What are people's thoughts on how the Brotherhood is depicted in 3 and 4?

I can't say much about the ongoing discussion so I'll say my piece:

I do like the idea of a technologically advanced militia group trying to make the Wasteland a better place.
I do like the idea that said militia would be from a differing region.
I do like that said group uses Power Armor as part of their advanced gear.

I don't like that Bethesda made this group to be the Brotherhood of Steel. Granted I only felt this way after learning their history from Fallout New Vegas and the classics as without any of such knowledge, I had no idea of how odd the Brotherhood would be acting.
 
This is a weird fucking universe where fans of Fallout 1 and 2 are putting down endgame content of power armor and rifles to talk about how tribals would massacre them. Also, that the Wasteland acts like the first person shooters in Fallout 3 versus the random content encounters of Fallout 1 and 2 where you can cross California on foot or in a car without necessarily being annihilated. Also, that no rebuilding has been done in 200 years.

No, we're treating all of America as literally hell from California to America that people in space age warsuits are utterly terrified to cross.

As for the MWBoS, if Calculator was destroyed, they might have just pulled back to live in Cheyenne Mountain (Vault 0). Which could explain why they don't completely hold Chicago.

Re: Lyon's chapter

One Brotherhood of Steel chapter deciding to become sneering Imperialists and help the locals (and going to complete shit because of it) is not a gamebreaking lore, especially since Elijah also took his chapter on a crusade that almost got it wiped out.

As for the BoS not beating the Super Mutants, they use trench tactics and have kidnapping runs as well as other signs of being perfectly intelligent. They just don't speak English very well.
 
Although @Risewild and @mithrap mostly deconstructed and debunked various arguments presented, especially those by @Pwener who seems to ignore them constantly, I'd just like to point out what actual Brotherhood of Steel member is - the most average member of the Chapter - and why they are far weaker than we think them to be.



@TorontRayne made a comparison between BoS and Space Marines. This couldn't be farther from truth. (I am aware Toront said they are not the same or something in that regard, but there is a point here I'd like to make).
Without delving deep into WH40K, Space Marines are genetically modified superhumans who literally have around 20 organs more than homo sapiens, are 1-2m taller and the tech they possess can literally destroy tanks and endure direct tank gun hits because their armor is such a tremendous feat of technology. Space Marine, even without armor, could literally tear a fully equipped BoS Paladin in two, bare handed. They are that fucking strong.
So no, Brotherhood of Steel soldiers are not Space Marines. This is extremely important point that people seem to constantly forget. BoS are not super soldiers. Far from it.

Referring to West Coast BoS, they are inexperienced isolationist who have little actual combat experience, most of them spending lives manufacturing and dismantling technology, keeping their databases in check and spending time in VR/shooting ranges. Actual, experienced, tough-as-nails BoS members are far and few in between, because they are either too old (BoS has been in isolation for too long), under equipped (BoS has many bunkers which are locked down), have little intelligence about what's outside their bunkers to act effectively (few patrols, few fresh info) or are dead. Yes, dead, because BoS has lost many, and unlike NCR, doesn't have fresh blood to refill their ranks.

Compared to them, NCR is far, far better equipped, has much greater manpower and is (this is the part many people overlook) more experienced in combat. Much more.
NCR has thousands of regular "young blood" troops refilling their ranks, have many older, experienced soldiers that surpass BoS veterans in number, has a huge war machinery supplying their troops, have their own Power Armor units, and have elite units like Rangers which are death incarnate on the battlefield.

What do BoS have?
They have advanced weaponry which while very dangerous, is again mostly in hands of inexperienced grunts. Even then, to paraphrase Mr House, they amount to very little when you're outnumbered 15:1.
And they have the infamous Power Armor which is not all that powerful. PA was introduced pre-War to make a sort of heavy infantry which can serve effectively in various environments (but radiation is still a bane to it, see The Glow), to offer better protection and life support to the soldier inside, but it is not an almighty piece of protection that turns people into walking tanks. PA soldiers are "walking tanks" in a sense that they can easily carry heavy, extremely destructive weaponry which regular soldiers cannot carry and which can be more effective than tanks in some environments.
But the actual soldier encased in that armor, while better protected than regular infantry, is still highly vulnerable and as exemplified with resistance to 2,500 joules of kinetic energy, they can be felled with concentrated fire of conventional weapons - which is exactly what NCR is capable of doing, and doing it damn well.


So no, BoS soldiers are no super soldiers. They are not particularly good soldiers at all. They are stagnant isolationist, most of them combat rookies compared to a huge chunk of NCR troops. Kids and old men with dangerous toys.

I get what @Pwener tried to say with his "FO3 came before FNV", that at the time Van Buren wasn't considered canon and hence Bethesda didn't have to care about NCR-BoS war and design their BoS with such history in mind. I get it, and for the sake of the argument, let's go along with that. There are still problems.
FO2 BoS (which obviously predates any depiction in FO3) shows that they were already stagnant, too weak and of little actual importance and most likely incapable to field an expedition to East Coast. If you consider Tactics as canon, this is shown to be true, them hardly reaching Chicago. How could West BoS send another expedition to the East? They are spent.
If you don't consider Tactics canon, then you have an even weaker argument because any form of BoS you have is the isolated organization slowly fading away, oppressed by NCR who have taken huge territory and are slowly becoming a far more immediate threat and greater priority to deal with than hypothetical loot in DC ruins. This is all FO2 material.

Now, could BoS soldiers cross the wastes on foot on year long trek from one part of the US to the other?
Perhaps they could. But not in the way that FO3 showed us they did it. Not with unprotected families and children slowing them down. Not without losses. Not through every environment and against every enemy, no. Not with keeping constant radio communication with West. And they certainly would not be able to have any reinforcements from West later on - or, to be more precise, West could never provide it.



...



On a side note, I believe that there is a sort of...hmm, popular opinion, or rather, idea that power armored soldiers in SF works are nigh indestructible and extremely strong.
From the Heinlein's Starship Troopers to Warhammer 40,000, there are many works of fiction that confirm this rule and which are probably to blame for this general idea - power armored soldiers are usually elite men, specially trained, the best of the best, equipped with technological marvels which gives them an immense advantage over regular troops on the battlefield, fielding unimaginable destructive power, from lasers, anti-tank and plasma weapons to handheld nuclear launchers.

Perhaps pre-War US Power Armor troops did conform to this rule - being elite soldiers who were specially trained to use PA, with huge support to back them up.
Perhaps early-day BoS of FO1 also belonged to this category. Any other presentation of BoS does not.
 
Also in Fallout 3 they decided that Deathclaws ignore all DT, which means that doesn't matter if you wear a PA or a business suit, the Deathclaw deals the same damage. So by Fallout 3 lore, deathclaws shred any type of armor and so does anyone who crafts a Deathclaw Gauntlet.

Beth removes the DT concepts completely. because they believed it's too complex.
DT did briefly returns in New Vegas which made by much of the old Black Isle gang.
 
This is a weird fucking universe where fans of Fallout 1 and 2 are putting down endgame content of power armor and rifles to talk about how tribals would massacre them. Also, that the Wasteland acts like the first person shooters in Fallout 3 versus the random content encounters of Fallout 1 and 2 where you can cross California on foot or in a car without necessarily being annihilated. Also, that no rebuilding has been done in 200 years.

No, we're treating all of America as literally hell from California to America that people in space age warsuits are utterly terrified to cross.

As for the MWBoS, if Calculator was destroyed, they might have just pulled back to live in Cheyenne Mountain (Vault 0). Which could explain why they don't completely hold Chicago.

Re: Lyon's chapter

One Brotherhood of Steel chapter deciding to become sneering Imperialists and help the locals (and going to complete shit because of it) is not a gamebreaking lore, especially since Elijah also took his chapter on a crusade that almost got it wiped out.

As for the BoS not beating the Super Mutants, they use trench tactics and have kidnapping runs as well as other signs of being perfectly intelligent. They just don't speak English very well.
I remember being killed many times in random encounters while crossing California and wearing Power Armor in Fallout and Fallout 2.

No one said rebuilding didn't happened in 200 years, what I said is that as shown by lore and previous games, the wastelands are deadly. And that the BoS is not trusted by the general population, also that most of the territory we know about from previous games show that outside NCR, it is full of wars constantly happening between factions and tribes before Caesar made his legion, after Caesar made his Legion, his territory is probably the most safe for travel, but not for the BoS because those are hunted at first sight. Also to add to that, how many real settlements does Fallout games after the second one show? By real settlements I mean with actual law enforcing or military personnel capable of protecting the settlement in case of attack from a group of, let's say, 10 tough raiders? Usually one or two settlements only. That doesn't paint the rest of the wastelands all over the USA as being very good either.

And yes, people with space age war suits should be afraid of crossing the USA wasteland, specially carrying little kids with them. Fallout 3 lore says that Deathclaws can kill a power armored soldier in one or two hits and Bethesda Deathclaw lore shows that they exist pretty much everywhere in the USA Wastelands. People with hunting rifles can kill a PA user, hell, even with weaker weapons if they keep shooting consistently (Like Atomkilla said). Fallout 3 lore says that Super Mutants can rip a PA apart with their bare hands, because BoS members seriously say they saw it happening.

About Midwest BoS, you really believe that a faction with a territory as large as the Legion would just retreat to their vault and become so well hidden that Lyons wouldn't be able to find them if they were still powerful? That would only show once again that somehow the Midwest BoS dwindled and got weakened so much somehow. Which once again supports what I said, that the wasteland was so dangerous that even a giant BoS faction couldn't prosper in it and lost all of their territory in a handful of decades? If whatever "killed" the power of a highly advanced, trained (these BoS soldiers actually enter live combat all the time) and equipped BoS that had control of thousands of miles of territory and didn't have shortage of recruits and supplies (because of their "contracts" with the tribes in their territory) is still around when Lyons would be passing there, I doubt it would be all friendly and "buddy buddy" with a new BoS appearing all of a sudden.

People are not saying that the BoS acting how it does in Fallout 3 is gamebreaking lore. They are saying that it makes no sense for the BoS to be there in the first place. I have no problem with them being all nice and wanting to help the wastelanders and I never said anything about it either.

So basically, most of your and Pwener arguments are stuff like:
Let's just discard all the previous games and all the dangers they show. Let's discard all the lore approved by Bethesda to justify that it makes perfect sense for the West Coast BoS to be in the Capital Wasteland. Let's discard all the difficulties that other BoS chapters have in the Fallout timeline, let's discard entire plots of Fallout games, let's even discard what the game is telling us and even contradicting itself.

You say Power Armor is supposed to be like a tank, I mention how power armor specifications that are established in previous games show it can't even fully stop a .308 round from a hunting rifle and what I get is a handwave. I mention how Fallout 3 says that Super Mutants can rip a power armor in half with their bare hands and remove the soldier from inside it like it was canned food and all I have is another handwave. Etc.
I start to think that there is no real arguments based on anything in the games you people can come up with.
Beth removes the DT concepts completely. because they believed it's too complex.
DT did briefly returns in New Vegas which made by much of the old Black Isle gang.
That was a typo, It's meant to be DR.
I type a lot of those, specially when I am typing quickly and don't have much time to proofread before posting. Sorry about that and thanks for pointing it out. I will fix that right away.
 
specially carrying little kids with them.
Wait, is this actually true? So, besides the wasteland being filled with danger ranging from Deathclaws to organized raider parties to warring tribes, BoS being already in decline by the events of Fallout 2, meaning their resources and number of soldiers was already low, most of the BoS soldiers being inexperienced in actual real combat because they only did VR combat, they also had to escort people that can't defend themselves? The expedition to the East Coast just sounds more and more stupid.


The writing of Fallout 3 just gets more and more idiotic each time i learn something i didn't know.
 
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Sarah Lyons was part of the Lyons original expedition when she was 3 years old.

Arthur Maxson was born in 2267 and at some point sent to the East Coast, since Lyons expedition departed in 2254, he had to be in different, later, expedition. And since he is 10 years old during FO3, he had to travel from the East Coast when he was quite young too.
 
Wait, is this actually true? So, besides the wasteland being filled with danger ranging from Deathclaws to organized raider parties to warring tribes, BoS being already in decline by the events of Fallout 2, meaning their resources and number of soldiers was already low, most of the BoS soldiers being inexperienced in actual real combat because they only did VR combat, they also had to escort people that can't defend themselves? The expedition to the East Coast just sounds more and more stupid.


The writing of Fallout 3 just gets more and more idiotic each time i learn something i didn't know.


Yeah, they took kids with them. Lots of non-combat personnel too.
 
I genuinely thought they only used actual soldiers for the expedition and not bring children of all people. There's probably a line in Fallout 3 that mentions this and i must have blocked it out because it would make this expedition even more dumb than it already was.

So children and non-combat personnel. More food and water needed to feed a bunch of more mouths and people that needed protection in case they ran into danger. It honestly just makes everything so much worse.
 
They saved twenty kids in the Pitt. Which is actually the first location of note they mention...

---

Caesar's Legion is encountered in Denver, traveling to the east (in the direction of Kansas), where their new headquarters is located. The Legion appears there once a year. Every few weeks a pair of scouts are sent east, if the radioactive dust storms have subsided for the season. Once they do, they'll head out. Once the Legion is discovered in Denver, every month that passes has a 25% chance that Legion slavers will go back to Caesar taking all their slaves with them.

Anton, the leader of the non-NCR salvagers in Denver, is from the Midwest and fled to Denver to escape Caesar's Legion. So it may be possible that the area is habitable.

Van Buren semi fanon stuff...
 
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I genuinely thought they only used actual soldiers for the expedition and not bring children of all people.
Don't forget they also brought scribes with them. Scribe Rothchild was one of them. They say Scribes are non-fighters.
 
Don't forget they also brought scribes with them. Scribe Rothchild was one of them. They say Scribes are non-fighters.


Look at this possible sub-plot from Van Buren...

---

In an effort to end the war once and for all, the Brotherhood began to use newly discovered subversive technology known as Stealth Boys. These devices could create a field of energy that would bend light around the user, thus making him virtually invisible to sight. This allowed Brotherhood operatives to penetrate deep into NCR territory for the gathering of intelligence. However, it was soon discovered that the devices had severe side effects: paranoia, delusions, and eventual schizophrenia were the major ones. The Brotherhood disallowed the use of Stealth Boys, and once again fell behind in their war effort.

Now the Brotherhood of Steel is facing yet another problem: the side effects of the Stealth Boys were not discovered until the team using them had already begun to feel their effect. When the team was disbanded, paranoia over the reason began to set in, and the team plotted against their own leaders. They stole the remaining Stealth Boys, fled the bunker as deserters, and formed a covert group known as the Circle of Steel. The goal of the CoS is to recover lost technology, and rebuild the glory of the Brotherhood at any cost.

--

Regardless of our opinion I think we can say Van Buren would have been better than 3 or 4. Especially in regards to the BoS.
 
Wasn't that then used for the Nightkins in New Vegas? It would have been actually cooler if it was for BoS instead.
 
I genuinely thought they only used actual soldiers for the expedition and not bring children of all people. There's probably a line in Fallout 3 that mentions this and i must have blocked it out because it would make this expedition even more dumb than it already was.

So children and non-combat personnel. More food and water needed to feed a bunch of more mouths and people that needed protection in case they ran into danger. It honestly just makes everything so much worse.

Again...it would be ridiculously easy for an army to cross the United States when they have power armor. Or just an army. There's also economies in every region we've visited too.

This isn't Attack on Titan. They don't live in fortified cities constantly under siege by monsters. Life goes on in the Wasteland.

And the idea of Deathclaws being everywhere would mean humanity was dying out--which it isn't.
 
Again...it would be ridiculously easy for an army to cross the United States when they have power armor. Or just an army. There's also economies in every region we've visited too.

This isn't Attack on Titan. They don't live in fortified cities constantly under siege by monsters. Life goes on in the Wasteland.

And the idea of Deathclaws being everywhere would mean humanity was dying out--which it isn't.
Risewild and others already explained that "it wouldn't be ridiculously easy for an army to cross the United States in power armor" when in fact they didn't even have an army and power armor doesn't make you into a super soldier (they also destroyed your argument that PA makes you immune to conventional weapons). How many times we have to say that the Brotherhood of Steel was already in decline and stagnant in Fallout 2?

At this point you and Pwener are just blatantly ignoring crucial information that destroy your "arguments". So stop fucking arguing. You have nothing that gives your arguments any weight.
 
Risewild and others already explained that "it wouldn't be ridiculously easy for an army to cross the United States in power armor" when in fact they didn't even have an army and power armor doesn't make you into a super soldier (they also destroyed your argument that PA makes you immune to conventional weapons). How many times we have to say that the Brotherhood of Steel was already in decline and stagnant in Fallout 2?

At this point you and Pwener are just blatantly ignoring crucial information that destroy your "arguments". So stop fucking arguing. You have nothing that gives your arguments any weight.

Actually, he just established that a professional military like...NCR....can fight the Brotherhood while your average spear chucking Legionaire or Raider is utterly helpless.

Basically because the arguments aren't actually refuting anything.

"High powered weapons which most people don't have can hurt the Brotherhood. Deathclaws, the most explictly dangerous creatures in the world, can hurt them."

That's evidence for my side, not the reverse.

Where is this army of Deathclaws and why are they attacking 500 Paladins?

They are ignoring information presented in games along with other people's arguments.

The argument so far has been, "High powered rifle wielding Legionaires and Raiders will attack an army of BoS paladins because they can't stomach them walking through their territory and will easily kill them all despite their power armor, massive numbers, plasma weapons, and more. They will also kill the auxillaries and support staff because the former Remnants of the United States military know nothing about keeping them safe. Also, the Deathclaws will form a massive band of hundreds to attack them."

Really?

Who is supposed to be attacking the BOS and why are they? What's the point?

Oh and no one has bothered to talk about the fact the BOS can seize or trade with any group or that we've seen many many communities in the games so far.
 
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