UEFA Euro 2008 Thread

[Brother None]

GERMANY YOU CAN THANK THE REFEREE!!!

Heh.

It takes a certain kind of person to always blame the referee.

Meanwhile, anyone who isn't partial up the wazoo can see Fröjdfeldt has been the best referee on this tournament so far, not making any enormous mistakes nor losing control of the match. That's not just my opinion, that's pretty much the professional consensus. That man is a fantastic referee. The Dutch commentator spent more time talking up his good refereeing than talking up any player.

We can be thankful he led the Portuguese match. He is sharp enough to ignore the massive amount of schwalbes (and there were some ugly ones on Germany's side too, but the Portuguese in particular were in good form). The Portuguese should also be thankful, because more petulant referees, like de Blekere, would have handed out cards for some of those ridiculous schwalbes.

The funny thing is: I assume you're all referring to Ballack's push before heading it in? Guess what: no referee would have seen that. If the defender had fallen down in dramatic fashion, he might have got a clue from that, but dude went against Portuguese norm and stayed on his two feet. It was one of the subtlest fouls I've ever seen, and I don't know any referee who could've caught it.

That's not to say it's a legit goal, it wasn't, but that is to say it's ridiculous to call a referee that officiated an excellent match "bad", let alone "the worst", for making a mistake that no one else would have avoided. Besides, it's not like you'd have won automatically if it weren't for that one.

Good match. I had a blast laughing at Ronaldo. lil' shit completely lost himself in frustration and egoism.

It's good to see Germany dropping the typical ugly football again, in favour of their WC 2008 pretty form. They usually win and win ugly, but I like 'em better when they win with good football, as was the case here.

EDIT: I'm deleting the poll as obviously its results are meaningless now. Restarting with remaining Q-finalists+Germany
The NMA top:
The Netherlands [ 12 ]
Portugal [ 8 ]
Germany [ 7 ]

 

[Madbringer]

The ref made only two obvious mistakes, the one with one of the German players trampling Ronaldo's foot being the bigger one (a definite red card there). Now, Ballack *slightly* pushing away Ferreira was not so obvious, he could have whistled it, he could not. Actually, it's better for the flow of the game to not whistle those little nudges and pushes, it breaks the 'groove', making it seem like everyone is made of glass and the players (especially defenders) aren't featherweights for Christ's sake.

Don't blame the ref, who, i agree, did a pretty good job in the match, blame Ricardo and his "eeek a big man is running forward, i better stay on the line" act and Ferreira's bad positioning.

What i'd be more pissed off about is the inconsistency between the referees from match to match.

I had a twisted sense of satisfaction seeing Ronaldo crumble like a card house in a hurricane. If this failure doesn't make him realize he's not the center of the universe and that it's time to grow the hell up, i don't know what will. I'm also glad to see Deco finally find his form. Maybe not top form, but still, i expected him to not play half as good as he actually did. Guy showed a lot of heart in this tournament, it was a pleasure to see him work on the pitch. Carvalho too, he was solid as always, but that was to be expected, he's a stone cold mofo.

Germans look very strong, slightly surprising how they managed to piece themselves back after the Croatia disaster and really average Austria match. Podolski seems a strong competition for Sneijder as the man of the tournament. Ballack working hard both in offense and in defense. The pair of stoppers very, very solid, wings worked good, even the till-now averagely playing Klose seems to be picking up from his teammates.

Also looking forward to tomorrow's game. I fully expect it to be the most physical match so far in the tournament, i'll be surprised if there won't be at least one red in it.

 

[Brother None]

The ref made only two obvious mistakes, the one with one of the German players trampling Ronaldo's foot being the bigger one (a definite red card there).

Aye, I agree, dirty foul.

Though it's not the ref that should've seen that, it's his linesman, he was standing pretty close to it. How the hell he missed it is beyond me, the linesmen that work with Fröjdfeldt are usually pretty good (as our commentator noted; it's a really good team, and "a referee gets the linesmen he deserves")

Now, Ballack *slightly* pushing away Ferreira was not so obvious, he could have whistled it, he could not. Actually, it's better for the flow of the game to not whistle those little nudges and pushes, it breaks the flow of the game, and the players (especially defenders) aren't featherweights for Christ's sake.

Remember, the refs are supposed to be extra strict on pushing and shoving during dead game moments now. No one except Howard Webb has done so, so far, and he's got death threats for it.

Don't blame the ref, who, i agree, did a pretty good job in the match, blame Ricardo and his "eeek a big man is running forward, i better stay on the line" act and Ferreira's bad positioning.

I was surprised how much difficult Portugal had getting the ball moving, especially in the first half when Podolski left the entire right side open for abuse.

What i'd be more pissed off about is the inconsistency between the referees from match to match.

That's kind of inevitable in championships. One country sends a pedant, like Belgium's de Bleekere, the other sends an extreme-rule-is-rule-dude, like England's Webber, the other sends a "just let the game go and only interfere when necessary" like Fröjdfeldt.

Sadly we don't have an army of Fröjdfeldts. I prefer his type of referee over any other type.

Germans look very strong, slightly surprising how they managed to piece themselves back after the Croatia disaster and really average Austria match. Podolski seems a strong competition for Sneijder as the man of the tournament.

That would be a mistake. Podolski was pretty bad this match, because he's not much of a winger who can also defend, but that's the task he got anyway. Schweinsteiger did better of it.

Anyway, taking out Gomez made sense, but Low appears to have changed the system to move Schweinsteiger into a retreated right wing position, Podolski in a forward left wing, thus make a kind of 4-3-3 with Ballack roaming fairly free behind Klose. It worked, but the defense still doesn't look that good.

Lehmann is looking better than the first few matches. Still not very good, but better.

 

[ZiggyMeister]

GERMANY YOU CAN THANK THE REFEREE!!!

Heh.

It takes a certain kind of person to always blame the referee.

Meanwhile, anyone who isn't partial up the wazoo can see Fröjdfeldt has been the best referee on this tournament so far, not making any enormous mistakes nor losing control of the match. That's not just my opinion, that's pretty much the professional consensus. That man is a fantastic referee. The Dutch commentator spent more time talking up his good refereeing than talking up any player.

We can be thankful he led the Portuguese match. He is sharp enough to ignore the massive amount of schwalbes (and there were some ugly ones on Germany's side too, but the Portuguese in particular were in good form). The Portuguese should also be thankful, because more petulant referees, like de Blekere, would have handed out cards for some of those ridiculous schwalbes.

The funny thing is: I assume you're all referring to Ballack's push before heading it in? Guess what: no referee would have seen that. If the defender had fallen down in dramatic fashion, he might have got a clue from that, but dude went against Portuguese norm and stayed on his two feet. It was one of the subtlest fouls I've ever seen, and I don't know any referee who could've caught it.

That's not to say it's a legit goal, it wasn't, but that is to say it's ridiculous to call a referee that officiated an excellent match "bad", let alone "the worst", for making a mistake that no one else would have avoided. Besides, it's not like you'd have won automatically if it weren't for that one.
(...)

I never said the referee made a bad job, but I'm not saying he did a good job either... German players deserved a lot more cards than the 2 yellow ones they got, mainly on the first half.
I also don't think he was the worst referee I have seen in the last few days, that prize goes to the Austrian guy, together with his team, that whistled Switzerland: 2 X Portugal: 0. That was really the worst referee I saw in a long, long time... Because I really don't watch small leagues football!
And yes, I was speaking of Ballack's foul on Paulo Ferreira, and I disagree with you, I think that a referee at the level of this match should/must had seen and sanctioned it.

(...)
Actually, it's better for the flow of the game to not whistle those little nudges and pushes, it breaks the 'groove', making it seem like everyone is made of glass and the players (especially defenders) aren't featherweights for Christ's sake.

Don't blame the ref, who, i agree, did a pretty good job in the match, blame Ricardo and his "eeek a big man is running forward, i better stay on the line" act and Ferreira's bad positioning.
(...)

The referee must sanction those kind of fouls, specially if they can influence the outcome of a match, i.e.: fouls that enable goals, or fouls that are penalties.
You can blame Ricardo all that you want, the 2nd goal from Germany is part his fault, but don't blame him for the 3rd one that was achieved after a clearly visible foul, although he was badly beaten, the goal should never been validated by the referee. And surely don't blame Paulo Ferreira bad positioning, he had won the position until Ballack pushed him away. Or didn't you saw the same match I saw? Or your TV set doesn't show the replay, where you can see that clearly?

 

[horse]

i guess there was some kind of standing order to put some respect into ronaldo. at least, in my active soccer times we did that. a team with a good stuermer > the stuermer WILL receive one or more ugly fouls. that definitely slowed them down and made them less agile.

anyway, the referee overlooked some fouls on both sides. the ballack "foul" was very artfully done - that feller knows when to foul and how.

otoh, it is quite normal for the german team to suck in the first games and then go through the roof. or maybe well get kicked out in the half finals. great euro til now, everythings quite open.

sad thing is that the game nederlands vs russia is so... early. i really liked their plays. would be a great half final or final.

 

[Madbringer]

Aye, I agree, dirty foul.

Though it's not the ref that should've seen that, it's his linesman, he was standing pretty close to it. How the hell he missed it is beyond me, the linesmen that work with Fröjdfeldt are usually pretty good (as our commentator noted; it's a really good team, and "a referee gets the linesmen he deserves")

Hm. I might be wrong here, but it did happen after the whistle, and i think ref should kind see that as soon as the German player runs past him, Ronaldo starts screaming in pain. Well, a mistake one way or the other.

Remember, the refs are supposed to be extra strict on pushing and shoving during dead game moments now. No one except Howard Webb has done so, so far, and he's got death threats for it.

Yeah. Funny that the strictest of them all (in retrospect, bravest?) comes from the UK.

I was surprised how much difficult Portugal had getting the ball moving, especially in the first half when Podolski left the entire right side open for abuse.

I meant the Ballack goal in particular. :p

That's kind of inevitable in championships. One country sends a pedant, like Belgium's de Bleekere, the other sends an extreme-rule-is-rule-dude, like England's Webber, the other sends a "just let the game go and only interfere when necessary" like Fröjdfeldt.

Truths. As the old saying goes, "a good referee is invisible". Still, i did expect more consistency from them, especially after those bold statements by UEFA about heightened standards of reffing. Thought, nothing particularly outrageous so far, even my whine about Webb was more or less made out of spite and disappointment. *shrug*

That would be a mistake. Podolski was pretty bad this match, because he's not much of a winger who can also defend, but that's the task he got anyway. Schweinsteiger did better of it.

Aw, come on. True, he's not good in defense, and that might have taken it's toll against a team that would try and take advantage of that, but he's a powerhouse in offense. Though, yeah, i wouldn't keep him on a wing.

Anyway, taking out Gomez made sense, but Low appears to have changed the system to move Schweinsteiger into a retreated right wing position, Podolski in a forward left wing, thus make a kind of 4-3-3 with Ballack roaming fairly free behind Klose. It worked, but the defense still doesn't look that good.

Lehmann is looking better than the first few matches. Still not very good, but better.

It was obvious that Germany would have trouble in defense even before the tournament. Every time they switch to a more defensive system, trouble starts, that's been a fact for years, now, and in an all-or-nothing match against a seemingly stronger opponent, keeping it offensive proved effective. Actually, i think Portugal was surprised to see Ballack moved forward, he wasn't running so close to the box before.

Still, the last 20 or so minutes, with Portugal gradually pushing Germany back, fleshed out that this is far from a perfect mechanism, i suspect it was on-the-fly work from the German coach. They can't allow themselves to just defend on their half and work on counters, Nani and Postiga showed it isn't that difficult to make them pay for staying so far back.

But yeah, i still do think Germany looks strong. Again, i'm really impressed that they could draw the right conclusions from the group stage and re-motivate themselves.

About Lehmann, meh. I very much expect him to make something really, really stupid sooner or later. He isn't very strong mentally, if Germany would be chasing the score instead of leading it, i think he wouldn't defend half as good.

And surely don't blame Paulo Ferreira bad positioning, he had won the position until Ballack pushed him away. Or didn't you saw the same match I saw? Or your TV set doesn't show the replay, where you can see that clearly?

What stopped him from taking a step back? Or from falling down? Ref would surely whistle then. Nah, he lost the position to Ballack. Not saying that's 100% fair play, but this kind of stuff happens all the time, and, especially in the box, this shouldn't be whistled unless it's a much harder tackle. IMO.

 

[horse]

yes - when they switched to defense one could see that the offense didnt exactly know what to do in some parts of the game. we suck at defense. as other teams rely on single players in the offense and midfield we rely on 1 or 2 outstanding players in the defense.

a few times we were just saved by the simple fact that the portugeses were just that bit smaller. why they didnt do more fast and low passes in the 16-meters instead oh high passes which were permanently intercepted... i dont know. that would have done it. i am still awestruck by the explosive speed some of the portugeses showed.

and lehmann... he hasnt got that iron will of kahn. kahn, of course, is a nutcase, but that guy was iron.

great that the dreamteam schweini and klose is back. SCWEINIIIIII!

 

[ZiggyMeister]

(...)
What stopped him from taking a step back? Or from falling down? Ref would surely whistle then. Nah, he lost the position to Ballack. Not saying that's 100% fair play, but this kind of stuff happens all the time, and, especially in the box, this shouldn't be whistled unless it's a much harder tackle. IMO.

Sorry, but I don't agree with you, if you can, please watch the replay one or two times more, from the view point of the ball, and you will see that Paulo Ferreira only loses the position in a split second before the ball is there, he never had a chance to step back. As for falling down, that wasn't that kind of a foul, so it would be a overreaction, and I think that goes against the fair play "rule book", but doesn't make that foul less of a foul...

So I guess we really don't agree on this, and we must agree to disagree

 

[Brother None]

I never said the referee made a bad job, but I'm not saying he did a good job either... German players deserved a lot more cards than the 2 yellow ones they got, mainly on the first half.

Really? I didn't see that many card-deserving fouls. Plenty of fouls, true, but deserving cards? The hand-step, true, but otherwise? I mean, it's true, the Portuguese tried their best to convince the ref the other guys deserved cards by constant schwalbes and theatricals, but it's only a good thing refs are learning to ignore this...ahm...Mediterranean style of football.

I also don't think he was the worst referee I have seen in the last few days, that prize goes to the Austrian guy, together with his team, that whistled Switzerland: 2 X Portugal: 0. That was really the worst referee I saw in a long, long time... Because I really don't watch small leagues football!

Uh-huh.

So lemme get this straight, when Portugal loses, the refereeing is at fault?

Excuse me if you're not convincing me. Whining about the referee after a loss is the lowest insult to sportmanship in existence. Man the fuck up.

In my opinion, a referee has to mess up pretty badly before I blame him for the course of any game. Even the half-arsed "refereeing" at the Qs in the last WC, between Portugal-Netherlands when the field turned into a battlezone...no reason to blame the ref. He's not the one trying to fuck the other player or kick him out of the game. Players fault first, referee's fault second.

But whatever, it is easier to just blame the ref.

And yes, I was speaking of Ballack's foul on Paulo Ferreira, and I disagree with you, I think that a referee at the level of this match should/must had seen and sanctioned it.

Right, 'coz he has magic eyes.

Petition the UEFA for video reviews/

The referee must sanction those kind of fouls, specially if they can influence the outcome of a match, i.e.: fouls that enable goals, or fouls that are penalties.

Say what? You do realise that the tradition of goals made from corners/free kicks is that they're enabled by pushing, right? Not that this is a good thing, but it is the way it is.

Truths. As the old saying goes, "a good referee is invisible". Still, i did expect more consistency from them, especially after those bold statements by UEFA about heightened standards of reffing. Thought, nothing particularly outrageous so far, even my whine about Webb was more or less made out of spite and disappointment. *shrug*

Eh. Refereeing has a ways to go, but so far this is one of the best-officiated EC's of all time. So the UEFA is right: the standard is being upped.

Aw, come on. True, he's not good in defense, and that might have taken it's toll against a team that would try and take advantage of that, but he's a powerhouse in offense. Though, yeah, i wouldn't keep him on a wing.

That means he should be a striker. Or a winger in a true 4-3-3 system. He looked like an absolute dork letting Bosingwa walk all over him. Not once, but time and time again.

It's just not in his nature to defend, and it's not his fault that he's put in this position, but when put in it he should fight for team interest. He doesn't. Hence, not great.

That's quite different from Wesley Sneijder. Just watch what the little bugger does when the Netherlands loses the ball.

we suck at defense!

I think your defense isn't even the basic problem. Mertesacker and Metzelder are two of the best, if you ask me. It's the fact that people like Ballack and Podolski drop the ball. Watch the first Portuguese goal closely, and see how it was preceded by two eminently bloackable passes. The first soared past Podolski and all he had to do is move a meter to the right, but he didn't. Pure laziness, pure ineptness.

In modern football, you can't really afford to just lean on the last 4, no matter how good they are. Your defenders are qualitively better than the Dutch defenders, yet the Dutch defense looks more solid because any attempt at well-timed passes is disrupted by Kuijt or van der Vaart.

 

[ZiggyMeister]

(...)
Uh-huh.

So lemme get this straight, when Portugal loses, the refereeing is at fault?

Excuse me if you're not convincing me. Whining about the referee after a loss is the lowest insult to sportmanship in existence. Man the fuck up.

In my opinion, a referee has to mess up pretty badly before I blame him for the course of any game. Even the half-arsed "refereeing" at the Qs in the last WC, between Portugal-Netherlands when the field turned into a battlezone...no reason to blame the ref. He's not the one trying to fuck the other player or kick him out of the game. Players fault first, referee's fault second.

But whatever, it is easier to just blame the ref.

I hadn't said that the Portugal losing was the referee fault, I said Germany could thank the referee for wining... kind of different.
I really don't know how the game would turn out, if the 3rd goal wasn't counted, I really don't have that gift!
Of course the Portuguese defense was at fault on the first 2 goals, and Ricardo also helped in the 2nd. But from my point of view, the referee helped on the 3rd one.

And regarding the defeat with Switzerland, I guess I really blame the referee and his assistant for not counting a valid goal, that would put the game 1:0 in favor of Portugal. But then again, I don't have the gift of foreseeing, so I also don't know what would be the outcome of that match if Postiga goal had counted.

 

[Bad_Karma]

I hadn't said that the Portugal losing was the referee fault, I said Germany could thank the referee for wining... kind of different.

Sorry, but i think that's exactly the same thing.

There were faults, but on both sides. He choosed not to give a penalty when a portugese had a hand-play, wich i think was the right decision, and he oversaw a foul that lead to a goal.
He Oversaw at least 2 fouls of the portugese and saw the revenge fouls of german players.
And you know what? There would be germans complaining about that, if we would have lost.

And therefore it's allways somewhat of a no-brainer to put all the blame on the referee.
You could also blame the portugese team for totally sucking in the first 30 minutes of the game, or the offence for not making goals when they had the chances (and they had quite a lot) or the defence for not doing well enough.

And i'm still surprised, i wasn't even watching the game until the first goal, because i thought Portugal was going to win.

 

[Sander]

I hadn't said that the Portugal losing was the referee fault, I said Germany could thank the referee for wining... kind of different.

Errr...what's the difference?

Also, this is suprising. Portugal got thrashed by Germany, which was led by the previously suspended Schweinsteiger. Solid performance by the Germans, proving Gary Linekers old addage once again: "Football is a simple game; 22 men chase a ball for 90 minutes and at the end, the Germans win."

I wonder whether they'll be able to get past what will probably be Croatia. If Croatia wins it'll be the first time a group match is replayed at the semi-final stage in at least a European tournament and I suspect any major tournament at all.

Also, this opens up the very real possibility of yet another epic Germany - Netherlands match in the final. It'd be so sick if that game got there. All previous confrontations (except for the Euro 2004 one) at final tournaments were the stuff of legends.

 

[ZiggyMeister]

I hadn't said that the Portugal losing was the referee fault, I said Germany could thank the referee for wining... kind of different.

Errr...what's the difference?
(...)

Well, the difference, for me, is that Germany scored 2 valid goals that were the result of their work and the lack of ability of the Portuguese defense to stop them, that probably would have been enough for Portugal to lose, making this Portugal fault.
But they also scored 1 goal that was the result of a foul that should have been sanctioned by the referee, making the final score 3:2 for Germany, the referee fault, so Germany can thank the referee for winning 3:2.

This may not sound as logical as "2 + 2 = 4".
But I'm Portuguese, and we really like to whine, and from time to time we like to blame the referees and if possible punch them in the stomach...

 

[Starwars]

What the fuck is going on in this match?! Croatia scores 1-0 with one minute left of overtime. And Turkey scores 1-1 just before the whistle blows.

Now into penalty kicks, crazy.

 

[horse]

forget about going to sleep in duesseldorf... its "auto-corso" time. probably till 3 or 4 in the morning

 

[Per]

Where is your god now, Croatinians?

 

[Sander]

Wowowowowowowowow.

This game was sooooo sick and somewhat undeserved. But absolutely brilliant match to watch. Thrilling, exciting, lots of very high balls over the goal. And the Turks with, again, an insane last minute upset.

 

[Brother None]

This game was sooooo sick and somewhat undeserved.

I wouldn't say that. The Croats deserved it during regular time, but lost any right to call this game theirs when it went into overtime. They dropped the ball there.

Typical Turkish victory on the only real quality they have: they never, ever stop.

Neither do the Germans, which should make for a funny match.

 

[Jesterka]

Worst executed penalty shots by the Croatians I've seen for a very, very long time, really.

 

[Sander]

I wouldn't say that. The Croats deserved it during regular time, but lost any right to call this game theirs when it went into overtime. They dropped the ball there.

Well, yes, but if you look at the overall gameflow it really was somewhat undeserved. The Croats managed to blast a gazillion shots over the bar and the Turks weren't really dangerous, well, ever.

But still, that last minute was very, very sick. That goal probably did the Croats in, as I don't think they could ever come back from that mentally.

Typical Turkish victory on the only real quality they have: they never, ever stop.

Neither do the Germans, which should make for a funny match.

Should be great, in fact. Of course, I'm rooting for Germany to go through because I want to see an epic Germany - Netherlands final, but having Turkey go through would be a great upset.

Although there are some worries about supporter clashes (which would be the first real problems around supporters this tournament).

EDIT: Also, what the hell was Rustu doing at the Croatian goal? Oddly reminiscent of Nikopolidis' blunder against the Russians.