What kind of weapons do you want to see in F3?

[Ashmo]

I think there's some absurd way to turn a Winchester rifle into a crossbow -- although most people would probably rather turn a broken Winchester into a working one.

Anyway. Bows are pretty straightforward and crossbows are still way easier to create than fully functional repeating rifles or handguns, so if the latter are okay, the former make as much sense generally.

But as I said -- this has been discussed before. Search this forum if you want to find out more about the discussion.

 

[Lord 342]

Actually, kevlar wouldn't do a damn thing against a crossbow bolt if you use a bladed or pointed tip. Kevlar is only good against high-velocity blunt objects, which is why many stupid cops got stabbed for asking a buddy to test their kevlar armor with a boot knife.

So then we'd also have to think about where kevlar would come from in Fallout's universe as well.

Good points all around Rosh, Kevlar is very specific which is why armor made from it usually has plates in it to soak up damage. I'd like to see the ability to wear a kevlar (or the like) vest under regular clothes like a leather jacket, etc, since that is the point of kevlar vests. Kevlar was invented in 1965. Not exactly the height of the Fallout base era, but not way outside of it either. I wouldn't have a shit if it showed up in Fallout, perhaps by a different brand name or technology.

The earliest vests were silk, and later ones were cotton. Surprisingly enough these were effective against handgun ammo, especially lead and blunt-nose bullets. So suffice it to say that while Kevlar in name may not show up, a bullet-proof vest not unlike what we recognize as such is by no means a non-sequitur.

 

[Roshambo]

No, kevlar is a BIG no-no in the Fallout universe. I'll explain why. The progression from Leather to Combat armor is a distinct progression of styles in technology. You go from basic raider wear to something that speaks of the old technology, which is advanced defensive polymers in Fallout's universe. We didn't have advanced defensive polymers in the 50's and a bit earlier, as nylons and velcro were being put onto the market in that time. Now, it is even still a point of sci-fi, but those polymers are used instead of any form of kevlar. Kevlar, like the microchip, was never discovered in Fallout's universe.

Ceramic plates were also being worked on in the 50's, as they were desperately trying to reduce size and weight. They also had to work on obviousness and cumbersome bulkiness of body armor designed previous, which was usually a padded vest with steel plate inserts.

Fallout doesn't miniaturize, it follows the 50's vision rules that bigger is better, from your armor to your cars. Now you are going from the old technology to yesteryear's experimental technology, which has always been worth a lot more in the Fallout universe given the PA suits.

So that is why it went from polymers to ceramics in technical level, because ceramics were on the horizon for the 50's. Therefore, it stands in the writer's eyes to have plastics more refined and commonplace in the future when ceramics are just a theoretical science at the time, so they are used for the high-end technology in the universe.

 

[Jarno Mikkola]

So none of the advanced defensive polymers were kevlar/or ralvek ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevlar
Combat Armour

High tech armor, made out of advanced defensive polymers.

 

[Lord 342]

No, kevlar is a BIG no-no in the Fallout universe. I'll explain why. The progression from Leather to Combat armor is a distinct progression of styles in technology. You go from basic raider wear to something that speaks of the old technology, which is advanced defensive polymers in Fallout's universe. We didn't have advanced defensive polymers in the 50's and a bit earlier, as nylons and velcro were being put onto the market in that time. Now, it is even still a point of sci-fi, but those polymers are used instead of any form of kevlar. Kevlar, like the microchip, was never discovered in Fallout's universe.

Which doesn't really matter a whole shitload. There is nothing concrete in the Fallout universe to support or deny the existence of Kevlar or its equivalent. Even you can't claim to understand what those "Advanced defensive polymers" are because they're sci-fi. You seem to prefer a hazy "this-feels-right" approach to the setting, while I tend towards a more concrete "this fits in a timeline" approach. Neither is inherently superior. We could argue this all day but we'd just have a whole big steaming pile of conjecture.

I'd much rather say that it would be a good idea to wear a body vest under your leather coat, and have its damage modifiers apply to torso shots only, than argue if the body vest is made of Kevlar or something else. I could care less in all honesty what it's made of, which is why I suggested that it need not be named Kevlar or even utilize the same technology. It could just as easily be a "polymer vest with ceramic trauma plates" as anything else. There is as always a good argument against using a real-world trade name anyway.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

I'd much rather say that it would be a good idea to wear a body vest under your leather coat, and have its damage modifiers apply to torso shots only, than argue if the body vest is made of Kevlar or something else. I could care less in all honesty what it's made of, which is why I suggested that it need not be named Kevlar or even utilize the same technology. It could just as easily be a "polymer vest with ceramic trauma plates" as anything else. There is as always a good argument against using a real-world trade name anyway.

Are advanced defensive polymers Kevlar by any other name? It matters not as long as the designers go on using 'advanced defensive polymers', then people can imagine them to be whatever they want. What does matter is the visual design, and a thin advanced vest than can be worn under clothing just doesn't fit in with Fallout's big and clunky (or in this case chunky) design theme. The combat armour already fits the advanced protection role, if they split armour up into sections so that the helmet etc are seperate?

 

[Roshambo]

So none of the advanced defensive polymers were kevlar/or ralvek ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevlar
Combat Armour

High tech armor, made out of advanced defensive polymers.

Yes, but using "polymer" in this instance would be like saying that Fallout has "weapons". Polymer is simply a generic term for a long-chain molecule. The polymer structure is the important aspect, and remember, the setting is about solid and clunky, so they would have likely have been using the solid polymer construction base instead of the spun fiber structure of kevlar. So instead of a fiber reinforced plastic base, they would have used a hardened plastic polymer base. In fact, I have seen very little in-game evidence of other fiber polymer development except for one item that doesn't quite explain any future fiber polymer development, the rather useless vault suit. Unless it has some other construction which is likely.

Which doesn't really matter a whole shitload. There is nothing concrete in the Fallout universe to support or deny the existence of Kevlar or its equivalent.

Actually, there is. The setting styling, plus other points of the universe that really don't lend to any real evidence of fiber polymer development. Plastics are also useful against bladed weapons due to their construction, whereas kevlar's construction was not. So I will have to go by both the armor's in-game usefulness against melee weapons and that kevlar wasn't in the period in which Fallout's technological style was deviated from.

Even you can't claim to understand what those "Advanced defensive polymers" are because they're sci-fi. You seem to prefer a hazy "this-feels-right" approach to the setting,

No, I go by what suits the fiction style without going into some Counter-Strike munchkinfest. Contrary to most of the noob morons, I actually like to think about the setting and what goes on behind it, rather than just mentally jerk off under the validation that it's a game.

while I tend towards a more concrete "this fits in a timeline" approach.

What part of "alternate universe" escapes your notice here?

Neither is inherently superior. We could argue this all day but we'd just have a whole big steaming pile of conjecture.

Actually, we could go by setting technology and how the setting developed instead of empty obfuscation.

Remember, the silicon semi-conductor was actually designed before the 50's, and technology in the science fiction followed suit in being clunky and without the benefit of miniturization. The same would go with other similar technologies, and was, as is evident through much of the Fallout 1 item construction.

I'd much rather say that it would be a good idea to wear a body vest under your leather coat, and have its damage modifiers apply to torso shots only, than argue if the body vest is made of Kevlar or something else. I could care less in all honesty what it's made of, which is why I suggested that it need not be named Kevlar or even utilize the same technology. It could just as easily be a "polymer vest with ceramic trauma plates" as anything else. There is as always a good argument against using a real-world trade name anyway.

Well, then there's also the matter of setting suitability, and then there's also that silly matter about kevlar being FUCKING USELESS in melee combat, even with ceramic plates. But apparently it's okay to throw both reality and Fallout's universe out the window to think kevlar = body armor, or for that matter, Fallout's Combat Armor. Kevlar depends upon being padded to absorb the bullet's kinetic energy, meaning that it really only has one use - stopping bullets. That doesn't sound of much use in a setting with laser rifles and handheld chainsaws, which were around before the war.

So, to both shortchange Fallout's setting as using kevlar, on the argument that the setting would have developed it through the timeline, and also somehow still use a polymer that is only designed to stop bullets, you really don't present kevlar in any good light, which is why I pointed out that it doesn't suit Fallout's setting at all. Now, for certain, I have made it clear that it is simply not suitable, even in a "science-fiction" aspect, as they would have evolved their polymers to both resist bullets and melee attacks, which would again not be kevlar.

So, again, kevlar just doesn't fit into Fallout in any way whatsoever except for asinine name-dropping. If you mean to refer to body armor, say of what kind of construction because there is a FUCKLOAD. Kevlar is just meant to slow bullets. The careless use of it to generalize "body armor" is just pure Hollywood ignorance that should be thumped.

 

[Lord 342]

Which doesn't really matter a whole shitload. There is nothing concrete in the Fallout universe to support or deny the existence of Kevlar or its equivalent.

Actually, there is. The setting styling, plus other points of the universe that really don't lend to any real evidence of fiber polymer development. Plastics are also useful against bladed weapons due to their construction, whereas kevlar's construction was not. So I will have to go by both the armor's in-game usefulness against melee weapons and that kevlar wasn't in the period in which Fallout's technological style was deviated from.

Even you can't claim to understand what those "Advanced defensive polymers" are because they're sci-fi. You seem to prefer a hazy "this-feels-right" approach to the setting,

No, I go by what suits the fiction style without going into some Counter-Strike munchkinfest. Contrary to most of the noob morons, I actually like to think about the setting and what goes on behind it, rather than just mentally jerk off under the validation that it's a game.

I agree. First person who suggest an AWP in Fallout 3 needs to eat one.

Actually, we could go by setting technology and how the setting developed instead of empty obfuscation.

And there is still no conclusive evidence for or against Kevlar in name or technology; however you make a good argument against it, and I see no need to fight for the inclusion of the name or technology.

Well, then there's also the matter of setting suitability, and then there's also that silly matter about kevlar being FUCKING USELESS in melee combat, even with ceramic plates. But apparently it's okay to throw both reality and Fallout's universe out the window to think kevlar = body armor, or for that matter, Fallout's Combat Armor.

I never meant to equate Fallout's combat armor to a modern Kevlar vest. It is clearly combat armor and something different. You would not wear a Kevlar or other vest with it; it already protects against bullets.

Kevlar depends upon being padded to absorb the bullet's kinetic energy, meaning that it really only has one use - stopping bullets. That doesn't sound of much use in a setting with laser rifles and handheld chainsaws, which were around before the war.

Burning, piercing, and electrical damage all exist in real-world weapons. Just because armor cannot protect you from one damage type is no reason to not wear it.

So, to both shortchange Fallout's setting as using kevlar, on the argument that the setting would have developed it through the timeline, and also somehow still use a polymer that is only designed to stop bullets, you really don't present kevlar in any good light, which is why I pointed out that it doesn't suit Fallout's setting at all. Now, for certain, I have made it clear that it is simply not suitable, even in a "science-fiction" aspect, as they would have evolved their polymers to both resist bullets and melee attacks, which would again not be kevlar.

As I said before I agree with you that the name could shortchange the setting, and I see no reason to use the name or specific technology. The point I was trying to make was that the concept of an armor vest should be modified for the Fallout setting, not the Fallout setting modified to fit an existing (Kevlar) armor vest.

So, again, kevlar just doesn't fit into Fallout in any way whatsoever except for asinine name-dropping. If you mean to refer to body armor, say of what kind of construction because there is a FUCKLOAD. Kevlar is just meant to slow bullets. The careless use of it to generalize "body armor" is just pure Hollywood ignorance that should be thumped.

Agreed. The vest a prison guard wears to protect himself from blunt, piercing, and slashing damage is quite different from a policeman's bullet-resistant vest. When I mentioned Kevlar before I did mean a vest designed to only effect bullets and similar forms of damage. I had not thought that the name and technology breach the setting, but I can understand now how they could. Suffice it to say, though, that bullet-resistant vests as a concept are not dependant on specific technology and I suspect that a variety of protective vests, for police, for industry, and for the "Concerned Citizen", should be found in the Fallout world. Most importantly, though, they should be an unique part of the setting rather than copy from a manufacturer's web site or an entry from an encyclopedia.

 

[IgnatzKrebs]

There are not enough bows, crossbows and spearguns in the FO series thus far. Easily maintained and made weapons, easily made and recovered ammuntion. I thought the Speargun in FO:T was a big step in the right direction - too bad there was only ONE speargun and 5 speargun ammo in the entire frickin game.

Also, enough of this full-auto spray-and-pray shit. Bolt action hunting rifles should be fairly common, not fucking SMGs and assault rifles. Why? Ammo conservation. Reliability. Accuracy. Killing power. While there is probably a few gunsmithys still in business in the wasteland and a few reloaders still brewing smokeless propellant and churning out small quantities of ammo (meaning there should be quite a bit of ammo going around - people in the wasteland are gonna make Gunsmithy and Reloading their fucking college majors.) ammo efficiency will rule the wastes.

 

[Lazarus Plus]

I gained the impression that the political situation at the time of the war had led to huge civilian stockplies of ammunition and weapons...

Paranoia generated by the ongoing war with China.

 

[Hotel California]

I totally agree, and with the amount of ammo i found just lying around in any old abandoned military base then i'm not suprised that there is enough to waste. Ammo scarcity never troubled me in FO 1 or 2. There are enough dead raiders to equip an army (which they kind of did ...).

OK, granted you'd find a couple of spear guns around but they're a pretty useless type of weaponry. For instance, the only spear guns with anytype of piercing power are CS gas or the likes which whilst A) not fitting into the fallout setting and B) there being so few places to fill up your cartrigages from the handy gas cylinder in the trunk you try telling me again they're easy to maintain. Like evey other weapon, spearguns most of all would need regular greasing, cleaning and checking of general condition.

Bows, yes they'd be relativly easy to make but do you have any idea how much skill is required to make a half decent bow?
1) You need a bow maker. Bows can't be made of just any old wood and i doubt you'd find a carbon fibre specialist anywhere other than the BoS (which wouldn't really need bows). You need special springy wood which in a mostly treeless wasteland just doesn't seem feasible.
2) Fletching isn't an easy task. Get a big stick, a piece of hard string and anyother littler tig. Just try to fire it anywere near in a straight line. It doesn't work.
3) Please, for your sake don't even consider thinking that a leather armoured wanderer would ever look right holding a bow- be it horse or long. Ever! Roshambo would probably kill you outright .

Crossbows maybe; i suspect crude ones could be made but in a world where guns are so readily avaliable apart from a sneak kill weapon what'd they be used for?

And bolt action rifles - sure the hunting rifle was the prime example. However, its not a brilliant closecombat gun is it?

Essentially, you haven't read any of the previous posts about crossbows etc. Wise up. Ignorance is not an excuse.

 

[Mephiston]

This game is set on earth, sometime in the near future. Technology is back to square one except for whatever was left standing after the bombs hit. And most millitary weapon caches would no doubt hold modern weaponry from our time period + a few more advanced experimental weapons. As far as weapons go id like to see real weapons. to list of a few, m16a4, ak101, mp5, OCIW, L85a, g36k, m249, m60, various h&k, fn light machine guns, m24, m82, p90c, famas etc. Basically a sampling of the conventional armaments manufactured for all the world's superpowers. Even tho most of these weapons would still have been in service obviously there would be rarer, more hard to come by experimental weapons that were developed such as the turbo plasma rifle, the gauss gun, perhaps a microwave weapon etc. Also you may find rare ww2 weapons. These are collection peices, kept and maintained in mint condition, and would arguably be more powerful than the conventional weapons youd find around the wasteland. these include but are not limited to: kar 98, m1 garand, thompson smg, mp40, mp44, kar43, m3a1 grease gun, springfield 03, m14, pssh, mosin nagant rifles, lee enfield rifles, sten guns. I dont much care for brand names, so we dont necesarrly have to see an fn p90c, it could be called a (hahah) rcp 90. However if there are guns based on real ones it would be cool if they used to proper ammunition, Speaking of which....
Personally i dont think there's a problem with the ammount of ammunition you could find in the first 2 games. Look at it this way, the vault dweller durning the course of his adventures runs into an abandoned ammo depot...how now has access to 100000000000s of rounds of ammunition. Whoopty fucking do. Its a hostile world, theres bandits death claws, rad scorpions and who knows what else. guns and ammo are cheap and on demand.
It would bring a new level of management if magasines were added to the game. Ammo wouldnt go directly into your weapon, rather youd spend some of your out of combat time refilling spent magasines which you could only carry a certain ammount of around with you. That way durning a fire fight youd have to actually consider running out of ammo since you wouldnt be able to sit your ass down and refill your spent magasines while a raider is shooting the shit out of you. Just an idea.
Bolt action rifles? why not. Then again why not semi automatic rifles? it doesnt matter.

 

[Kan-Kerai]

You know, shortly after I registered here, I got into an extended argument with someone who said things very similar to what you just have.

I don't really want to argue with you about this topic, though, so I'll just tell you to go here and see what happened. Be sure to read the whole thread, it might be an enlightening experience.

 

[Mephiston]

Thats a good point. After reading that i agree it makes sense to keep most of the weapons fictiicious except for a select few classics such as say a magnum .357, the p90c, oicw g36k. After all, you'll notice that in most hollywood "futuristic" movies these are commonly the weapons used (well not the 357).

 

[Roshambo]

This game is set on earth, sometime in the near future. Technology is back to square one except for whatever was left standing after the bombs hit. And most millitary weapon caches would no doubt hold modern weaponry from our time period + a few more advanced experimental weapons. As far as weapons go id like to see real weapons. to list of a few, m16a4, ak101, mp5, OCIW, L85a, g36k, m249, m60, various h&k, fn light machine guns, m24, m82, p90c, famas etc.

Hey, thanks for reading the other multitude of gun threads on this forum, where it has to be beaten into yet another newbie's skull that Fallout != Counter-Strike. Fallout also != Fallout Tactics. Learn the setting, quick.

Personally i dont think there's a problem with the ammount of ammunition you could find in the first 2 games. Look at it this way, the vault dweller durning the course of his adventures runs into an abandoned ammo depot...how now has access to 100000000000s of rounds of ammunition. Whoopty fucking do. Its a hostile world, theres bandits death claws, rad scorpions and who knows what else. guns and ammo are cheap and on demand.

Hmmm, in reading that, I still don't see any validation for more ammo other than "just because".

It would bring a new level of management if magasines were added to the game. Ammo wouldnt go directly into your weapon, rather youd spend some of your out of combat time refilling spent magasines which you could only carry a certain ammount of around with you. That way durning a fire fight youd have to actually consider running out of ammo since you wouldnt be able to sit your ass down and refill your spent magasines while a raider is shooting the shit out of you. Just an idea.

Really, how often would you generally have to reload that many times in combat? I rarely found myself reloading that often except in extended fights, and then you would simply just switch out to a different weapon, thus using just a couple more APs to really defeat the purpose of limited magazines.

 

[Mephiston]

I rolled a fastshot, gifted, 10 agi, 10 int, 8 perception, char. ( with serious deficits in cha and luck). I Would use single shot on more than one occasion but my dominating tactic was to get within meele range and burst on my target. With a p90 i was reloading every round i wasnt moving around, same thing goes for the bozar later on (after the bonus rate of fire feat.). I dont know if anyone ever tried this but for me was extremly effective in dealing with anything. The only downside was that it was burning though my ammo, and that really wasn't much of a downside since i by the end i was carrying 3000 round of .223 around with me.
I never said there should be more ammo, just the same ammount as you could find in fallout 2. I suppose tho that, there were many areas in fallout 1 and 2 where ammo shouldnt have been placed. So yes, it should only be found in places where you would expect it to be found. And also i suppose different enemies should have different ammounts of ammo upon their person. For instance an untrained bandit would only have wahtever was in his gun at the time of his death while a well trained merc would have 4-5 magasines worth of ammo in reserve.

 

[Lord 342]

And also i suppose different enemies should have different ammounts of ammo upon their person. For instance an untrained bandit would only have wahtever was in his gun at the time of his death while a well trained merc would have 4-5 magasines worth of ammo in reserve.

Oddly enough, it's like this already. Kill a raider in a random encounter. What's he got? Most likely just the rounds in the magazine. (this is actually part of the Random encounter script and makes for hilarity on the rare occasions that people in RE's wield pipe rifles). Kill one of the mercs in Vault 15, the raiders, New Reno, or anywhere else that trained gunmen will be found, and likely that they will be holding extra ammunition in reserve.

 

[Kahgan]

Bows, yes they'd be relativly easy to make but do you have any idea how much skill is required to make a half decent bow?
1) You need a bow maker. Bows can't be made of just any old wood and i doubt you'd find a carbon fibre specialist anywhere other than the BoS (which wouldn't really need bows). You need special springy wood which in a mostly treeless wasteland just doesn't seem feasible.
2) Fletching isn't an easy task. Get a big stick, a piece of hard string and anyother littler tig. Just try to fire it anywere near in a straight line. It doesn't work.
3) Please, for your sake don't even consider thinking that a leather armoured wanderer would ever look right holding a bow- be it horse or long. Ever! Roshambo would probably kill you outright

yarr, regarding bows, it's not that hard, I make traditional longbows/etc myself. You can actually use allmost any kind of wood, but you have to laminate* two or more differant kinds unless you find one of those yummy kinds that allready have the qualities needed to make a good bow in one piece.

*laminating is when you glue two or more pieces of wood(or whatever other material) together with a really strong glue like epoxy. The point with doing that on bows is that the back of the bow needs to be stretch-tolerant, while the front needs to be squeeze-tolerant.

just sayin' that's all

 

[Mongoose]

Well, I haven't been flamed or ridiculed for being a n00b posting an opinion on the topic, so here goes...

I prefer the "scarcity" model for firearms (if not the guns themselves, than scarcity (or unreliability) of ammunition). Contemporary firearms could be vintage weapons with limited reliability and ammuntion availability--decent starting weapons, but unlikely to stay with a character forever.

I'd rather see more funky futuristic gun designs for Fallout 3.

What I'd really like to see is a more realistic approach to firearm damage. Bullet damage in Fallout seems to rely heavily on caliber rather than something like muzzle energy. This is reminiscent of the original TSR Top Secret game, in which a .45ACP round was much more dangerous than a .223 rifle round, because the bullet was wider. And why is a Dirty Harry special faster to shoot than a 10mm pistol? And how is a revolver faster to load than an automatic?

Anyway, I suspect that Zeb Cook is responsible for the bullet damage numbers, because he was involved with Fallout and Top Secret.

Mongoose

 

[Roshambo]

Anyway, I suspect that Zeb Cook is responsible for the bullet damage numbers, because he was involved with Fallout and Top Secret.

My suspicions as well, which explains why AP ammo was essentially useless.