What is it with people and the immortal dog?

Please, do remember that features are not in a vacuum. They interact with one another to create a whole experience. So bad AI combined with mortality of characters creates some tension before each fight, you can never be sure of how it's going to turn out. In the meantime in F3 you have unkillable bullet sponges that work as glorified meatshields for you. It completely ruins any semblance of tension and immersion in the game.
And remember that creators of F1 had limited resources, working on what was essentially a small side project made by a small studio, while Bethesda's F3 was a major release they could put all their power and resources into. There is a difference between omitting something out of laziness and out of necessity. Making a good AI work in Fallout 1 would devour a lot of resources, resources they couldn't spare. Fallout 3 had all the possible factors working for it, big budget, a guarantee of commercial success, big, experienced studio of creators. But it still didn't deliver.
 
While I agree that Bethesda should have spent time on the AI, you're wrong about Fallout 3's companions. They can all die, unless you count story-necessary NPCs. So, while none of them really engaged me, they all had the ability to die. If you try to use them as a meatshield, you're going to be terribly disappointed. But yeah, smarter AI is a better solution than immortal bullet sponges.
 
@MessedUpPro:
I think I implied the laziness factor, but it wasn't actually pointing at Beth, but at the argument that "it doesn't matter because modders can fix it". It does matter. In fact, it matters more. If a few modders can fix it, then it means they just tossed out an unfinished product. Keep in mind I do not deny BI did the same, although as someone else stated, at least I know their reasons. But this is really not that relevant to the topic, and reminding every time that I'm aware when another game has a flaw, even a shared one, would be pretty much unpractical.
Also, criticism is valid even if it was there on the older games, first and foremost because it doesn't mean you don't criticize it for the old games, and secondly because with new tools one should expect things to get better, not worse. And immortal companions, IMO, are something that makes it worse. Now I do not only have bad AI, but I also have a companion that I just naturalize that will always be to absorb bullets for me, instead of a companion that I can care about. If there isn't a possibility of losing it, a lot of bonding is gone, along with any motivation to actually engage in fights instead of letting it win by insistence.
 
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Hi, also a former lurker here.

I honestly can't find any good reason to have immortal NPCs in a RPG title, be they companions or other NPCs.
It does seem to me to be lazy game design, if your story, in a game that allows aggression against anyone at anytime does not make it possible to complete the main quest without the help of one NPC or another, that more often than not leads to story railroading, because there is no need to create alternative solutions to your story, and that leads to stupid inconsistencies, like "I need You, PC to save my daughter from Baddie#1, cause I'm so old and frail" and then proceeds to yell at you when you put two bullets in the back of his head with a high powered rifle, and when you find his daughter, you find out that immunity to bullets is actually hereditary.
Then the question becomes: Why did he need your help anyway?

I understand the fact that alternative solutions where all the information necessary for your quest can be found written down is much simpler to do if it includes some pre-war McGuffin, but if you can't find a solution that does not impede the players freedom of playing or roleplaying as they want or like, then find a job that you're actually good at and let someone who can find these solutions do it.

Also, if we are looking at Fallout as a franchise that shows a depressing and somewhat realistic post-apocalyptic world, where people could surely die in a crossfire that had nothing to do with them and their motivations then the fact that they die, should end the quest not make them instantly ghoulified, breaking the rules established by the story, just so they can tell you that they are really thirsty and it be real nice if you could finish their quest by giving them a bottle of water.

About the companion issue - I don't think that there should be immortal story essential companions. If there is a quest to deliver a scientist to someplace and in the end he gives you the SCIENCE! information required to complete your mission in some high tech area, there is no way he will recite you a research paper from the top of his head, he probably gives you a holotape, and I'll be damned if you can't find that in his pocket or on his corpse if he dies. If however it's his skills you require, then there should be some other guy who can do the same thing or some other way that your guy can do it, whether through the science skill or a manual, or whatever.

Also on the issue of companions I find their inability to interact with other people other than the PC and the game world incredibly annoying. It was something that I found horribly wrong with F3/NV, and more recently in Pillars of Eternia. An example from FNV is that if you aren't a gun-wielding character you will find it impossible to teach the misfits how to fire their guns properly, because you don't have the necessary skill, even though Boone is (un)happily trotting around and well he was a sniper in the elite First Recon so he should know how to pull the trigger better than Guns[30] check.

End of first rant.
 
Nobody is arguing that it is a wise marketing decision. That's where criticism to this is inconsequential, because that's where how many gamers prefer it this way really counts. When it is to evaluate the quality, it is a whole different story. Is it dumbing down and hand holding? I believe it undeniably is. Can modders fix it? Yes, but it is irrelevant.

If you understand that the game was built with a certain target audience in mind, then you should understand that there is nothing to "fix" with this mechanic, its not a bug. And you should be happy that modding tools are provided to improve that aspect of the game to your liking.

More specifically on the issue of immortal companions. Idealistic BS aside, in my experience companion AI sucks even in the best fast paced corridor shooter (where its less noticeable, there less non-conventional ways to go about it and easier to build scenarios), this is far worse in RPGs with randomized open-world environments, especially in tough situations that require a little finesse. Most often this mean loss of control over the situation, limiting your approach choices to the AI combat limits. So yeah i'd rather have cosmetic dog that fetch items, over a charging bullet magnet.
 
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So ... another thing that many old RPGs did better. Because I can remember some where they had no need for immortal NPCs. And don't give me again this "but it's to difficult today" bullshit please. If it is such a problem to get it in line than maybe the way how they make NPCs work is not a good one. if I remember correctly Gothic 2 allowed you to kill everyone and some NPCs had their scripts. Does a game even need every NPC to have him wandering round the world? Or might it be just fluff which a game doesn't need?
 
Most cRPGs were iso (a better preservative for tactical play and party management) and turn-based (which offers more control).
 
So ... another thing that many old RPGs did better. Because I can remember some where they had no need for immortal NPCs. And don't give me again this "but it's to difficult today" bullshit please. If it is such a problem to get it in line than maybe the way how they make NPCs work is not a good one. if I remember correctly Gothic 2 allowed you to kill everyone and some NPCs had their scripts. Does a game even need every NPC to have him wandering round the world? Or might it be just fluff which a game doesn't need?

Unfortunately, you do not remember corectly, as all the main-quest essential characters in Gothic 2 are immortal, so your argument is kinda wonky here...
And don't you think that an NPC that stands in place 24/7 is very likely to break a player's immersion? It surely does for me. It would be nice if the game world felt more organic, more alive with NPCs that seem to have lives beyond waiting for a hero to come and take a quest from them.
 
It's been like 10 years when I played it for the last time. Anyway. Point is there have been games in the past where NPCs havn't been immortal. All I am saying it is possible. It just takes a little effort. And I would hope people would stop defending immortal NPCs, because they are defending a very bad game mechanic.
 
Those NPCs weren't immortal because they were at absolutely no risk of dying save for the player. In newer games, where NCPs actually move around, they might die due to actions that aren't connected to the player. For example, in Skyrim you get those random vampire attacks. They are very much capable of making a small massacre in the middle of a town. You wouldn't want an important character to randomly die, now would you? I'm not saying, that NPCs immortality is the way to go, but there is a reason it is in place.
 
If there are no real effects to those random mosnter attacks then what's the point? I have Apocalyptic Mojave installed, and that has caused the death of a couple of quest related NPCs, and that's what makes the mod cool, everytime you start the game very different things can affect the way you play. The "fix" to this "issue" then is to not have superfluous random events near them, keep them in a house or program good AI.

You are worried about "immersion" being broken by an NPC standing still 24/7 but apparently immortality of random NPCs doesn't affect that?
 
So wait, it's cool to have a gameplay mechanic that ruins the story now? Jesus, I have been looking at games wrong all these years... Yes, having the game kill quest-important characters for you is an issue. Better AI or keeping random events like that away from important characters would fix that. So lets instead push for that, rather than having the game kill your NPCs for you, which you said was "cool".
 
If there are no real effects to those random mosnter attacks then what's the point? I have Apocalyptic Mojave installed, and that has caused the death of a couple of quest related NPCs, and that's what makes the mod cool, everytime you start the game very different things can affect the way you play. The "fix" to this "issue" then is to not have superfluous random events near them, keep them in a house or program good AI.

You are worried about "immersion" being broken by an NPC standing still 24/7 but apparently immortality of random NPCs doesn't affect that?

As I said, I don't think the immortality is the right way to go about it, but it is a simple way to resolve an important issue. I don't want my NPCs to die randomly as it would be simply annoying. yes, it would be a bit more immersive, but still annoying and would most likely make me load a previous save. Yes, better AI would be an optimal way to deal with it, but I'm willing to live with immortal NPCs(save for companions of course) if it means that other features are going to be fleshed out more.
 
Those NPCs weren't immortal because they were at absolutely no risk of dying save for the player. In newer games, where NCPs actually move around, they might die due to actions that aren't connected to the player. For example, in Skyrim you get those random vampire attacks. They are very much capable of making a small massacre in the middle of a town. You wouldn't want an important character to randomly die, now would you? I'm not saying, that NPCs immortality is the way to go, but there is a reason it is in place.
Than find a way to solve the issue without making them immortal. You know what I find interesting? Not every NPC is even immortal, neither in Skyrim nor Oblivion or Fallout 3. Just those that seem to be "important" for some quests, like the main quest line, or most of the bigger quest lines. In other words, the protection they have for the NPCs is more or less in place to protect the player ...
hint: Main Target audience for this

*Yes I know it's fake


So it doesn't seem to be that much of a problem or high priority here, NPCs walking into dragonmouths or Raider camps. They just want to make sure that every Beth gamer is a winner!

I believe the main priority is to protect those gamers that like to play their game as whack-a-mole-fest and still give them a way to finish the game as super hero without something hurting their little self esteem. Like Gizmo said, Beth simply knows their playerbase to well ... or well at least they seem not to think very highly about their usual player. It simply goes to well with the rest of the design choices in their games. Mainly Oblivion which contained almost zero role playing and F3 with the Captain obvious answers marked as Intelligence. - Fighting the good fight with your voice and all that.

Like I said. Defending immortal NPCs in a role playing game is like defending bad shooter mechanics in FPS games. Just because it's difficult to make a good shoter doesn't mean you have to excuse its mediocre FPS mechanics. So there is no need to excuse Bethesdas overuse of immortal NPCs because they can't figure out how to make decent NPC AI and routes which for some reason want to hug the nearest Dragon of Deathclaw. By the way, I really never felt like the way how people behaved in F3 and Oblivion made the world more live like compared to no clue Morrowind for example. Or if you want Fallout 1/2.
 
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Until I installed mods that added in random spawns and more enemy camps I never had a Quest NPC in new Vegas die other than the buyer in the Van Graff's quest (got attacked by Golden Geckos) and Bill Ronte if Thugs spawn near him. So I also don't get why people are even complaining about that. And I have been playing New Vegas since it first came out, I have waaaaay too many hours on it. Immortal NPCs is NEVER the way to go, even tho I like New vegas a lot and I find Yes man funny I still wish there was a way to take Indepndent Vegas without him and maybe even being an option at some point to turn off his AI (IE killing him). Hell one of the reasons why I think Lonesome Road is the weakest DLC is because of the Immortal ED-E.

if the yare going for such lazy solutions on questing then that also doesn't paint a good picture for the rest of the features in the game either.
 
For example, in Skyrim you get those random vampire attacks. They are very much capable of making a small massacre in the middle of a town.

Speaking of random attacks, I understand that there is some new mechanic at play (radiant story?), is it noticeable in anyway?
 
No, because it's kind of not a thing at all. NPCs let you rob them after you complete quests and give you equipment you dropped. And sometimes they generate generic Fetch quests. That's the extent of it.
 
The thing with NPCs dying to enemy attacks and such is all about NPC placement. Basically, if you place people where it makes sense for them to be in the world, they won't die - important characters in New Vegas weren't at risk because they were on settlements, bases, houses, etc... places where it makes sense for them to be living in, basically. Skyrim wouldn't have needed so many immortal NPCs if they had scripted citizens to enter their homes during dragon/vampire attacks, or if they put all important NPCs inside city walls or other places they would logically be protected. There's also the problem of a huge amount of characters who were essential for no reason, like that racist Rolff guy from Windhelm, who was only immortal because he was potentially involved in a supremely minor randomly generated Thieves Guild quest. If the "radiant quest system" had worked as promised the quest objective would have just moved to another NPC, but since it didn't, we're stuck with this unlikeable character wandering around permanently. Playing an elf who can't stand his racism, or an imperial soldier promoting the law, or just a hero who is full of his bullshit? Doesn't matter as there's nothing you can do anyway.

But really, though, we have to revisit the concept of why we're having immortal characters in the first place. Ideally you will structure your main quest in a way that you can still complete the game no matter what path you choose; games like Morrowind or New Vegas do this. The former has a back path that works even if you kill an important character, the latter has Yes Man. Both alternate choices are more difficult than normal gameplay, but they are there, at your disposal if you want to play a kind of character who does things differently. Oblivion was the first Bethesda game to implement essential NPCs but as far as the average playthrough is concerned, they were far less intrusive; only a small amount of characters was immortal, and the majority ceased to be unkillable as soon as they were no longer necessary. While it's obviously not as a good a system, it worked, and balanced being free to act however you want and still telling the story you want to tell.

On its announcement, Skyrim was said to be reinventing these ideas with the so-called Radiant AI. In theory, minor NPCs could die and you would still be able to complete their quest, either because somebody replaced that NPC, or maybe there was another path you could take. The biggest promise I would say that was touted was the "endless" questlines. How you would always have another quest to complete - on a surface level, they are right, you can kill an infinite number of people in the name of Sithis, or burglarize an infinite number of houses. The problem with the function is that the quests aren't anything that have any impact on the world at all (which is already something Skyrim suffers from significantly). The people you kill for the Dark Brotherhood don't exist until you take that quest, and even then, it's just a randomly generated NPC that has no real name, wanders an aimless path, never talks to anyone, and eventually respawns. Killing that person serves no purpose and ultimately feel shallow and pointless. The side jobs you can get for the Thieves Guild are perhaps even worse, as the way the system works, you can be sent to rob valuable items from houses that are basically the equivalent to a trailer park home. It's not realistic for this great thief to be robbing a person like that and the immersion falls more and more as you see how poorly thought out the random quests are.

However, that aspect could at least be considered as a feature that was way too hyped and ended up being underwhelming. But the part about being able to complete quests even if the NPCs involved die was an outright lie, as there isn't a single quest in the game, small or large, that follows this principle.

So the new features Skyrim was supposed to have either didn't work as they should, or didn't exist at all. We're left with immortal NPCs again. The game commits another mistake in this part, however: compared to Oblivion, not only is the amount of essential characters greatly increased (including minor quests like "Go to X dungeon and watch out for Draugr" which did not need that character to be essential), they no longer stop being essential after their respective quests are completed for the most part. Only a few, like the Companions, become killable after their relevance is over. Maven Black Briar is necessary for a single dialogue in the second quest of the Thieves Guild questline? Too bad, she's immortal forever. (Fallout 3 also did this, by the way. For most essential characters, you just need to change a few details in the quests and they would no longer have to be unkillable.)

The way NPCs act and react based on quests is broken, and not just because you can't kill people. Quests don't actually change the world at all, and you'll still be advised to join the College of Winterhold even if you're the Arch-Mage. It doesn't take much to make the world seem reactive even if it's in a minimal sense. Fallout 1 had the Unity mutants overrun Necropolis after enough time, less if alerted them by killing Harry's team (see the player's actions helping shape the consequences). Morrowind would have more sleepers and Sixth House attacks the longer you went along the main story. Oblivion had gates disappearing and NPCs changing their weekly schedules. And perhaps the best example, New Vegas had piles of changes in dialogue with every quest you did, factions would make comments based on your reputation and even related to specific quests you did to help them, companions would speak and act differently depending on what you do while they are with you, or what phase of the main quest you are in... there were even some dynamic events like the destruction of Ranger Station Charlie or the takeover of HELIOS One.

In Skyrim, the lack of any such thing ends up creating a world where you feel as if nothing has changed since you left that cave leading out of Helgen, and despite your powers and the fact that your actions would have significant influences, the world goes on apathetic to everything. Just look at the Civil War, huge part of the game that is literally all over the map... changes nothing, people don't act like the conflict is over and you can't even kill the lieutenants at each camp because, again, they are essential for no reason.

When it comes to Fallout 4, there's a reason immortal NPCs, and other aspects, are something people talk about so much. Fundamentally, the issue isn't in killing one character. It's about the whole design philosophy that tries to control more and more of what you can or can't do, leaving the player with virtually no agency on the game world, or its characters, or even its smallest quests.
 
Immortal NPCs are not the case only because players are more casual nowadays. It's because the AI is pretty much always terrible. It's very difficult to make NPCs with some self-preservation instincts that will put their own safety ahead of other things. If NPCs had better AI that actually tried to take cover during firefights, immortality would not be needed anymore. As far as I remember there were no immortal NPCs in Morrowind. Why? because they only stood in place and didn't move at all, they were at absolutely no risk of death except for at the hand of the player. In Oblivion and Skyrim essential NPCs are necessary so that they don't randomly die if they wander off somewhere, thus not letting you complete your quests despite it not being your fault.

It is not correct to put all the blame on players or developers who want to babysit the companions, Blame the AI.

So like the original games.
no, somehow worse. FO3 dogmeat always running through my freshly-placed mines and killing me or skyrim companions running headlong into combat while i tried to sneak behind the dungeon boss for an assassination. i mean, sure ian shoots you point blank in the back of the head, and he might use his knife even though i just gave him a nice gun and a fuckton of ammo, but he at least tries. he doesnt just run around like a chicken with it's head cut off, swinging at everything (ok sometimes he does but that's really only in situations you probably shouldnt have gotten into in the first place)
 
To be fair, it was probably just easier to model the world in isometric turn-based than it is in real-time 3D, and that is reflecting on the AI. Which would lead us instead to the question: if they couldn't make it better, why did they change it?
 
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