US presidential elections thread

[Izak]

You know what else was a big threat to the world at the time? Fascism.

 

[Hassknecht]

You know what else was a big threat to the world at the time? Fascism.

But it's cool, the fascists hated the jews who were all communists. So obviously fascism and national socialism were the good guys here.
Let's ignore that national socialism is pretty much socialism, but instead of prosperity for the proletariat it's prosperity for the chosen people.

 

[Illuminati Confirmed!]

You know what else was a big threat to the world at the time? Fascism.

Not nearly as much. It was almost exclusive to Europe (Italy and Spain, before the war started and puppet regimes started popping up) and only came about as a prominent option because people were afraid of communism.

But it's cool, the fascists hated the jews who were all communists. So obviously fascism and national socialism were the good guys here.
Let's ignore that national socialism is pretty much socialism, but instead of prosperity for the proletariat it's prosperity for the chosen people.

I don't know how Germany educates its scientists, but it sure seems that they suck at reading comprehension.

 

[Hassknecht]

Not nearly as much. It was almost exclusive to Europe (Italy and Spain, before the war started and puppet regimes started popping up) and only came about as a prominent option because people were afraid of communism.

And communism was not more or less exclusive to Europe?

I don't know how Germany educates its scientists, but it sure seems that they suck at reading comprehension.

Hyperbole, m'man.

 

[Illuminati Confirmed!]

And communism was not more or less exclusive to Europe?

When the first fascist movements started appearing, mostly. By the time Hitler got to power, it was a worldwide phenomenon. Fascism never had ideas like world revolution and global domination.

 

[Hassknecht]

When the first fascist movements started appearing, mostly. By the time Hitler got to power, it was a worldwide phenomenon. Fascism never had ideas like world revolution and global domination.

Oh yeah. Fascism never aimed for global domination. No sir, absolutely not. Any aggressive expansion was all just to save the world from communism!

 

[Izak]

Fascism never had ideas like world revolution and global domination.

You're wrong.

Some proponents of ideologies (anarchism, communism, fascism, Nazism, capitalism) actively pursue the goal of establishing a form of government consistent with their political beliefs, or assert that the world is moving "naturally" towards the adoption of a particular form of government (or self), authoritarian or anti-authoritarian. These proposals are not concerned with a particular nation achieving world domination, but with all nations conforming to a particular social or economic model. A goal of world domination can be to establish a world government, a single common political authority for all of humanity.

Adolf Hitler: The year 1941 will be, I am convinced, the historical year of a great European New Order.[1]

Among other things, it entailed the creation of a pan-German racial state structured according to Nazi ideology to ensure the supremacy of an Aryan-Nordic master race, massive territorial expansion into Eastern Europe through its colonization with German settlers, the physical annihilation of the Jews and others considered to be "unworthy of life", and the extermination, expulsion, or enslavement of most of the Slavic peoples and others regarded as "racially inferior".[2] Nazi Germany’s desire for aggressive territorial expansionism was one of the most important causes of World War II.
Historians are still divided as to its ultimate goals, some believing that it was to be limited to Nazi German domination of Europe, while others maintain that it was a springboard for eventual world conquest and the establishment of a world government under German control.[3]

 

[Illuminati Confirmed!]

Oh yeah. Fascism never aimed for global domination. No sir, absolutely not. Any aggressive expansion was all just to save the world from communism!

Germany wasn't fascist, it was national socialist. Both are totalitarian systems, but fascism lacked the racial component (before they became allies, Mussolini even mocked Hitler, and said that there was no such thing as a pure race). Actual fascist countries were pretty useless in terms of wars and conquests.

You're wrong.

German expansion was focused on claiming territories with German majority populations or those which were part of the empire before the great war and establishing Germany as the dominant power in Europe. How we get from this to "world government" remains a mystery. Imperialism isn't exclusive to ideologies, it's just what powerful states do.

I didn't know there were people who actually believe that WWII started over Hitler wanting to conquer the ENTIRE WORLD!

 

[Izak]

Ahh, you're right, let's ignore the opinions of actual fucking historians in favour of your clearly logically superior arguments.

German expansion was focused on claiming territories with German majority populations

Was that why they invaded Czechoslovakia and, Poland?

 

[Jogre]

, just like Islam is today

You keep saying that as if Islam is a major problem. It's Radical Islam that is. I have met plenty of Muslims who are just ordinary people who happened to be raised a different faith. Islam is not by itself a bad thing.

To blame Muslims as a whole for what some extremists have done, would be like blaming Christians for the Westboro Baptist Church.

 

[Hassknecht]

Germany wasn't fascist, it was national socialist. Both are totalitarian systems, but fascism lacked the racial component (before they became allies, Mussolini even mocked Hitler, and said that there was no such thing as a pure race). Actual fascist countries were pretty useless in terms of wars and conquests.

But not for lack of trying. One goal of Mussolini was (funnily enough) to make Italy great again. First as a Great Power in Europe, but they also immediately started gaining territory in Africa. They just sucked at it.
But to be fair they started out with normal colonies until the Third Reich pressured them into adopting more racism.

 

[Illuminati Confirmed!]

Ahh, you're right, let's ignore the opinions of actual fucking historians in favour of your clearly logically superior arguments.

If you have actual fucking historians sharing your opinion, you shouldn't have trouble coming up with actual evidence and arguments to support your childish claims.

Even your own previous post cites actual historians whose opinions support my arguments.

You keep saying that as if Islam is a major problem. It's Radical Islam that is. I have met plenty of Muslims who are just ordinary people who happened to be raised a different faith. Islam is not by itself a bad thing.

To blame Muslims as a whole for what some extremists have done, would be like blaming Christians for the Westboro Baptist Church.

You might want to read a bit of the Quran and learn a thing or two about Muhammad, who is considered by muslims to be the ideal man and prophet of God.

If it's just a small minority of radicals that's the problem, why does the vast majority of Muslim countries suck?

 

[Izak]

If you have actual fucking historians sharing your opinion, you shouldn't have trouble coming up with actual evidence and arguments to support your childish claims.

Even your own previous post cites actual historians whose opinions support my arguments.

Done.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_foreign_policy_debate
The argument most historians have over Nazi Germany's expansive goals seems to be over whether Nazi Germany wanted to rule Europe or, the world, either way it's close enough to global domination.

 

[Illuminati Confirmed!]

Done.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_foreign_policy_debate
The argument most historians have over Nazi Germany's expansive goals seems to be over whether Nazi Germany wanted to rule Europe or, the world, either way it's close enough to global domination.

Yeah, conquering Europe by the time the center of power had moved to the United States totally spells global domination.

Was that why they invaded Czechoslovakia and, Poland?

Czechoslovakia had a huge German minority, Poland had territories which were part of Germany before the first world war.

 

[Izak]

Yeah, conquering Europe by the time the center of power had moved to the United States totally spells global domination.

Domination of a continent that's 6000 kilometres away, has a population of 130 million and, is protected by an ocean isn't very feasible. If it were possible for Germany to have conquered the US then I'm sure there would've been plans for it.
You're also ignoring the other side to the argument which was that Germany did in fact have plans to take the US.

Czechoslovakia had a huge German minority, Poland had territories which were part of Germany before the first world war.

Czechoslovakia did have a large German minority, that was why Germany annexed the Sudetenland in 1938. Why did they then invade the rest of Czechoslovakia? Because they were imperialistic and, would take lebensraum from any country that either wouldn't be able to take the land back, they didn't just want places with German minorities.

 

[Illuminati Confirmed!]

Domination of a continent that's 6000 kilometres away, has a population of 130 million and, is protected by an ocean isn't very feasible. If it were possible for Germany to have conquered the US then I'm sure there would've been plans for it.
You're also ignoring the other side to the argument which was that Germany did in fact have plans to take the US.

If you can't dethrone the most powerful country in the world, how can global domination be in your plans?

As for Germany having plans to take the US - source?

Czechoslovakia did have a large German minority, that was why Germany annexed the Sudetenland in 1938. Why did they then invade the rest of Czechoslovakia? Because they were imperialistic and, would take lebensraum from any country that either wouldn't be able to take the land back, they didn't just want places with German minorities.

Nobody said they weren't imperialist. It's just that their imperialism wasn't inherent to their ideology, it's something that all powerful states do.

 

[Izak]

If you can't dethrone the most powerful country in the world, how can global domination be in your plans?

Taking over one to three continents would definitely be a solid way to dethrone America, once you have Europe, Africa and, Asia, America won't stand much of a chance.

As for Germany having plans to take the US - source?

The ultimate goal of the Nazi ideology, Rassenkampf, there doesn't seem to be an English wikipedia page but the idea was that the Aryans would rule over every other race in the world. Given how much of a cultural melting pot America was, they'd have to have taken America to achieve it; even if the American invasion never left the conceptual stage such a plan must have existed.

 

[Illuminati Confirmed!]

Taking over one to three continents would definitely be a solid way to dethrone America, once you have Europe, Africa and, Asia, America won't stand much of a chance.

Taking over Africa and Asia would just spread the German forces thin. And there's no evidence that they planned to do either.

The ultimate goal of the Nazi ideology, Rassenkampf, there doesn't seem to be an English wikipedia page but the idea was that the Aryans would rule over every other race in the world. Given how much of a cultural melting pot America was, they'd have to have taken America to achieve it; even if the American invasion never left the conceptual stage such a plan must have existed.

You actually believe... that the keystone and ultimate goal of Nazi ideology.... was race war? Are you serious? Again, actual evidence would be welcome.

 

[Izak]

Taking over Africa and Asia would just spread the German forces thin. And there's no evidence that they planned to do either.

Well he certainly had plans to establish German colonies across Africa and, he was quoted by his high command as having said that he expected war with the Asian races in Germany's future

Spoiler

Source (for Asia, Germany very obviously had plans for Africa, most countries did.):In early 1942, Hitler is quoted saying to Ribbentrop: "We have to think in terms of centuries. Sooner or later there will have to be a showdown between the white and the yellow races."[120]

You actually believe... that the keystone and ultimate goal of Nazi ideology.... was race war? Are you serious? Again, actual evidence would be welcome.

No the central tenet of Nazi ideology being the superiority of the Aryan race only existed because the Nazis wanted to be friends with everyone. Enslavement of slavs and blacks (possibly Arabs as well), extermination of the Jews and, whatever future Nazis would've thought up for the Asians; otherwise, if I remember my Nazi racial hierarchy correctly, the remaining Europeans (and hypothetically, Americans) would've been near equals with the Aryans.
I could cite a source but really, most of Nazi ideology was based on a general dislike for everything that wasn't German. I mean, read any Wikipedia page or book about the country and you'll find resoundingly that they hated just about everything and, had plans either for its extermination, enslavement or, destruction.

 

[Hassknecht]

Taking over Africa and Asia would just spread the German forces thin. And there's no evidence that they planned to do either.

You actually believe... that the keystone and ultimate goal of Nazi ideology.... was race war? Are you serious? Again, actual evidence would be welcome.

Have you read Mein Kampf? It's pretty clear when it comes race war. "Rassenkampf statt Klassenkampf" (race war instead of class war) is one of the fundamental ideas that Hitler used to unite Germany.
It's also pretty clear on expansion to the east, not just those places with german minorities, but all of Russia. And not because of communism, but explicitly for expanding Germany, "Lebensraum". That has always been a goal. Not much open in the beginning, but in the Liebmann records of 1933 he again mentions "Lebensraum im Osten" as one possible thing to do with the gained political power.
Africa and Asia were not explicitly mentioned early on, as the main goal was (Eastern) Europe. But there were plans for regaining the lost colonies, and given the general Blut & Boden ideology in the end it would have made sense for them to finally eradicate the indigenuous population.
It is disputed if Hitler planned for global domination from the beginning, but this ideology certainly makes it easy to justify further expansion as soon as one expansion is complete.