What are people's thoughts on how the Brotherhood is depicted in 3 and 4?

why are they attacking 500 Paladins?
At this point you're fucking trolling. There's no army of "500 paladins", they were in decline in Fallout 2, meaning low soldier count and resources. Most of the soldiers were inexperienced, most of them didn't had power armor and they weren't swimming in weapons and ammo.

Also, trade with who? BoS is easily one of the most infamous groups in the whole wasteland, very few people actually want to trade with them.

Bravo, you ignored 90% of the arguments made here with ingame evidence and cherry picked a specific one like you always do because you can't argue for shit. But keep believing a faction that is stagnant, low on soldiers and resources can somehow cross a wasteland filled with danger in every corner while having to protect children and scribes. Someday it will be true in some alternate dimension.

Don't bother replying because at this point you are just blantatly ignoring crucial information and i don't have the patience to deal with bullshit from you.
 
The argument so far has been, "High powered rifle wielding Legionaires and Raiders will attack an army of BoS paladins because they can't stomach them walking through their territory and will easily kill them all despite their power armor, massive numbers, plasma weapons, and more. They will also kill the auxillaries and support staff because the former Remnants of the United States military know nothing about keeping them safe. Also, the Deathclaws will form a massive band of hundreds to attack them."


What a blatant strawman. You should really start reading the actual posts, not just skimming through them, if even that.

As @Norzan and others pointed out - BoS doesn't have massive numbers. They are in decline and are desperate by the time of FO2.
They are dragging along the wastes on foot, having many scribes (non-combatants or of very little actual combat effectiveness), unarmed and children. Children. Not a bunch of soldiers wearing power armor. This is basically a big caravan with PA guys as guardians, the rest of the force being Recon guys. Your average armored dude might not be the easiest target, but an unarmed person is.

Think people wouldn't attack them? Drugged out psychos, organized bands of raiders, marauders looking for equipment and tech, CEASER'S LEGION? (Even if we discount Legion, there are still great many threats.)
Beasts are the least of their worries.
There are many ways one can lose people on a long and arduous journey, especially in large groups. Those are actually harder to keep in check than bands of 5-10 people. 10 BoS Paladins could arguably cross larger territories fairly easily. But here there are more of them, and they have a huge baggage.

Perhaps the most important factor here is the nature and climate. Mountains, canyons, rivers, deserts, duststorms, radiation, toxicity, rain, snow, hail, disease, dehydration, starvation. Power armor and plasma canons can't protect you from those, not in the long run. Not when you're having ill-equipped civilans and kids with you (because those other people besides PA guys are little more).
You think it's easy to keep a group of 10 people fed for a long time while crossing inhospitable terrain? How about a much, much larger group? (Your 500 Paladins number is ridiculous, but let's say it's that many - come on, go gather 500 dudes and walk with supplies you can carry on your back through the desert - lemme know the results when a handful of you make it back).
Even if you salvage and loot places like @TorontRayne pointed out, you cannot keep a big group on the constant move crossing the continent in less than a year in good condition.

And what about psychological pressure? You think every person could handle the stress of walking everyday for a year, through mud and shit, all the while looking after your family who hardly have any protection? You think internal conflict wouldn't happen, infighting, and factionalism?

A small recon group specially prepared and trained for such a journey might make it, with losses.
An essential Chapter exodus? No. That doesn't work.
 
Last edited:
An army of 500? I don't even think the West Coast BoS ever had that many people in them, let alone by the end of Fallout 2...

Oh man... Headcanon is too strong in this one... I give up...
More and more i believe CT Phipps and Pwener didn't actually played Fallout 2 or else they wouldn't be saying stuff like this about the Brotherhood of Steel. Or they didn't actually paid attention to the state of BoS in Fallout 2.
 
At this point you're fucking trolling. There's no army of "500 paladins", they were in decline in Fallout 2, meaning low soldier count and resources. Most of the soldiers were inexperienced, most of them didn't had power armor and they weren't swimming in weapons and ammo.

Also, trade with who? BoS is easily one of the most infamous groups in the whole wasteland, very few people actually want to trade with them.

Bravo, you ignored 90% of the arguments made here with ingame evidence and cherry picked a specific one like you always do because you can't argue for shit. But keep believing a faction that is stagnant, low on soldiers and resources can somehow cross a wasteland filled with danger in every corner while having to protect children and scribes. Someday it will be true in some alternate dimension.

Don't bother replying because at this point you are just blantatly ignoring crucial information and i don't have the patience to deal with bullshit from you.

I can still reply though right? ;)

For one they are not infamous in the entire Midwest...at least not yet. Two they could trade with groups/areas like these...

http://misc.thefullwiki.org/Quincy_(location)
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Brahmin_Wood
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Dirt_Haven
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Dead_Horses
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Springfield
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Kansas_City
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Junction_City
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Great_Bend
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Cold_Water
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Scott_City
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Newton
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Appleton
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Hawthorne_Army_Depot


---

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Montana_bunker

It is worth noting this bunker was listed as a location.

---
Also...CYBORGS.

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Cross

@Atomkilla Haha.
 
@TorontRayne

A lot of those are from Fallout Tactics, are we even sure Fallout 3 treats it as canon? The wiki page for most of those say it might even contradict canon. My point is that BoS wasn't exactly popular given how they were notorious for being isolationists and killing people to reach technology. I'm sure some would be willing to trade, but not all of them.
 
For one they are not infamous in the entire Midwest...at least not yet. Two they could trade with groups/areas like these...
I don't think trading with some towns is enough to keep an army without at least one stable supply line going for long time travel, not to mention there is not much the army can offer.
 
@TorontRayne

A lot of those are from Fallout Tactics, are we even sure Fallout 3 treats it as canon? The wiki page for most of those say it might even contradict canon. My point is that BoS wasn't exactly popular given how they were notorious for being isolationists and killing people to reach technology. I'm sure some would be willing to trade, but not all of them.

Broad Strokes canon entails it is canon unless something in a new game contradicts it. We keep going back to Tactics (and I have for the past...6 or so years) because it is vital to so many arguments. People say "What is in this region?" then they say in the next sentence "But forget that Tactics shit."

That Tactics shit still happened. Tons of towns that half the people here don't know about because they never liked the game. Towns with technology, gambling, drugs, food...Tribes that are not quick to start attacking Godlike shining Knights that have energy weapons. What are some common enemies in this shitty Midwest region?


Beastlords - main base destroyed in Tactics
Ghoul - live alongside humans
Human
Super mutant - wiped out in the region by the end of Tactics
Boom bug
Giant wasp
Giant cockroach
Radscorpion
Brahmin
Dog
Giant rat
Wolf
Hairy deathclaw
Baby deathclaw
Hairy deathclaw
Mother deathclaw
Iguana
Komodo dragon


Now I want to go on record and say Deathclaws were supposed to have hair in the first place, minor mutations like that are not impossible, and I don't know what the big deal is. That out of the way, none of these creatures are so numerous the region is teeming with them. SO the only obstacle we have is Raiders. All the other shit is food. Use your scouts men. Don't you have high tech sensors to detect giant walking Godzilla monsters?

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Northern_Commonwealth

Here is how it went down:

Dog City in Legion territory...Those Feral Dogs might seem special enough to warrant capitalization if you are a Legion Decanus with hockey pads on. Lyon's and his 50 or so Power Armored troops (and one baby) roll in and turn all the feral dogs into beef jerky. It lasts all the way to Montana where Lyon's secretly saunters off with his old pal Patroclus to have gay sex. They also resupply and tweak their servos on their shitty armor that doesn't stop bullets. Then they head off and magically teleport to THE PITT where they kill a bunch of Raiders and Troggs and take 20 babies as tribute. The End.


Atom said:
Without delving deep into WH40K, Space Marines are genetically modified superhumans who literally have around 20 organs more than homo sapiens, are 1-2m taller and the tech they possess can literally destroy tanks and endure direct tank gun hits because their armor is such a tremendous feat of technology. Space Marine, even without armor, could literally tear a fully equipped BoS Paladin in two, bare handed. They are that fucking strong.
So no, Brotherhood of Steel soldiers are not Space Marines. This is extremely important point that people seem to constantly forget. BoS are not super soldiers. Far from it.

While I agree with you for the most part...I was pointing out the BoS has a soldier that is modified cybernetically to where they don't need water or food.


----

It wasn't AN ARMY DUDES. It was 50 men at the max. That is a Platoon.

This 500 number Phipps said is bullshit.

--
Not much to offer? How about kill all the savages and steal their shit? Pretty much what the Midwest BoS did.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
More and more i believe CT Phipps and Pwener didn't actually played Fallout 2 or else they wouldn't be saying stuff like this about the Brotherhood of Steel. Or they didn't actually paid attention to the state of BoS in Fallout 2.

The BOS have had 200 years to build up their numbers. It's the strongest faction in California after NCR until the latter wipes them out. I'm judging the size of Elder Lyons chapter by the fact they are able to fight a war against Super Mutants, the Enclave, and more even AFTER having half of their number break away to form the Outcasts. We've got something like 50 Brothers of Steel "on camera" and that's assuming you assume the population numbers of Fallout 3 are literally true.

Which is ridiculous.

The Mojave Chapter has over a hundred members "on camera" and that's after being massacred in a war and fleeing another war.

Remember, Bethesda makes "approximations" not literally.

As for Fallout 2, I'm pretty sure I know it better than you guys. It's a game which gets shit on a lot on these forums despite being the best game in the franchise--including over NV. Its only flaw is the Hubologists can't win.

:)

It wasn't AN ARMY DUDES. It was 50 men at the max. That is a Platoon.

This 500 number Phipps said is bullshit.

--
Not much to offer? How about kill all the savages and steal their shit? Pretty much what the Midwest BoS did.

There's 50 members in the game proper and not counting the patrols!

And that's after theyr'e devastated from a decade of war with Super Mutants and split apart from the Outcasts.

And there's way more members than we see on-screen because there's not 14 people in Megaton, it's an actual town with hundreds of people living in it. Lore vs. Gameplay. The numbers in the game are at least 10 times the number in game and even if they weren't, if you added the number of Outcasts in game to the BoS then you have at least a hundred.

Edit:

Also, people actually believe Caesar's Legion would still exist if they fought the BoS? A group of five Enclave soldiers in the Enclave inflicted devastating casualties on the Legion and butchered everyone they fought during the Battle of Hoover Dam. If the Legion attacked an entire chapter of the BOS (which is a small town) then they would not exist.
 
Last edited:
Doesn't change the fact that the BoS did not send that many troops because they could not EVER spare 500 troops on a wild goose chase.

The BOS has done this before. The Eastern BoS' backstory is just the backstory of the Midwestern Brotherhood of Steel.

Besides, they can spare one chapter before the War.

After the war, they probably sent Arthur Maxson and the Lyons off to ensure the BOS wasn't wiped out and that it could rebuid.

How many chapters do you think the BoS has? I'm thinking dozens since there's a Council of High Elders and Lyons is "just" an Elder.
 
The BOS have had 200 years to build up their numbers. It's the strongest faction in California after NCR
The brotherhood doesn't build its numbers though. Even after they were crushed under the NCR's feet, their philosophy didn't change ; just ask Veronica how to join them. "You're born into it. My parents, their parents, so on.". Until the war, they never needed numbers to be strong. Just look how many soldiers Maxson sends to attack the Unity's HQ. Three men. And they come from the most populated, active and advanced chapter of the brotherhood, not from a minor chapter like the Mojave's. Yes, three men IS an army, in the elder's eyes. An army he actually had to beg for in front of the council of elders.

Considering that they needed three times less resources to fuck the NCR in the butt when they bombed Redding's gold mines, his philosophy made sense... Until they had to face an actual army in a real war. A brotherhood could beat anyone in combat, true. But in war ? That's a totally different scenario.

I'm judging the size of Elder Lyons chapter by the fact they are able to fight a war against Super Mutants
Without any kind of success for twenty years. Their main positions could be overrun in a single day if their luck runs out, and they backed away from several of them because they couldn't hold them. Their intel couldn't tell them anything about the location of the enemy for twenty years, they have no backup, virtually nobody to recruit, half of their men have abandoned them and they don't have a single supply line. It's a miracle they were still alive after a month in this situation, actually.

the Enclave
They didn't engage in any kind of contact before activating Liberty Prime, because they would have been exterminated. Sarah Lyons herself admits it. Just like they didn't attack the Enclave by themselves in Fallout 2, they were backed by the NCR when they finally took action. And at this point, the Enclave was already pretty low.

and more even AFTER having half of their number break away to form the Outcasts. We've got something like 50 Brothers of Steel "on camera" and that's assuming you assume the population numbers of Fallout 3 are literally true.
Hell, 50 people is about 15 times the resources Maxson agreed to allocate to attack the Unity's HQ, and he had all the resources of the Brotherhood central headquarters, which included freaking airships. And he had to BEG these three men from the council of elders. The entire bunker's only entrance is protected by two knights only...
50 people is a huge number for the brotherhood. Helios one was one of the biggest battles the brotherhood ever took part in, and it cannot hold much more than a few dozen people. Let's assume that they had 50 people in there, aka, an entire chapter's militant branch. The NCR outnumbered them 15 to 1. That makes 750 NCR Soldiers besieging Helios One. That's huge numbers when it comes to Fallout, even for the NCR. If anything, I doubt that there were more than 20-30 Brotherhood soldiers holding Helios, really.

We also see this again in Fallout tactics. In their eyes, four men is more than enough to attack an entire raider fortress, evacuate resources from a hostile city or liberate a city. They never operated with a war mindset, they were always in skirmish numbers and tactics. Always.
It made sense in the first decades after the bombs, since there was no nation to fight, no borders to defend. And they stayed in that mindset, refusing to accept that the world changed, and they needed to change as well. Their refusal to change is their demise, just like it was Japan's demise when they refused to take interest in the outside world, until the outside world came knocking on their door with gatling guns.

Hell, Elijah could easily rally loyalists, but he doesn't. He's an old timey brotherhood member, with old brotherhood mindset : with the right tools, you can cripple a country with one man.
Redding is the proof of that. Graham is the proof of that. Ulysses is the proof of that. Elijah could have been another proof of his own philosophy, too bad he decided to fuck with THE mailman.
The brotherhood never needed to have an army. Hell, when they exiled every single rebel, these guys were so few in numbers they had to actually recruit auxiliaries, just to stay relevant.

The Mojave Chapter has over a hundred members "on camera" and that's after being massacred in a war and fleeing another war.
A hundred ? Hell, I only count about twenty, at most, plus a handful of patrols. Remember that the canon states that the courier CAN exterminate them if he has the element of surprise. A single man. And it's the one and only time in Fallout where the defeated faction is not only beaten, but actually exterminated. Every single one of them.
It wouldn't really be believable if the chapter was made out of a hundred people. The courier may be tough, but not THAT tough.

New Vegas is probably the only title where what you see on camera is not an approximation, or something that requires you to tell yourself "alright, but there's plenty more people in reality than the ones we see". Except for the battle of Hoover Dam,
 
Last edited:
The BOS has done this before. The Eastern BoS' backstory is just the backstory of the Midwestern Brotherhood of Steel.

Besides, they can spare one chapter before the War.

After the war, they probably sent Arthur Maxson and the Lyons off to ensure the BOS wasn't wiped out and that it could rebuid.

How many chapters do you think the BoS has? I'm thinking dozens since there's a Council of High Elders and Lyons is "just" an Elder.

That is the most interesting speculative fan wank question I have been asked in some time. All the ones we know about commonly would be one in California, Nevada, D.C, and at least one in the Midwest around Chicago...if not more. It is key to remember several ships left and crashed over the region. My thinking is Vault 0 would be abandoned/destroyed which is why there is no army of killer robots taking over the Midwest. Additionally you have the one mentioned in passing in Montana which I THINK is one of the most interesting prospects in regards to the BoS. That puts us at 5. Let's say Bethesda throws in a reference to Bawls or something like that and we count PoS. That puts us at 6. You can't stretch much farther than 6 without speculating hardcore and stretching lore even further although did they not mention the Outcasts reconciling? They would be a 7th Chapter. If you count the Circle of Steel as a separate Chapter you have 8. I would bet money on Seattle and Detroit having some BoS presence due to tech in the region.

I believe the Midwestern BoS still have their original three bases actually. The other ones were above ground FOB's for fighting off the Calculator.

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Bunker_Alpha
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Bunker_Beta
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Bunker_Delta

They would not be projecting all over the region at this point years down the line. Personally I think the ending where you just kill the Calculator is the canon one. If the Enclave are in Chicago you can bet the BoS is laying low. Just like in Fallout 2. Or near dead. Considering how far apart you they are you would likely consider them seperate...look at Nevada to California. Just that far away and you get the BoS doubting their mission.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewer?hl=en_US&mid=1puuQVpbfh4ofYflJxJPB6iul6JQ&ll=40.1686816380787,-107.86414649062499&z=5


Now with 76...guess what?

Check your canon folks. Lyon's stopped through to say hello to the SECRET NEVER BEFORE SEEN CHAPTER IN WEST VIRGINIA....COUNTRY ROADS.

GycmV0R.jpg


Circles are possible sites with BoS presence or likely areas dispersed far enough apart.

My circles are off too, but it doesn't matter. Nothing concrete aside from nobody ever mentioning Montana. Plus look at the possible travel route. It is on a road. Important since the route is through mountains.

Georgia is the home of the Rangers, so it deserves a spot. If the BoS can survive in California, the damn Rangers could in Georgia. The sooner the BoS absorbs another group like...The Enclave Remnants the better.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Circles are possible sites with BoS presence or likely areas dispersed far enough apart.

Well that's interesting. My question would then be; what other chapters were active during the events of Fallout 1?

The way I saw it, the only one that existed in 2241 was the Lost Hills Bunker. Hell, that's where the Elder Council was stationed.
 
Last edited:
Well that's interesting. My question would then be; what other chapters were active during the events of Fallout?

The way I saw it, the only one that existed in 2241 was the Lost Hills Bunker. Hell, that's where the Elder Council was stationed.

Only the one we know about. The Mutants and Enclave triggered their change in tactics.



Damn these Raiders keep penetrating my armor with their broken bones.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
I don't see a reason why the Brotherhood of Steel wouldn't have dozens of chapters spreading out their territory underground. It was able to fight the NCR Republic for a time after all. It's a religious cult and they tend to become large groups with children even when they live in compounds.

After all, if there's a Council of High Elders and Elders each control a chapter, that implies a large number of members.

Mind you, I imagine most of them were killed in the NCR-Brotherhood war.

In one ending in Fallout, the BOS conquers all of California.

A hundred ? Hell, I only count about twenty, at most, plus a handful of patrols. Remember that the canon states that the courier CAN exterminate them if he has the element of surprise. A single man. And it's the one and only time in Fallout where the defeated faction is not only beaten, but actually exterminated. Every single one of them.
It wouldn't really be believable if the chapter was made out of a hundred people. The courier may be tough, but not THAT tough.

Well, the method the Courier is expected to do is that he nukes their bunker and kills them all. That's a bit like Luke Skywalker blowing up the death Star. Yes, he killed a million or so Imperial soldiers but the method is important to think.

The Vault Dweller wipes out the Super Mutant army by nuclear bomb for example.

Take note the Courier can ALSO kill all of the Legion soldiers in Caesar's camp but are we to assume that's only 20 guys? There's certain exceptions to reality for fun gameplay. I'm just saying.

Hell, 50 people is about 15 times the resources Maxson agreed to allocate to attack the Unity's HQ, and he had all the resources of the Brotherhood central headquarters, which included freaking airships. And he had to BEG these three men from the council of elders. The entire bunker's only entrance is protected by two knights only...

Mind you, the BOS are at their most isolated period and barely take the Master's threat seriously. They have a severe lack of belief in the threat of the Master's army and it's not until he has too many soldiers to deal with that it attacks their home.

50 people is a huge number for the brotherhood. Helios one was one of the biggest battles the brotherhood ever took part in, and it cannot hold much more than a few dozen people. Let's assume that they had 50 people in there, aka, an entire chapter's militant branch. The NCR outnumbered them 15 to 1. That makes 750 NCR Soldiers besieging Helios One. That's huge numbers when it comes to Fallout, even for the NCR. If anything, I doubt that there were more than 20-30 Brotherhood soldiers holding Helios, really.

It is a military base for NCR and the largest one after the airport (even larger than Camp Golf). So there was definitely a large build up of forces during the siege. The question of how many soldiers remain after suffering so many extensive casualties that a fairly mid-level member becomes Elder in Elijah's place.

And even in its reduced numbers, it's terrifying to the factions involved so that House, NCR, and Caesar want them dead before they move.

Hell, Elijah could easily rally loyalists, but he doesn't. He's an old timey brotherhood member, with old brotherhood mindset : with the right tools, you can cripple a country with one man.

Elijah actually seems less interested in soldiers than technological solutions. Sadly, the problem of being a Scribe than a paladin. Ironically, Elijah probably could have annihilated NCR if he'd gotten the machinery working but his desire for the Solar Gun caused him avoid keeping ahead of the NCR military.

Take note the Brotherhood was able to evacuate halfway across Nevada fairly quickly with civilians and children.

The brotherhood never needed to have an army. Hell, when they exiled every single rebel, these guys were so few in numbers they had to actually recruit auxiliaries, just to stay relevant.

Tactics has them build an empire, which the BOS was never interested in doing until them. The exception being Elijah and Arthur.
 
Last edited:
It was able to fight the NCR Republic for a time after all.

If you're referring to the BoS/NCR war, we have not received any more information on that end and what we do have on it is not very much either. For all we know, by 2287 they are still fighting over control of California.

I'd like to believe it's still a stalemate and if the NCR lost to Mr. House, the Courier or Caesar, which are all more likely than the NCR victory, I don't see the NCR steamrolling the BoS any time soon.
 
If you're referring to the BoS/NCR war, we have not received any more information on that end and what we do have on it is not very much either. For all we know, by 2287 they are still fighting over control of California.

I'd like to believe it's still a stalemate and if the NCR lost to Mr. House, the Courier or Caesar, which are all more likely than the NCR victory, I don't see the NCR steamrolling the BoS any time soon.

Doubtful.

If NCR was fighting a full-scale war with BoS at that time, there would most likely be no Mojave Campaign. California is, well, home, higher priority assets are endangered, brahmin barons and other major economy movers wouldn't stand for war on their doorstep, and public opinion would ruin the regime which decided to divert their resources to the war with Legion instead of dealing with a much more immediate threat.

No, the war is over. NCR won. They pillaged BoS bunkers, took their power armors and re-purposed them for their own units, took their tech, took their weapons, destroyed everything that could not be salvaged.
There are probably stragglers here and there, remnants still engaging in an occasional skirmish or guerrilla action, but nothing of great importance or dangerous enough that NCR would bother with a major military operation. Perhaps, as someone pointed out, there are couple of active bunkers in lock down that NCR keeps in check, but doesn't take immediate action because they are afraid of the dangers of the nuke self-destruction. There might be a bunker here or there that is still hidden, where BoS is relatively safe, but it's nothing that could endanger the Bear, not in short term and most likely not in long term either.

BoS is old, spent, decayed and stagnant. They are without fresh blood, fresh resources, surrounded and heavily outnumbered by the best equipped military force on the West of US, maybe even the whole US. Everything is working against them, their way of life, philosophy and religion more than anything. Sure, NCR is not at their best shape at the moment, but the Brotherhood... it's taking its last breaths. Delaying the inevitable.

Brotherhood is gone.
 
Actually, not apparently the case.

I suspect the Mojave Peace Treaty was a basis for a larger one because the Lost Hills elders are active in helping Arthur Maxson become his best dictator self.

They're alive and kicking again and apparently supported his efforts to rebuild the BOS on the East Coast.
 
Back
Top