You might as well say that all exploits in all games are just fine and dandy and should never be fixed, since all you have to do is not take advantage of them. Now granted, I don't really care if people cheat out the ass on their own games, playing single-player (multi-player is a totally different issue obviously). But, I'd still prefer to see unintentional exploits fixed rather than just left in because some people enjoy taking advantage of them. Heck, there were a couple other infinite experience glitches fixed by Killap too. Personally, I find cheating distasteful, which may be biasing my views here I suppose.
Fallout 2 mod Unofficial Fo2 patch thread - problems, reports, suggestions
- Thread starter Per
- Start date
GanymeDes-
It Wandered In From the Wastes
I agree with you. I hate to see people cheating if they just don't have what it takes to beat the game normally. However, getting infinite exp _after finishing the game_ is not all that bad, it's kinda nice. I mean, if someone would like to get a save with lvl 99 character he is supposed to just fight random encounters the rest of the game? I can totally see the use of the "bug" there.
Think it like this... When creating something you might sometimes fail doing what you intended, but instead you accidentally made it even better than planned. Thats how I'd think of this.
Afterall, what are we trying to do here? Make the game work as it should have been... for who?
But I guess it's no use to force my views to you who think it should be fixed. I'll just delete the script then if there won't be a option for this in the installer.
Think it like this... When creating something you might sometimes fail doing what you intended, but instead you accidentally made it even better than planned. Thats how I'd think of this.
Afterall, what are we trying to do here? Make the game work as it should have been... for who?
But I guess it's no use to force my views to you who think it should be fixed. I'll just delete the script then if there won't be a option for this in the installer.
Hi killap!
First: thanks for this patch!
Great work!
Like i wrote in my mail to you i`ve translated your patch into german (just 4 me)
But there are some "bugs" i don`t understand:
In Klamath when you talk to the guy, who will give you the key for trappertown. He says here it is, but i don`t get it. I have to steal it from hin.
Duntons and Torr:
Agree to help Torr and kill the first rad-scorpion. Then walk to the duntons agree to scare Torr. You tell Torr about the "Wanzenmänner" (don`t know the english word for it; Bugman?) and he ran away... now kill all the rad-scorpions, and go back to klamath.
The dunton aren`t there.
Same if you talk to them but disagree to help them, they won`t be at the klamath map again.
Wolfz
First: thanks for this patch!
Great work!
Like i wrote in my mail to you i`ve translated your patch into german (just 4 me)
But there are some "bugs" i don`t understand:
In Klamath when you talk to the guy, who will give you the key for trappertown. He says here it is, but i don`t get it. I have to steal it from hin.
Duntons and Torr:
Agree to help Torr and kill the first rad-scorpion. Then walk to the duntons agree to scare Torr. You tell Torr about the "Wanzenmänner" (don`t know the english word for it; Bugman?) and he ran away... now kill all the rad-scorpions, and go back to klamath.
The dunton aren`t there.
Same if you talk to them but disagree to help them, they won`t be at the klamath map again.
Wolfz
Kyuu said:
You try really hard not to understand don't ya. I want this one "bug" that occur after the game is finished, all that occur b4 you blow the enclave those shall of curse be fixed those bugs are game braking and as u mention there is some other experience glitches but those occur before you have finished the game there is the different, I don't wanna cheat while finishing the game but after finishing I wanna have some fun. And you don't seem to care much for it is just an other bug you want fixed for there reason it is a bug, why not let us that like it have it, you wont even notice.
To be even more clear: It is only the Vault 13 computer and the Book "BuG" i want left in an no other bug.
Wolfz said:
Yeah, I mentioned this too, earlier.
But the thing about Vic disappearing is the worst bug so far. It wasn't there in the original, either.
Another one: Wooz in Gecko still has no inventory to trade. Isn't he now supposed to?
And again, is fixing the annoying reset of Cassidy's combat settings a complicated issue?
Regarding the after-the-game unlimited XP issue, I agree with those who would like all exploits removed, even if one doesn't "have to" use them, and even if they're only available after beating the game. If one wants to cheat, let that be done with actual game manipulation tools instead game glitches not intended by the makers.
Oh i`m sorry ocelot i`he misst your post 
I get another intresting thing:
After stealing all the stuff from metzer, and killed him, his dead body got the inventory form the guy in klamath who will increas your close combat ability (2x healing poder, gecko-skin, spear,..)
Edit:
I can enter the residental area in den by pressing key "3"
In the gang-war in Den there are 2 people missing in the fight (don`t know if this is patched)
Normaly only the guy next to the door disapear, all other are there when the fight begins.
Should this be so? With this change there is no... difficulty in this encounter :/
I get another intresting thing:
After stealing all the stuff from metzer, and killed him, his dead body got the inventory form the guy in klamath who will increas your close combat ability (2x healing poder, gecko-skin, spear,..)
Edit:
I can enter the residental area in den by pressing key "3"
In the gang-war in Den there are 2 people missing in the fight (don`t know if this is patched)
Normaly only the guy next to the door disapear, all other are there when the fight begins.
Should this be so? With this change there is no... difficulty in this encounter :/
ocelot said:
And he wasn't down at Mom's, either?
Wolfz said:
Metzger has a "shop" inventory representing things looted from slaves, which includes those items and resets at time.
The Masticator
First time out of the vault
OK, I just got an email reply from Chris Avellone via myspace. I'd asked about the VC infinite XP situation.
My guess is that the default script used for objects that give you xp (doors for locking/unlocking etc.) has a check to see if it has been used before. The quick and dirty way to make the infinite XP would be to cut and paste the standard item script and just break the check intentionally. At a certain point these guys were just cranking out code as fast as they could because of the massive pressure from marketing to get the product out the door. Elegant scripting was a time-intensive luxury they couldn't afford, as we have all experienced with the swarms of bugs over the years.
[ moment of pontification ] You know, if they had had an extra six months to really make the game they had wanted to make (submarine, the abbey, shadow-who-walks, EPA, etc.) and made it as close to bug free as they could, I doubt we'd be playing this game with the same fervor today. One of the compelling things about Fallout 2 is that it was a great game, and yet could have been greater still. That bit of unmet potential gleaming in the distance has been what has driven many in this community to try and make Fallout 2 what it could have been.[ /moment of pontification]
Anyway, if you want to get a hold of Chris you can track him down via myspace, or pm me. I don't want to post anything here as I'm sure he's a busy guy and doesn't need to get hit by an extra slough of email.
Chris Avellone said:
My guess is that the default script used for objects that give you xp (doors for locking/unlocking etc.) has a check to see if it has been used before. The quick and dirty way to make the infinite XP would be to cut and paste the standard item script and just break the check intentionally. At a certain point these guys were just cranking out code as fast as they could because of the massive pressure from marketing to get the product out the door. Elegant scripting was a time-intensive luxury they couldn't afford, as we have all experienced with the swarms of bugs over the years.
[ moment of pontification ] You know, if they had had an extra six months to really make the game they had wanted to make (submarine, the abbey, shadow-who-walks, EPA, etc.) and made it as close to bug free as they could, I doubt we'd be playing this game with the same fervor today. One of the compelling things about Fallout 2 is that it was a great game, and yet could have been greater still. That bit of unmet potential gleaming in the distance has been what has driven many in this community to try and make Fallout 2 what it could have been.[ /moment of pontification]
Anyway, if you want to get a hold of Chris you can track him down via myspace, or pm me. I don't want to post anything here as I'm sure he's a busy guy and doesn't need to get hit by an extra slough of email.
Yeah, check there.Per said:
You shouldn't be able to. I will have to double check this. Perhaps I copied over the expansion city.txt file by accident. Don't think so though.Wolfz said:
I honestly cannot remember but I do believe only one of the guys by the door is supposed to leave. I have never heard of this issue before though and I really cannot recall modifying anything that would have caused a glitch like this to happen. I will investigate.Wolfz said:
@The Masticator
Well, if he says it was intended then I will enable it again. It is indeed true that door/object scripts do have a default check for only allowing you to get the xp once. What is interesting though is that the book and vc computer have SPECIFIC variables for the check. (such as "read_book") It really seems that they wanted a check here, but BS devs are the source and if they say it was intended then that is what it will be.
@everyone else.
I am really swamped with school work and thus if I missed your message I will get to it at some point. If I don't just remind me and I will.
Chris Avellone isn't a reliable source. He's not in print for one thing.
Not to mention, it doesn't make sense for the conditional check to be there but broken, if it was intentional. Unless, it was simply a last minute change and they were too lazy to simply remove the check completely and just decided to break it. It's possible, I suppose. Anyway, enough about that. I'm sure Killap is sick of us bickering in his thread.
No worries, take your time.Killap said:
Skynet
Mildly Dipped
Wolfz said:
When you talk to Tyler, you'll find out his gang is throwing a party tonight. Seraph made a "fix" that more guards are at the party, not just one (logical fix). Since killap started over Seraph's work, Seraph's fix remained in the code I assume.
The Masticator
First time out of the vault
Kyuu said:
I think you'll find that there was a heavy dose of sarcasm in Per's previous post Kyuu. Chris was the guy who designed Vault City. You can't get a more difinitive source than that. Anyway, you're right about the bickering. I won't bring it up again for any reason
@Killap
If this thing doesn't see the light of day until Spring break 2009 that's fine by me. That you're working on it at all is a miracle. The freshness seal on FO2 is 10 years past. What's a month or a year more?
Bug: I'm guessing the script for the chain reaction land mines in the Raider caves has a broken check just like the hintbook and the VC endgame terminal. Hence the infinite disarm trap XP.
Don't worry, it won't take that long. I just have a week from hell coming up and thus I don't have time to work on Fallout until the end of the week.The Masticator said:
I admit I was hoping for the bug reports to slow to essentially a stop with my latest patch but I am not surprised they are not. Every time I have ever gone in to fix a specific bug, I leave fixing something else I stumbled across. Bugs are everywhere I am afraid and thus if it wasn't for you guys posting I would never come across these issues. So, keep reporting. The only thing that does get me down is that there seems to be some issues that have crept in from the work I did. This troubles (since I do test but not as thorough lately I am afraid) me but I'll get to the bottom of them.
@Skynet
I did not realize Seraph did that. I will have to look at the script again. If this is indeed the case, do others agree that this is not a worthwhile gameplay change? (I mean it is not a bug anyway) I suppose it makes sense for more than one guard to leave, but who says logic exists in the game anyway?
The Masticator said:
Well, actually not (except for that aimed at Wikipedia). While it's perfectly possible that he'd remember such a detail from ten years ago, I would want to judge his reply in light of how the actual question was phrased. Does he specifically remember changing his mind and turning this from a one-time to an infinite bonus, or finding that Tom French had put in a conditional check and telling him to remove it? If not, the least far-fetched explanation for the presence of the check seems to be that it was actually meant to be included.
killap said:
I would restore it to how it was before.
Regarding the gang fight, it does make sense for two more of the guards to leave, given how Lara talks about not wanting to attack while her gang's outnumbered and Tyler leaving only a "skeleton crew". While it does make the fight rather easy, Lara doesn't ask for the player's help, so she must not expect the fight to be too difficult. Pre-patch, there was a decent chance she'd lose if you stayed out of it. On the other hand, it wasn't technically a bug.
And it can't do as many things as Falche, for instance, can. I'm considering trying to write one myself. Any available documentation on the structure of the savegame files would be a tremendous help, of course.The Masticator said:
The Masticator
First time out of the vault
Damnit! I'm addressing this topic again . . . Bad Masticator! Bad! ::slaps self::
Here's the question exactly as I posed it the email:
"A point of contention has come up though and we were hoping you might be able to shed some light on this question about Vault City:
After the game is over and you use the XP reward computer in the basement it gave you a large lump of XP EVERY time you clicked on it for infinite XP.
The conditional check to see if the terminal has been used already or not is broken in the script, and this is what allows for the infinite XP. Some see this as a bug that needs fixing and others feel that it was intentional as a reward for beating the game. I realize this was more than a decade ago, but we were hoping you might have some recollection on this. Any thoughts?"
I think his statement here is pretty decisive:
Regardless of the what the sausage on the back end looks like, the intent was to create a method for making a "super character" with the VC terminal after the game is finished.
I'd agree whole heartedly with that. If you want an easy battle, rat out the ursurpers and side with Tyler.
If you need any testing help with this I'd be more than happy to help.
Per said:
Here's the question exactly as I posed it the email:
"A point of contention has come up though and we were hoping you might be able to shed some light on this question about Vault City:
After the game is over and you use the XP reward computer in the basement it gave you a large lump of XP EVERY time you clicked on it for infinite XP.
The conditional check to see if the terminal has been used already or not is broken in the script, and this is what allows for the infinite XP. Some see this as a bug that needs fixing and others feel that it was intentional as a reward for beating the game. I realize this was more than a decade ago, but we were hoping you might have some recollection on this. Any thoughts?"
I think his statement here is pretty decisive:
Chris Avellone said:
Regardless of the what the sausage on the back end looks like, the intent was to create a method for making a "super character" with the VC terminal after the game is finished.
Per said:
I'd agree whole heartedly with that. If you want an easy battle, rat out the ursurpers and side with Tyler.
Kanhef said:
If you need any testing help with this I'd be more than happy to help.
I still say CA is drunk and delirious and making things up.
Bah! I have serious doubts about his being able to actually recollect that one detail from 10 years ago, especially considering he failed to even comment on the issue of broken conditional in the script. I'm more inclined to believe he simply made a decision on the spot.
Plus there is Per's contention of Chris being drunk and delusional.
And, there's always the possibility of Masticator deliberately hoodwinking us.
However, even if for the sole reason of allowing us to move on to more constructive topics, I'll concede. Keep your damn cheater computer.
Plus there is Per's contention of Chris being drunk and delusional.
And, there's always the possibility of Masticator deliberately hoodwinking us.
However, even if for the sole reason of allowing us to move on to more constructive topics, I'll concede. Keep your damn cheater computer.