What did Bethesda actually do better than Black Isle?

Still does not compute. I can see commanders of army regular units carrying ceremonial swords as another symbol of their position while leading large-scale operations, but behind enemy lines commandos would use conventional weapons like sub-machine guns, knives, pistols.

Swords are a symbol anyway and not an actual military weapon since the invention of machine gun I believe? They became obsolete somewhere around then. So, it's very difficult to come up with a feasible explanation for infiltrator units carrying such weapons at all (they are heavy, large and completely useless compared to more compact weapons.
 
DexterMorgan said:
Still does not compute. I can see commanders of army regular units carrying ceremonial swords as another symbol of their position while leading large-scale operations, but behind enemy lines commandos would use conventional weapons like sub-machine guns, knives, pistols.

Swords are a symbol anyway and not an actual military weapon since the invention of machine gun I believe? They became obsolete somewhere around then. So, it's very difficult to come up with a feasible explanation for infiltrator units carrying such weapons at all (they are heavy, large and completely useless compared to more compact weapons.
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The Japanese military all carried swords during World War 2.
 
DexterMorgan said:
No, only their officers did and it was for traditional/ceremonial purposes like beheading captives, and NOT as an actual combat weapon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_98_Military_Sword

Quote: "The Shin gunto is a style of japanese tachi designated as part of the uniform for officers"
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Yes, and there were a ton of officers.
Also, I don't see any reason to assume that the Chinese in Fallout 3 used them in battle so that point is rather moot.
 
Comparing the games on an even playing field is impossible. Fallout did what it could with the graphics of the time - yes, they are dated, but to be honest I still find them quite enjoyable and still play F1 and F2 from time to time. As far as the graphics go for Fallout 3, yes, the wasteland is actually very lovely, but character models are lacking, compared to other next-gen games out presently. It just doesn't really measure up. Story-wise, there's no comparison.

Ignoring the voice acting/text debate, the very meat and bones of the story of Fallout 1/2 is so far beyond anything that the third game has to offer. Even if you want to peddle the argument that the long drawn out conversations are unrealistic, they could still have 'shorter' conversations that were better written than the ones presented in F3. The side quests in the first fallout were unbelievably enjoyable as a whole, and so were the ones in the second game. In the third game thus far I haven't found a side-quest that I enjoyed, just a lot that made me scratch my head in disbelief (vampires? wtf.) SPECIAL was implemented in the first game with extreme care and attention to detail, until it was refined to work almost exactly like a PnP system - this was what it was created to do. The system in F3 is unbalanced, and often-times makes relatively no sense, and therefore is less entertaining. When I made my character have low-luck, I did it on purpose. It may be weird in a sort of masochistic way, but I always thought it was hilarious when horrible things happened to my character in the first two. In this game my luck is low, and nothing happens. It doesn't seem to affect anything.

But like every other topic on here, these things have been said, have been pointed out, have been beaten to death. Bethesda didn't do anything, in my opinion, better than Black Isle/Interplay did, except maybe not going bankrupt. I wish they would.
 
Sander, we're talking about swords in D.C. area. They may have had them in Alaska (and to my knowledge Chinese do NOT have a tradition of issuing military swords at all), but there is no way to place them is such number is D.C. area without canon rape.

What PV suggested that they may have been issued to infiltrator units that made it as far as D.C. but I countered that with the fact that swords are not used as combat weapons and there's no reason for infiltrator units to have them at all.
 
DexterMorgan said:
Sander, we're talking about swords in D.C. area. They may have had them in Alaska (and to my knowledge Chinese do NOT have a tradition of issuing military swords at all), but there is no way to place them is such number is D.C. area without canon rape.

What PV suggested that they may have been issued to infiltrator units that made it as far as D.C. but I countered that with the fact that swords are not used as combat weapons and there's no reason for infiltrator units to have them at all.
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It's obvious that Bethesda went with the route that DC was invaded by the Chinese, the abundance of Chinese texts and dead soldiers should show this quite clearly. To search for any other explanation seems somewhat silly, especially considering Bethesda's lack of respect for canon. :P
 
Which = canon rape, i.e. my original point ;) You can also call it a cheap excuse to sneak swords into an Obl... I mean into a Fallout game. (and I actually typed that as is with no premeditation).
 
Pope Viper said:
Eh, I'm not defending it, just an idea.

And there are methods of concealment
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But why bother? When you infiltrate you leave everything behind, and smuggle yourself in. the chinese ghouls you run into are complete down to their uniforms if I recall, and chinese Assault rifles, as well as the swords. The swords make absolutely no sense in the game from any standpoint. DC is horribly far in-land for them to have invaded to, and if the US were bombed, I doubt they'd have moved in. Especially since, at least to me, it seems that the game assumes most of the world was bombed, including China. I could imagine one or two being around, as war trophies, but EVERY GODDAMN SWORD in the game is one, no matter where you go. They all have the same model, the same style, same look. It's just lame to me, and YES, SHEER LAZINESS. I do not care what you say in that regard, "there are a lot of melee weapons," uh huh. Brass knuckles, spiked brass knuckles, sledgehammer, assorted variety of knives, the shiskebob, and ONE TYPE OF SWORD; the Chinese officer's sword. Sheer stupidity.
 
Pope Viper said:
Infiltrators, maybe?
Click to expand...

You hit it right on the head.

There was at least one active cell in DC befoe the bombs went off, who were there, presumably to gather intelligence before the invasion and once the invasion commenced to start sabotaging stuff.

It's not unconcievable that they had equipment and uniforms from their home country for when (in their eyes) the invasion was going well, had reached them and then they were able to link up and join their forces. They'd have probably kept it hidden at first but, after the bombs fell, there were no real sides anymore and so they didn't need to hide and instead used what they had as well as what they could find.
 
ScottXeno said:
Pope Viper said:
Eh, I'm not defending it, just an idea.

And there are methods of concealment
Click to expand...

But why bother? When you infiltrate you leave everything behind, and smuggle yourself in. the chinese ghouls you run into are complete down to their uniforms if I recall, and chinese Assault rifles, as well as the swords. The swords make absolutely no sense in the game from any standpoint. DC is horribly far in-land for them to have invaded to, and if the US were bombed, I doubt they'd have moved in. Especially since, at least to me, it seems that the game assumes most of the world was bombed, including China. I could imagine one or two being around, as war trophies, but EVERY GODDAMN SWORD in the game is one, no matter where you go. They all have the same model, the same style, same look. It's just lame to me, and YES, SHEER LAZINESS. I do not care what you say in that regard, "there are a lot of melee weapons," uh huh. Brass knuckles, spiked brass knuckles, sledgehammer, assorted variety of knives, the shiskebob, and ONE TYPE OF SWORD; the Chinese officer's sword. Sheer stupidity.
Click to expand...

I truly hope you're not trying to defend BS's laziness.

Ok, to address your comment regarding infiltration.

We had how many terrorists infiltrate the US and carried out attacks using commercial jet liners?

It is not inconceivable, it's more believable than a lot for crap BS put in there.
 
RayvenQ1985 said:
Pope Viper said:
Infiltrators, maybe?
Click to expand...

You hit it right on the head.

There was at least one active cell in DC befoe the bombs went off, who were there, presumably to gather intelligence before the invasion and once the invasion commenced to start sabotaging stuff.

It's not unconcievable that they had equipment and uniforms from their home country for when (in their eyes) the invasion was going well, had reached them and then they were able to link up and join their forces. They'd have probably kept it hidden at first but, after the bombs fell, there were no real sides anymore and so they didn't need to hide and instead used what they had as well as what they could find.
Click to expand...


Okay, let's, for a moment, assume that this is exactly what was intended. And actually, it probably is what was intended. There was one cell, how many guys would have been in that cell? There can't have been many, there's just no way to conceal such a thing as a whole army in Washington DC. Yes, the United States is very diverse, but we're also talking about a time of war, against the Chinese. Need I remind everyone of the internment camps for the Japanese during WWII, and we are talking about a retro-50's futuristic game with a lot of the same mentalities as an average american of the 50's. Even if they weren't held, it would still rouse suspicion. So we're going to go with a small cell, roughly, I don't know, 25-45 men? How many swords has everyone found in their playthroughs, because I've found hundreds, all over the place, spread out from one side to the other of DC. And yeah, 200 or so years is a long time, things get looted, moved around, but what about the chinese ghouls or whatever? You'd think they'd have held on to that stuff. And THEY don't make sense in of themselves, what the hell are they even doing? No mission objective? They weren't feral, I don't believe (I don't think that was in their description.) It just doesn't jive. I understand, it's just a game, so most people would say, "who cares?" But when people run around talking abuot how "immersive" it is, things like this really stick out, like a glaring thumb, and I can't help but point to it and say "go fuck your immersiveness!"
 
Pope Viper said:
ScottXeno said:
Pope Viper said:
Eh, I'm not defending it, just an idea.

And there are methods of concealment
Click to expand...

But why bother? When you infiltrate you leave everything behind, and smuggle yourself in. the chinese ghouls you run into are complete down to their uniforms if I recall, and chinese Assault rifles, as well as the swords. The swords make absolutely no sense in the game from any standpoint. DC is horribly far in-land for them to have invaded to, and if the US were bombed, I doubt they'd have moved in. Especially since, at least to me, it seems that the game assumes most of the world was bombed, including China. I could imagine one or two being around, as war trophies, but EVERY GODDAMN SWORD in the game is one, no matter where you go. They all have the same model, the same style, same look. It's just lame to me, and YES, SHEER LAZINESS. I do not care what you say in that regard, "there are a lot of melee weapons," uh huh. Brass knuckles, spiked brass knuckles, sledgehammer, assorted variety of knives, the shiskebob, and ONE TYPE OF SWORD; the Chinese officer's sword. Sheer stupidity.
Click to expand...

I truly hope you're not trying to defend BS's laziness.

Ok, to address your comment regarding infiltration.

We had how many terrorists infiltrate the US and carried out attacks using commercial jet liners?

It is not inconceivable, it's more believable than a lot for crap BS put in there.
Click to expand...

How did you infer me defending their laziness, unless you mean Pope Viper? If anything, I am railing AGAINST it, it pisses me off. It's one of the glaring differences between the first Fallout and this Fallout. People in other threads who have defended the new game say "the graphics are so pretty, the combat system is so awesome, ect ect." But they neglect that the one thing that hasn't changed since 1997 is the ability to have an attention to DETAIL. The first game had an amazing attention to detail. This game lacks in almost every aspect.
 
ScottXeno said:
RayvenQ1985 said:
Pope Viper said:
Infiltrators, maybe?
Click to expand...

You hit it right on the head.

There was at least one active cell in DC befoe the bombs went off, who were there, presumably to gather intelligence before the invasion and once the invasion commenced to start sabotaging stuff.

It's not unconcievable that they had equipment and uniforms from their home country for when (in their eyes) the invasion was going well, had reached them and then they were able to link up and join their forces. They'd have probably kept it hidden at first but, after the bombs fell, there were no real sides anymore and so they didn't need to hide and instead used what they had as well as what they could find.
Click to expand...


Okay, let's, for a moment, assume that this is exactly what was intended. And actually, it probably is what was intended. There was one cell, how many guys would have been in that cell? There can't have been many, there's just no way to conceal such a thing as a whole army in Washington DC. Yes, the United States is very diverse, but we're also talking about a time of war, against the Chinese. Need I remind everyone of the internment camps for the Japanese during WWII, and we are talking about a retro-50's futuristic game with a lot of the same mentalities as an average american of the 50's. Even if they weren't held, it would still rouse suspicion. So we're going to go with a small cell, roughly, I don't know, 25-45 men? How many swords has everyone found in their playthroughs, because I've found hundreds, all over the place, spread out from one side to the other of DC. And yeah, 200 or so years is a long time, things get looted, moved around, but what about the chinese ghouls or whatever? You'd think they'd have held on to that stuff. And THEY don't make sense in of themselves, what the hell are they even doing? No mission objective? They weren't feral, I don't believe (I don't think that was in their description.) It just doesn't jive. I understand, it's just a game, so most people would say, "who cares?" But when people run around talking abuot how "immersive" it is, things like this really stick out, like a glaring thumb, and I can't help but point to it and say "go fuck your immersiveness!"
Click to expand...

Yeah, I wasn't trying to explain away the fact that there are a lot of officers swords, I also find that slightly odd.

As for how many? Well, let's see, I'm sure you could get away with a couple dozen of you being immigrant/cheap labour in a food processing plant (You'd want to keep your numbers small to lower the risk of discovery). Which is what you saw. As for the other chinese you encountered, they could be remnants of other cells and/or descended from said remnants

AS for the Ghouls (AKA Chinese Remnants), well, the world has ended, bombs have fallen and they have been mutated by radioactivity. After all that do you think they'd try and continue their original objective, when they don't even know for sure whether their country has survived, whether any of their countries military have survived? So what where they doing? let's see, they had a fairly intact place where they could shelter in, they had weapons, ammunition and other things they needed, so it seems pretty clear to me that they were keeping hold of what they percieved as their territory and protecting it from outside invaders.
 
For over two hundred years. Yeah. Right.

I can see that, though, and agree. They would probably try to retain it, maybe. Or they might disband and try to attach themselves to a larger ghoul community. I don't know. The whole thing with the Chinese Remnants makes absolutely no sense at all, from a storyline perspective, from a real perspective, from any perspective.
 
ScottXeno said:
For over two hundred years. Yeah. Right.

I can see that, though, and agree. They would probably try to retain it, maybe. Or they might disband and try to attach themselves to a larger ghoul community. I don't know. The whole thing with the Chinese Remnants makes absolutely no sense at all, from a storyline perspective, from a real perspective, from any perspective.
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Er, they are Ghouls Remember, they can live that long.

It does make some sense, though I'll agree with you we've not been given enough of that information for it to fully make sense, so we have to fill in the gaps ourselves.

Hell, maybe since when they first came to the country before the bombs and invasion, they probably trusted nobody (as everyone around them was their enemy) and so the reason why they've stuck together, in the same place and are hostile to anyone who isn't (or even who is) their kind.
 
I wasn't indicating that they would have died, I was simply stating that it seemed rather odd that they would have defended that one location for TWO HUNDRED YEARS. I mean, come on, it's not rocket science here. You are still, for all intents and purposes, alive. You are trapped in enemy territory, the world seems destroyed, you have no idea what happened at home, and you bottle yourselves up in a building and, and do what? Wait for some vault dweller to stroll in and blow you all to kingdom come?


Come on!
 
Well for a start, you're trapped in enemy territory (you don't even know if there is any friendly territory anywhere anymore), except you have somewhere you can fortify and reasonably defend (Except for that one vault dweller but he was just lucky :P), seems like it's a very sensible idea to stay put.

The world seems destroyed, as far as you know, your original objective is both superfluous and not viable, so what would you do, you'd try and stay alive and survive wouldn't you? Where better to do that in a building you can secure.

That as opposed to wandering about what is left of the wasteland, risking serious injury or death from anything or anyone that may be out there.
 
That doesn't make any sense though. You are trapped, yes. Okay, I would give them, oh, ten years, and that's being generous. Ten years they'd stay holed up in that place. But eventually they are going to start wondering, eventually they are going to start worrying. What happened to my family? What happened to my country? How can I get home? Is there even a way home? You can't answer these questions in a building, you have to go out, and find the answer. None of it makes sense, and Bethesda does a fantastic job of making senseless stories, don't they?


I get that they are trying to defend that one place, together. They don't really do a good job at it, but considering how easy everything else goes down, I guess they are as strong as any other enemy out there, so they could, against most of the enemies in F3, defend themselves, except of course the vault dweller, who isn't lucky, just overpowerful. If it were me, though, I'd have left that stupid building a long time ago, and tried to find my way home. Even ghoul's travel. Harold, for example, though his presence in the game makes as much sense as the Chinese Remnant's does, heh.
 
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