Iranian identity too much) He sounded a lot like someone you would meet on fucking rpg codex.

I'm sure he said a lot of things purely for shits n giggles, I know I can sometimes say something purely as a joke. But it be nice if we could refrain from calling people faggots and denying the holocaust.
 
Am I happy about this? Yes and no... the biggest Nazi supporter here is gone, meaning that as the biggest Stalin supporter I would be next...
 
I realize Vergil was an interesting poster to have around, but calling people retards, faggots, niggers, and slants every other post, and denying the Holocaust is all stuff that eventually gets you banned. Vergil received numerous warnings too before he was banned. I even saw that one of his IP's was being used by another user, possibly a friend or relative at his house, messaging him personally asking him about it and giving him a heads up to be careful. Even when he said racist shit, often I tried to ignore it, but a few times I gave him a verbal warning just to know he was crossing the boundaries.

Sorry to say, but you have had a few anger spells yourself. Like this gem from September:

Do any of you twats know what the hell you are talking about from your eurofag hostels on the other side of the world? Trump is a xenophobic pandermonster who can't keep his fucking mouth shut long enough to win the presidency much less force Mexico to build a useless wall. Anyone who thinks Trump is qualified to do half the shit he says he will should kindly kill themselves to purify the gene pool.

You just called people fags right there, not to mention telling people who believe in Trump's ideals to kill themselves. Not to be mean but you're an Admin now despite saying things like this while he's banned. Is this not the same sort of stuff Vergil was banned for? You can say you aren't calling out specific people all you want, but it's pretty clear who you're talking about. Popularity shouldn't omit him from the rules but at the same time he really hasn't broken it more than anyone else. I can dig up quotes from pretty much every single person here saying a slur or something-another more than likely.

"For clarity's sake: Vergil wasn't banned for the joke in this thread. He was banned for spamming Sieg Heil, Hitler Jugend & Swastikas in profile posts, although he already received 2 prior warnings to watch his behavior. If saying "Sieg Heil" or whatever is a retort to some joke or an attempt at being funny in a certain context, that's totally fine by me. But randomly spamming it in other people's profile etc is just stupid if you were already warned before." - @SuAside

^ That right there is what Vergil was specifically banned for according to another Admin, and as we already established, Vergil WAS doing it was a retort and as a joke on Crossfire's profile, because they're friends and they make Nazi jokes with one another. Maybe a little distasteful but that's the humor they're into, it didn't happen on a public forum and it certainly didn't happen on the profile of someone Vergil is enemies with.

For that matter, in regards to "Holocaust Denial", is this what you're referring to?

You know Hitler actually was a good leader that did do some great things for Germany which at the time many countries were going through the depression.

Ok sure he may have gassed a few Jews but you can't always look at the bad.


I think we should all take a moment of silence to remember the 7 million.

Because he's clearly saying that SARCASTICALLY in response to Serifan's post. That doesn't = him believing the Holocaust didn't happen.
 
No, Vergil has indeed argued that the Holocaust is fake. He's offered long post of 'evidence' to support it and argued against others about it. Sorry, but Vergil does indeed think the Holocaust is fake.
 
No, Vergil has indeed argued that the Holocaust is fake. He's offered long post of 'evidence' to support it and argued against others about it. Sorry, but Vergil does indeed think the Holocaust is fake.

Well silly me, I thought we needed actual evidence to back up our claims. Here I am digging through months-old threads to find quotes and point out why Vergil being banned is silly, but apparently we'll just take your word that he posted tons of evidence showing he denied the Holocaust. Could you actually find some of that? I'm most curious to see it.

Because I remember him arguing about the Holocaust too, but I remember him arguing that Holocaust deniers should not be jailed. He was basically saying that people should not be thrown in jail for denying the Holocaust because what's the point in that? All it does is give Holocaust deniers an edge. They'll look at the people being thrown in jail for denouncing the Holocaust and say "Oh, well look! People are being thrown in jail instead of debated or given an explanation as to how the Holocaust happened! Clearly we're right!" It's along the same lines as how people will constantly call deniers of Global Warming "retarded" and dismiss their claims entirely instead of actually having a debate. It just leads to more denial. The evidence he posted was meant to show how it's stupid to jail people for simply asking questions and having concerns about a big controversial issue like this.
 
That right there is what Vergil was specifically banned for according to another Admin, and as we already established, Vergil WAS doing it was a retort and as a joke on Crossfire's profile, because they're friends and they make Nazi jokes with one another. Maybe a little distasteful but that's the humor they're into, it didn't happen on a public forum and it certainly didn't happen on the profile of someone Vergil is enemies with.
Was there any possibility for Suaside to actually know that it was some kind of 'joke' between those two? Particularly when Verge received already 2 warnings?

Like other users already said, yes, pretty much everyone who's been long enough on NMA, had times where he had some kind of 'rage post', maybe even throwing one or two insults around - The Order doesn't count though, it's clearly not NMA territory. And yes, many of us got a nudge by the mods in such cases, that we should cool down and watch our words. Seriously, this topic alone, had Hass posting it TWICE(!) to tone it down. The point is, when you get repeated warnings, then it simply might happen that you get ... banned, I know, a novell idea banning people on a forum! But that's how it goes. This is not a democracy. And strange enough, this isn't the first time such a discussion pops up. Omg! The moderators are fascist bastards for opressing free speech! You know, the trick is to know that when you crossed a line, that you should really start to calm down and actually start to become a member of this community, that is contributing more then just assholery. Some people can do it, some can't. And I am actually not surprised that a lot of 'new members', struggle with this concept and defend Vergil.

At this point, I really understand why most forums have this policy, that bans are not discussed like this, someone always feels that it's not 'fair. If you people feel that a mistake happend here, why not taking it to the moderators directly? Personal messages do exist. Star a conversation, invite Planhex, Sua and who ever else you think has a part into this, and see how it goes.
 
Well silly me, I thought we needed actual evidence to back up our claims. Here I am digging through months-old threads to find quotes and point out why Vergil being banned is silly, but apparently we'll just take your word that he posted tons of evidence showing he denied the Holocaust. Could you actually find some of that? I'm most curious to see it.

Because I remember him arguing about the Holocaust too, but I remember him arguing that Holocaust deniers should not be jailed. He was basically saying that people should not be thrown in jail for denying the Holocaust because what's the point in that? All it does is give Holocaust deniers an edge. They'll look at the people being thrown in jail for denouncing the Holocaust and say "Oh, well look! People are being thrown in jail instead of debated or given an explanation as to how the Holocaust happened! Clearly we're right!" It's along the same lines as how people will constantly call deniers of Global Warming "retarded" and dismiss their claims entirely instead of actually having a debate. It just leads to more denial. The evidence he posted was meant to show how it's stupid to jail people for simply asking questions and having concerns about a big controversial issue like this.
You're right, Vergil never outright stated he believed in Holocaust denial, and he did argue that jailing people who didn't believe in the Holocaust was stupid (I agree on that count), but he also argued for Holocaust denial because he thought that it had large gaps and wasn't clear cut as people think. This seems pretty innocent, and personally I think it is, buuuuut it looks very convenient for a Holocaust denier to peddle their beliefs WITHOUT being outright banned because the 'disclaimer' that they don't believe it and it's just food for thought... Here's the quote and here's a link to the page http://www.nma-fallout.com/threads/wheee-i-can-move-posts-around.207794/page-2.
History Books written by the victors are what everyone is taught in school.
Visiting the camps show hair, cloths and no mass graves.
A memorial with names isn't proof. I could have a memorial to the great spaghetti war outside right now with 100 names on it that I made up or are people who died from other causes.
The Bechenwald photos are not proof of a deliberate and systematic extermination of jews but massive deaths due to typhus towards the end of the war due to supply lines being bombed
atrobelsencorps.gif

Heres a photo of a British "liberator" shoveling bodies into a mass grave.
Those mass graves (the only ones found) are from the British dumping dead Typhus victims into.
Anne Frank's Diary's legitimacy is in question
http://www.patriot.dk/nurnberg1.html
http://www.patriot.dk/nurnberg2.html
http://www.vho.org/aaargh/fran/livres3/CPeng.pdf

So far these proofs have been refuted with no answers, at least none that have been brought to my attention.
A few other questions and things I'd like to mention.

Why did Elie Wiesel and countless other Jews survive the Holocaust if it was the intention of the Third Reich to eliminate every Jew? Elie was a prisoner for several years; other Jews survived even longer. Most of these “survivors” were ordinary people who did not have any unique expertise that the Germans could have exploited. There was no logical reason for them to be kept alive if the goal was extermination. The very existence of more than a million survivors even today, some sixty years later, contradicts one of the basic components of the Holocaust; i.e. that the Germans had a policy to eliminate every Jew.

Why is there no mention of the Holocaust in Churchill’s six volume History of the Second World War, the wartime memoirs of either De Gaulle or Eisenhower, or any of the other lesser luminaries who wrote about the Second World War? Keep in mind all these were written years after the war ended and thus after the Holocaust had been allegedly proven by the Nuremberg Trials. With regard to the Holocaust, the silence of these “cognoscenti” is deafening!

What was an inmate infirmary (and a brothel) doing in Auschwitz if in fact it was a death camp?

Why would the Germans round up Jews from their far-flung empire (thereby tying up large numbers of personnel and rolling stock, while fighting a world war on two fronts) to deliver people to “death camps” hundreds of miles away to simply execute them upon arrival? Wouldn’t a bullet on the spot have appealed to the legendary German sense of efficiency?

Why, after seventy years, have historians been unable to come up with a single German document that points to the Holocaust? Should we believe the likes of Raul Hilberg that in the place of written orders there was an “incredible meeting of the minds” by the literally tens of thousands of people who would have had to coordinate their actions in order to carry out an undertaking of this magnitude?

Why is is still insisted upon that six million Jews were killed when the official Jewish death toll at Auschwitz, the flagship of the Holocaust gulag, has been reduced from an immediate post-war figure of 4 million to a figure of less than 1 million?

All of Germany’s wartime codes were compromised, including the one used to send daily reports from Auschwitz to Berlin. The transcripts of these messages make no mention of mass executions or even remotely suggest a genocidal program in progress. Furthermore, it has been insisted that the Germans used a kind of euphemistic code when discussing their extermination program of the Jews–e.g. “final solution”, special treatment, resettlement, etc. Why was it necessary for them to use such coded euphemisms when talking to one another unless they thought their codes had been cracked by the Allies? And then why would they still use cracked codes?

The water table at Auschwitz lies a mere 18 inches below the surface, which makes claims of huge burning pits for the disposal of tens of thousands of victims untenable.

Initially, claims were made that mass executions in homicidal gas chambers had taken place in camps located within the boundaries of the old Reich (e.g. Dachau, Bergen-Belsen). “Evidence” to that effect was every bit as compelling as what is offered for other camps–located in occupied Poland–yet without explanation in the early sixties we were told that this was not the case and that all the “death camps” were located in the East (i.e. Poland), outside (some would say conveniently) the probing eyes of western scholars.

No one has been able to reconcile the eyewitness accounts that personnel entered the gas chambers after 20 minutes without any protective gear, and the fact that Zyklon B was a “time release” fumigant that would have had a lethal capability for at least another 24 hours. And that even after 24 hours the corpses would have themselves remained sufficiently contaminated by the hydrogen cyanide gas that they would have had the capacity to kill anyone who touched them who was not wearing protective gear.

Why do we no longer hear claims that the Germans manufactured soap, lampshades, and riding britches from the bodies of dead Jews? Could it be that in the light of modem forensics and DNA knowledge these claims are totally untenable?

Why do we no longer hear claims that huge numbers of Jews were exterminated in massive steam chambers or electrocuted on special grids? “Evidence” of this was presented at Nuremberg–evidence that sent men to the gallows.

Elie Wiesel has been described as “the Apostle of Remembrance,” yet in his memoir, Night, which details his stay at Auschwitz, he makes no mention of the now infamous homicidal gas chambers. Isn’t this a bit like one of the Gospels making no mention of the Cross?

Virtually every survivor who was examined at Auschwitz says that he or she was examined by the infamous Dr. Mengele.

According to survivor testimony, hundreds of thousands of Jews were executed at Treblinka and then buried in mass graves in the surrounding area. Why is it that extensive sonar probing of these burial grounds reveals that this alleged final resting place for Holocaust victims has remained undisturbed since at least the last ice age?

“Proof” of the Holocaust rests primarily on survivor testimony. There is little, if any, hard evidence. The best of this has been described by Jean Claude Pressac as merely “criminal traces.” Even Judge Grey who presided at the Irving-Lipstadt Trial commented that he was surprised the evidence pointing to the Holocaust was “extremely thin.” To paraphrase Arthur Butz, “a crime of this magnitude would have left a mountain of evidence.” Where is it? There was more hard evidence against O. J. Simpson at his trial and he was found innocent.

Why has Holocaust revisionism been criminalized in at least eleven countries? What other historic truth needs the threat of prison or the destruction of one’s career to maintain itself? Should someone be sent to prison for expressing skepticism about the official Chinese claim that they suffered 35 million dead in World War II?

Why do the court historians insist that “denying the Holocaust” is like denying slavery or saying the Earth is flat? The leading Revisionists are first rate scholars who hold advanced degrees from the world’s leading universities. Is there anyone comparable among those who say the world is flat or that slavery never existed? Notice again that it is not illegal to say the Earth is flat or that slavery never existed. The truth of these things does not seem to need legal protection.

Promoters of the Holocaust have expressed concerns about remembering the Holocaust once the last survivors die. Why haven’t Civil War historians expressed similar concerns since the last survivor of that conflict died in 1959?

Survivors of the Holocaust have testified that smoke billowed from the crematoriums as they consumed the bodies of murdered victims–some eyewitnesses even claimed they could detect national origins by the color of the smoke. How can this be reconciled with the fact that properly operating crematoriums do not produce smoke of any color?

According to the official version of the Holocaust, hundreds of thousands of Hungarian Jews were rounded up in mid-1944 and sent to Auschwitz, where most were gassed immediately upon arrival and their bodies were disposed of by burning in huge open air pits using railroad ties and gasoline. Why is that there is no evidence of these huge funerary pyres in the high resolution surveillance photos taken by Allied aircraft overflying the camp on a daily basis during this time period? Furthermore, why have no remains been found, since open pit burning, even when gasoline is used, generates insufficient heat to totally consume a body?

All of the liberated camps were littered with corpses; is there a single autopsy report or any other forensic evidence that shows that even a single one of these deaths was a consequence of poison gas?

The death toll for the Holocaust relies exclusively on population statistics provided by Jewish sources; has any independent demographic study been produced that shows that approximately six million Jews were “missing” at the end of the war?

Why do the wartime inspection reports of camps made by the International Red Cross contain no references to mass executions? It strains credulity that such monumental crimes could be hidden. The only explanations are that either these crimes were not occurring or that the Red Cross was complicit in a cover up.

Why has there been no effort to respond to the Leuchter Report?

“The Holocaust was technologically possible because it happened.” Why is this intellectually bankrupt argument, which turns scholarship on its head, considered by the promoters of the Holocaust as historical truth, and considered a sufficient response to the mounting Revisionist evidence to the contrary?

What other historical truths rely to the extent that the Holocaust does on so-called “eyewitness” testimony, and why have none of these witnesses ever been cross-examined?

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NOW WAIT JUST A MINUTE BEFORE YOU RESPOND!

I'm not saying I necessarily believe all of this, I'm just saying theres a lot of questions and gaps for some reasonable doubt and making it illegal to ask these questions and criminalizing curiosity does nothing but breed more distrust and a further affirmation that the denier is right. This policy of censorship does absolutely no good to either side of the argument.

Also if a mod wants to move this it's own thread go ahead but I've pretty much said my piece on this.
 
You're right, Vergil never outright stated he believed in Holocaust denial, and he did argue that jailing people who didn't believe in the Holocaust was stupid (I agree on that count), but he also argued for Holocaust denial because he thought that it had large gaps and wasn't clear cut as people think. This seems pretty innocent, and personally I think it is, buuuuut it looks very convenient for a Holocaust denier to peddle their beliefs WITHOUT being outright banned because the 'disclaimer' that they don't believe it and it's just food for thought... Here's the quote and here's a link to the page

Normally I would agree, but he is literally using all of that evidence to show that there's a lot of stuff out there that can potentially support denying the Holocaust. We shouldn't be locking people up for pointing these out, it needs to be the job of places like the Holocaust Memorial Foundation to expound on these big chunks of evidence and disprove them. Locking people up isn't helping anything. Which is exactly what I said he was arguing. Here's the disclaimer he put at the end in full:

"NOW WAIT JUST A MINUTE BEFORE YOU RESPOND!

I'm not saying I necessarily believe all of this, I'm just saying theres a lot of questions and gaps for some reasonable doubt and making it illegal to ask these questions and criminalizing curiosity does nothing but breed more distrust and a further affirmation that the denier is right. This policy of censorship does absolutely no good to either side of the argument.

Also if a mod wants to move this it's own thread go ahead but I've pretty much said my piece on this." -Vergil

Ergo, he DOES believe in the Holocaust, but he's saying there's a lot of proof out there for the opposition to use, and that it needs to be addressed rather than throwing the people who espouse it in a cell to rot, which just breeds more deniers. Just because he did his homework doesn't make him a denier, it makes him smart for trying to see both sides of the issue.
 
Yes I know, it shows that Vergil doesn't necessarily support Holocaust denial, but one can make a reasonable hypothesis guessing that perhaps Vergil does support Holocaust denial and uses the disclaimer to argue for his beliefs without being banned. Vergil should clear it all up when he returns.
 
Sorry to say, but you have had a few anger spells yourself. Like this gem from September:

You just called people fags right there, not to mention telling people who believe in Trump's ideals to kill themselves. Not to be mean but you're an Admin now despite saying things like this while he's banned. Is this not the same sort of stuff Vergil was banned for? You can say you aren't calling out specific people all you want, but it's pretty clear who you're talking about. Popularity shouldn't omit him from the rules but at the same time he really hasn't broken it more than anyone else. I can dig up quotes from pretty much every single person here saying a slur or something-another more than likely.

Absolutely. I've been temp-banned years ago for posting stupid shit (and called a pussy by Brother None for complaining about the admins) too, now I try to keep spambots from face-fucking our monitors and keep this place alive any little way I can, including Black Market organ deals and Nigerian Slum Lord Email scams. I've been on NMA since I was 18, so I have quite the history and Suaside himself didn't want my ass on the Admin team due to my potential volatility (Roshambo reincarnated), but I do see reason. I care about this place a lot, and I generally like to get along with people whether they agree or not.

I wasn't angry at anyone in particular in that comment though, nor wanting people to literally kill themselves - which I think some might interpret from my delivery if they don't know me. Also I didn't mean faggot as in denigrating homosexuals (no-no), more like the 90's version I grew up with which is to say, "Hey quit being a faggot and get off my lawn."

I understand why it happened is all I am saying. There is a big difference. Using the occasional racial slur here won't get you banned, nor will having a lovers spat with a local NMA/tO butt buddy...It's repeated nonsense that does it. The problem isn't with people calling each other names really it's with unchecked belligerence/nonsense that doesn't have respect for the rules or order.
 
Regardless, most people should be wary of someone who aligns themselves so closely to Neo Nazism.

This is not an implication someone IS a Nazi or believes exactly what Nazis believe but it is concerning at most.

Also ive been pissed off on forums (im too new to NMA as a proper user for anything like that but ive been lurking on the forum for years) and sometimes say stupid or childish shit.

We all get angry, what vergil did is not like that.
 
Regardless, most people should be wary of someone who aligns themselves so closely to Neo Nazism.

This is not an implication someone IS a Nazi or believes exactly what Nazis believe but it is concerning at most.

Agreed. It's like an indicator of possible concern. If you don't want to attract attention and aren't a troll then why have a giant Nazi avatar and post nothing but nationalistic Hitler shit?
 
Agreed. It's like an indicator of possible concern. If you don't want to attract attention and aren't a troll then why have a giant Nazi avatar and post nothing but nationalistic Hitler shit?

From my experience on the inter webs and off some people legitimately believe that sorta of crap. They may back peddle abit or attempt to make it seem like a joke but deep down you can tell imo. If you probe them about certain things you can tell what they really feel deep down.
 
From my experience on the inter webs and off some people legitimately believe that sorta of crap. They may back peddle abit or attempt to make it seem like a joke but deep down you can tell imo. If you probe them about certain things you can tell what they really feel deep down.

Which is where the distinction comes into play...Are they playing a role, parroting talking points, or is there a fully functional human being in there?

My admin powers are weak or I would split this stuff too.
 
Vergil is not a Nazi, he's too moderate for the National Socialist Party but he has some sympathy to them. It's what I believe, because I really, really hope he isn't some try-hard edgy teen trying to not fit in.
 
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Absolutely. I've been temp-banned years ago for posting stupid shit

Right, exactly, for posting some stupid shit. So why exactly can't Vergil be temp-banned instead of permanently banned? Temp-banning is perfectly understandable but a perma-ban for what we've established in the last 5 pages is basically a fluke?

I wasn't angry at anyone in particular in that comment though, nor wanting people to literally kill themselves - which I think some might interpret from my delivery if they don't know me. Also I didn't mean faggot as in denigrating homosexuals (no-no), more like the 90's version I grew up with which is to say, "Hey quit being a faggot and get off my lawn."

Right, so how do you know Vergil isn't using "faggot" and things like that in this same context? "Oh, it's how I grew up with the word!" Come on Toront, that's like me saying "The word uppity isn't a racist term, where I grew up everyone I know uses it!" Which is true, and I still don't see uppity as a racist word, but guess what? The rest of America disagrees with me, and I accept that. Let's also not forget Vergil is a "faggot" himself, he's bisexual with a preference towards men.
 
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