WhatCulture 10 Major Fallout 4 Problems That Fans Won't Admit

[R.Graves]

Personally I believe Bethesda's gonna do that thing Bioware did with Dragon Age: Inquisition and have a final DLC that ends the game.

Fallout 3:

-game shipped with wrong ending
-dlc set after ending but doesn't end game

Fallout 4:
-game shipped with no ending
-dlc with the real ending that ends the game.

I don't know which is more bullshit. But I don't fancy having to pay money to properly end my nightmarish experience with Fallout 4.

 

[Risewild]

Dude, RPGs have been around for hundreds of years https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_role-playing_games

Dude you should read the links you post roleplaying games exist since the 1970's where D&D was the first, now if you actually read the article it says that roleplaying as been around for ages, "roleplaying" is not "roleplaying games".
The article also makes that distinction:

The history of role-playing games begins with an earlier tradition of role-playing, which combined with the rulesets of fantasy wargames in the 1970s to give rise to the modern role-playing game. A role-playing game (RPG) is a type of game in which the participants assume the roles of characters and collaboratively create stories. Participants determine the actions of their characters based on their characterization, and the actions succeed or fail according to a system of rules and guidelines. Within the rules, they may improvise freely; their choices shape the direction and outcome of the games.

RPGs are a combination of the early tradition of roleplay (which was pretty much a theatre play) with the rulesets of fantasy wargames. RPGs are not the early theatre "roleplaying".

The first commercially available role-playing game, Dungeons & Dragons (D&D), was published in 1974 by Gygax's TSR. TSR marketed the game as a niche product. Gygax expected to sell about 50,000 copies. After establishing itself in boutique stores it developed a cult following.

I am not trying to be rude, but it makes it hard to take someone serious when they do not read their sources and post something to prove their point that just plainly contradicts it .

About me wanting the game to be a different type:
No I don't want the game to be a different type, and no Fallout 4 is not advertised as an action RPG, it is sold on Steam as a RPG only. So I want the game to be a RPG, like they advertise it. You just agreed with me, Fallout 4 is not a RPG and that is why when I mentioned what a RPG is it sounds like I want a different type of game
And also a RPG does not need to be turn based, as long as it uses the character's skills and not the players it is half way to be a real RPG.

 

[iltt]

Dude you should read the links you post roleplaying games exist since the 1970's where D&D was the first, now if you actually read the article it says that roleplaying as been around for ages, "roleplaying" is not "roleplaying games".

"In 16th century Europe, traveling teams of players performed a form of improvisational theatre known as the Commedia dell'arte, with stock situations, stock characters and improvised dialogue. In the 19th and early 20th century, many board games and parlour games such as the game Jury Box included elements of role-playing. Mock trials, model legislatures, and the "Theatre Games" created by Viola Spolin arose, in which players took on the roles of characters and improvised, but without the formalised rules which would characterise modern role-playing games.[7]" Notice how they say game.

Modern RPGs are a combination of the early tradition of roleplay (which was pretty much a theatre play) with the rulesets of fantasy wargames. RPGs are not the early theatre "roleplaying".

FTFY. Notice how you said RPG in the first place, not mentioning modern RPGs, because you would've been correct had you said DnD was the first modern RPG.

I am not trying to be rude, but it makes it hard to take someone serious when they do not read their sources and post something to prove their point that just plainly contradicts it .

The irony

No I don't want the game to be a different type, and no Fallout 4 is not advertised as an action RPG, it is sold on Steam as a RPG only.

Okay first of all, you take steam user tags seriously? Second of all

You just agreed with me, Fallout 4 is not a RPG and that is why when I mentioned what a RPG is it sounds like I want a different type of game

I already told you it's not a turn based RPG. You want it to be a turned based RPG.

And also a RPG does not need to be turn based, as long as it uses the character's skills and not the players it is half way to be a real RPG.

Except actually utilizing the player's skill is a defining trait in action-RPGs, and what you're looking for is in turn-based/isometric RPGs.

 

[Black Angel]

"In 16th century Europe, traveling teams of players performed a form of improvisational theatre known as the Commedia dell'arte, with stock situations, stock characters and improvised dialogue. In the 19th and early 20th century, many board games and parlour games such as the game Jury Box included elements of role-playing. Mock trials, model legislatures, and the "Theatre Games" created by Viola Spolin arose, in which players took on the roles of characters and improvised, but without the formalised rules which would characterise modern role-playing games.[7]" Notice how they say game.

There. Notice how @Risewild specifically said RPGs, as in the part I bold down. Now I'm gonna ask you: Does Fallout 4 followed these formalised rules that defined modern role-playing games, as in D&D-P&P role-playing games? Hint: Nope.

 

[R.Graves]

I already told you it's not a turn based RPG. You want it to be a turned based RPG.

I don't usually speak for others but I'm confident he doesn't need it to be a turnbased rpg. All most of us wanted here was for it to be a good rpg but Bethesda seems incapable of unwilling to do that it seems.

All I want from a fallout game is some good writing that adheres to lore. So, yeah, that's the biggest reason I hate fallout 4. It fails to do that. It doesnt help that it Also fails as an rpg, A shooter, and as a Minecraft clone game because my second floor floats, so, yeah, fuck that game.

 

[iltt]

There. Notice how @Risewild specifically said RPGs, as in the part I bold down. Now I'm gonna ask you: Does Fallout 4 followed these formalised rules that defined modern role-playing games, as in D&D-P&P role-playing games? Hint: Nope.

That quote you quoted was from a 1994 article, at a time where action RPGs weren't that common as far as I know. It actually went into more depth on the difference between role-playing games and role playing video games

" WhereD&D promised to be as limitless as your imagination, current role-playing games tend to set themselves extremely narrow briefs: D&D was (supposedly) about all of fantasy: SLA Industries deals with one, specifically constructed future world.

Given this current tendency for 'game' to mean 'world with rules system attached' it is not surprising that a present trend is to produce rules systems (e.g. GURPS, The Amazing Engine) that can be applied to a number of different worlds; and to create 'worlds' (TORG, Dream Park,Rifts) that are specifically created to allow players characters to shift between genres."

 

[Black Angel]

That quote you quoted was from a 1994 article, at a time where action RPGs weren't that common as far as I know. It actually went into more depth on the difference between role-playing games and role playing video games

So what if it was from 1994? What does that have to do with discussing whether or not Fallout 4 is an RPG when compared to its' predecessor? I don't know much about LARPing, but the role-playing games older than the first D&D (and P&P) don't have a characterised rules, while D&D have it. Most of the first form of role-playing video games are in computer RPGs, which tried their best to emulate P&P RPGs (like D&D). Obviously ARPGs doesn't have as much player agency in narrative, player-world interactivity, and choices&consequences as cRPGs. Diablo and Dark Souls, for example, are ARPGs. Fallout 3, Fallout: New Vegas, and obviously Fallout 4 are ARPGs, with Fallout: New Vegas the closest thing to a classic cRPG like Fallout 1 and 2 when compared side-by-side with the previous and next entry.

" WhereD&D promised to be as limitless as your imagination, current role-playing games tend to set themselves extremely narrow briefs: D&D was (supposedly) about all of fantasy: SLA Industries deals with one, specifically constructed future world.

Given this current tendency for 'game' to mean 'world with rules system attached' it is not surprising that a present trend is to produce rules systems (e.g. GURPS, The Amazing Engine) that can be applied to a number of different worlds; and to create 'worlds' (TORG, Dream Park,Rifts) that are specifically created to allow players characters to shift between genres."

Care to elaborate on your argument with this part?

 

[iltt]

So what if it was from 1994? What does that have to do with discussing whether or not Fallout 4 is an RPG when compared to its' predecessor?

The argument was about whether or not Fallout 4 was an RPG at all, not whether how much of an RPG it is compared to its predecessors

I don't know much about LARPing, but the role-playing games older than the first D&D (and P&P) don't have a characterised rules, while D&D have it. Most of the first form of role-playing video games are in computer RPGs, which tried their best to emulate P&P RPGs (like D&D). Obviously ARPGs doesn't have as much player agency in narrative, player-world interactivity, and choices&consequences as cRPGs. Diablo and Dark Souls, for example, are ARPGs. Fallout 3, Fallout: New Vegas, and obviously Fallout 4 are ARPGs, with Fallout: New Vegas the closest thing to a classic cRPG like Fallout 1 and 2 when compared side-by-side with the previous and next entry.

I do not disagree with this at all.

Care to elaborate on your argument with this part?

To demonstrate that even back then, people were having debates on what constitutes a 'real RPG'.

Guys, I feel like we've derailed this thread enough.

I loved the new mirelurk designs buta, they ultimately didn't feel very fallout-y.

The ones from fallout 3, on the other hand, screamed fallout to me.

View attachment 3340

Wait a sec this is not the thread about what we don't hate in Fallout 4.

Those mirelurks look cool tho

 

[Risewild]

FTFY. Notice how you said RPG in the first place, not mentioning modern RPGs, because you would've been correct had you said DnD was the first modern RPG.

The irony

Okay first of all, you take steam user tags seriously? Second of all

I already told you it's not a turn based RPG. You want it to be a turned based RPG.
Except actually utilizing the player's skill is a defining trait in action-RPGs, and what you're looking for is in turn-based/isometric RPGs.

First RPG means Roleplaying Game, not roleplaying. The ancient roleplaying wasn't a game, it was a improvisional theatre play. I think you're confusing roleplaying with roleplaying games, and that is why I mentioned in my previous post "roleplay" and "roleplaying game"

Second, it is not user tags for Fallout 4, it is the Steam genre of the game, I never even look at user tags...

Title: Fallout 4
Genre: RPG
Developer: Bethesda Game Studios
Publisher: Bethesda Softworks
Release Date: 10 Nov, 2015

You see, that is what the publishers tell steam to sell the game as, it is not user tags, it is the official game genre.

Also again to use character's skills, weakneses and strengths one does not need turn based games or isometric, Daggerfall and Morrowind did this for example, so did other RPGs from older times on consoles and early computers.

 

[R.Graves]

Wait a sec this is not the thread about what we don't hate in Fallout 4.

Those mirelurks look cool tho

Y'know I could make excuses but ultimatley you're right.

I'm dumb and I'll show myself out.

 

[Black Angel]

The argument was about whether or not Fallout 4 was an RPG at all, not whether how much of an RPG it is compared to its predecessors

Oh? And how did Fallout 4 manage to fulfill all the criteria to be called RPG at all? As in, RPGs that emulate P&P RPGs. Given Bethesda's priority for their games post-Morrowind, and also their overall design philosophy and principles, I'd say Fallout 4 didn't manage to.

To demonstrate that even back then, people were having debates on what constitutes a 'real RPG'.

Hmm I beg to differ. I don't see people 'having debates'. All I see is how role-playing games grew from something undefined (with no rules to define how a game session plays out) to something defined (having a rule set to dictate how a game session plays out). These 'debates' you're talking about, only begin to surface because Bethesda tagged their sand-box, open-world, hiking-simulator as 'RPG' (coupled with Pete Hines's stupid ass commentary on what is RPG). Heck, these debates might as well begin with the appearance of ARPGs like you said, but I don't know, I'm not really on the loop on the whole affair, and I can't trust you because you're only referencing wikis, not actual genuine discussion like maybe in RPGCodex.

 

[iltt]

First RPG means Roleplaying Game, not roleplaying. The ancient roleplaying wasn't a game, it was a improvisional theatre play. I think you're confusing roleplaying with roleplaying games, and that is why I mentioned in my previous post "roleplay" and "roleplaying game"

""Theatre Games" created by Viola Spolin arose, in which players took on the roles of characters and improvised,"
"There is some evidence that assassin-style games may have been played in New York city by adults as early as 1920."

You see, that is what the publishers tell steam to sell the game as, it is not user tags, it is the official game genre.

Yes it's an RPG. It also falls into a sub-genre of RPGs

Also again to use character's skills, weakneses and strengths one does not need turn based games or isometric, Daggerfall and Morrowind did this for example,.

Daggerfall was extremely buggy and Morrowind's combat was shit. Basing everything on pen and paper elements in a computer program isn't always good, especially in a Elder Scrolls type game.

Oh? And how did Fallout 4 manage to fulfill all the criteria to be called RPG at all?

Dude, you just said "allout 3, Fallout: New Vegas, and obviously Fallout 4 are ARPGs" and now Fallout 4 isn't an RPG?

Hmm I beg to differ. I don't see people 'having debates'.

Here's another quote from that same article
"Role-playing enthusiasts have been claiming for some time that GW sounds the death knell of role-playing games, as the company directs potential players away from role-playing games and towards fantasy wargaming, or, conversely, that it represents a potential renaissance because Workshop players will start playing traditional role-playing games as they mature."

and I can't trust you because you're only referencing wikis, not actual genuine discussion like maybe in RPGCodex.

And I can't trust you because you actually recommend I go to that website

 

[Black Angel]

Dude, you just said "allout 3, Fallout: New Vegas, and obviously Fallout 4 are ARPGs" and now Fallout 4 isn't an RPG?

Oh? And how did Fallout 4 manage to fulfill all the criteria to be called RPG at all? As in, RPGs that emulate P&P RPGs.

Read again, mate.

Here's another quote from that same article
"Role-playing enthusiasts have been claiming for some time that GW sounds the death knell of role-playing games, as the company directs potential players away from role-playing games and towards fantasy wargaming, or, conversely, that it represents a potential renaissance because Workshop players will start playing traditional role-playing games as they mature."

Different stuff. GW's tabletop gaming are completely different than that of D&D, and P&P RPGs. You should educate yourself on the differences of tabletop gaming and P&P RP gaming. Obviously people didn't go to play Warhammer 40k to do traditional role-playing games like P&P. I mean, can you mention to me any kind of cRPG in the setting of Warhammer Fantasy/40k? Of course, there was that Inquisitor-RPG, but it wasn't set in Warhammer Fantasy/40k Universe.

And I can't trust you because you actually recommend I go to that website

As much of a shitfest that site is when compared to NMA, they are genuinely well informed in RPG discussion. Seriously, if I have to educate myself on what is and what is not RPGs, I'd rather go to RPGCodex over Wikipedia any day.

 

[Izak]

Hey iltt, just because wikipedia calls those theatre roleplay things 'games' it doesn't mean they're RPGs, that's like saying Hide and Seek is a fantastic pen and paper roleplaying game because you can use stealth in P&P games.

 

[iltt]

Read again, mate.

If you consider Fallout 4 to be an ARPG, then you consider it an RPG. I've already explained how it allows you to define your role

As much of a shitfest that site is when compared to NMA, they are genuinely well informed in RPG discussion. Seriously, if I have to educate myself on what is and what is not RPGs, I'd rather go to RPGCodex over Wikipedia any day.

Sorry, but I don't want to go to a shit forum for something as asinine as a discussion on "realz rpgs"

Hey iltt, just because wikipedia calls those theatre roleplay things 'games' it doesn't mean they're RPGs, that's like saying Hide and Seek is a fantastic pen and paper roleplaying game because you can use stealth in P&P games.

Except Hide and Seek isn't a major influence on role playing games. Theatre Roleplays were.

 

[Black Angel]

If you consider Fallout 4 to be an ARPG, then you consider it an RPG. I've already explained how it allows you to define your role

Umm, no? ARPGs are, first and foremost, Action games. RPG aspect are only elements in form of parts, doesn't make it a full-fledged RPGs that tried to emulate P&P RPGs. Seems like you tried to avoid mentioning 'cRPG' and 'P&P RPG', and your 'explanation' probably that which have been parroted across the internet by people trying to justify Fallout 4 as an 'RPG'. If you want to know what I'm thinking, I agree with Risewild, and also most of the consensus here, coupled with RPGCodex's general consensus on what makes an 'video game RPGs': Games that tried it best to emulate Pen&Paper RPG.

Sorry, but I don't want to go to a shit forum for something as asinine as a discussion on "realz rpgs"

Then you're in the wrong place here, mate. NMA's basically a tame version of RPGCodex, currently asleep due to it being worn-out by Bethesda's fans coming here once in a while asking a question that sounds like, "What's with the hate for Fallout 4?", and over-optimistic people turning into apologists trying to argue how the DLCs will be better than the main game, and then argue how the next DLCs will be better than the previous, etc etc.

Me as a New Blood here seek to wake it up by begin posting new thread about upcoming genuine RPGs, and the rest of the New Blood are also seeking to set up an interview with Chris Avellone. Some of the Old Blood also seeking to set up an NMA's own Pen&Paper RPG, so when that come into fruition we will show what an 'RPG' is.

Except Hide and Seek isn't a major influence on role playing games. Theatre Roleplays were.

Urgh, care to elaborate further and give examples? No referencing to wikipedia. Look for other legit, genuinely informed sources.

 

[Ediros]

Well I am new to this site and even I can tell a difference between an RPG and a game with rpg elements (Farcryout 4). The term rpg means roleplaying game as you roleplay as a certain character. Let's take New Vegas, which is an action rpg unlike Fallout 1 and 2. It doesn't give you almost any background, you can do whatever you want and whenever you want. Your choices, your special, the way you play it all matters. However it relies on player skill quite a bit unlike the previous games. Is it bad? Not really. Does it fit an rpg? Not really.

Games like far cry, call of duty make you levep up but this does not make them rpgs.

Let's take the sims. At the first glance they may not seem like an RPG but there is a choice and consequence, your character is not a god that can do anything on his first try. He does not level up but he gains more skill etc. He can fight mummies and lose to them depending on their skill. He she does not have a set background or goal you absolutely have to follow. Truth to be told the sims are more of an rpg than Farcryout 4 could ever be.

The sims deconstruction is not made by me, I believe Mr Fish has done that first.

 

[Mr Fish]

The Sims is totally an RPG series. I mean, we're talking about 'roleplaying' here and who can argue with the amount of RPG elements that The Sims contains? In Sims 1 it has a stat system similar to SPECIAL in a way so that it defines your character but in subsequent titles it was replaced by a different (better IMO) system. If you tag your sim as being a slob then the game will depict just that and while you can try to force your character to go against what they are if you leave them alone for just a little bit they'll return to the behaviour that you set for them. Two Sims with contradicting personalities will have a hard time getting along, if they can even get along at all. The skills of your Sims will determine just how well they can do things. You try to cook without a good Cooking skill then the rest of the house may just ridicule the sim on their cooking and lose relationship points. If you try to play a guitar at some place then your Sim will be booed and get depressed at how shitty they are.

In The Sims you can roleplay as so many different things that you simply can't in other RPG's. You wanna be a painter who goes around WooHooing tons of people? You can do that. You wanna be a bum who's personality is so toxic and alienating that you can barely get friends and can't advance your job so that you're stuck in your shithole of an apartment? You can.

I had a writer who worked as a... (You know that job where you're hired to go make some rich fucks house look really good? That) as a part time job until the book took off and in that meantime he started to flirt a little with a married wife who was a movie star who's house was being feng shuei'd by me. She started to quite frankly become obsessed with my character and it got to the point that she left her husband and 2 kids just so that she could move in with me. Then it turned out she was a vampire and I got a mod so that I could kill people through drinking them and I started to shift my focus over to her stalking prey in the night.

Like, you can't do this in other RPG's. Yeah, you can get choices in quests and 'actual dialogue' but I'm struggling to find any RPG that is as flexible with its RPG elements apart from PnP RPG's.

"Create your own story", if there's any game where this truly works then it is The Sims.

Only shitty thing is that in order to fully enjoy it you pretty much need all of the expansions which costs waaaaaay too much. And of course, The Sims has absolutely no narrative or writing or structure at all. It is all up to the player to come up with those things, to interpret the "sim" dialogue in their own way. So I'm not saying it is inherently better than other RPG's, I'm just saying that when it comes to the flexibility of 'roleplaying' it blows most games out of the water, and it does that and yet it's not even considered an RPG by most people.

 

[Risewild]

""Theatre Games" created by Viola Spolin arose, in which players took on the roles of characters and improvised,"
"There is some evidence that assassin-style games may have been played in New York city by adults as early as 1920."
(...)
Daggerfall was extremely buggy and Morrowind's combat was shit. Basing everything on pen and paper elements in a computer program isn't always good, especially in a Elder Scrolls type game.

Again you are not reading all of the article, you are quoting small parts and picking words that might have something to do with the argument.
That quote comes from the section called Early Roleplaying and those "games" were social gatherings where some people would gather in a house and one of them would randomly be picked to be the assassin and the objective was to "murder" the rest of the guests before being found out, while all the rest of the "guests" would try to find out who the assassin was (basically it was a kind of real life Sherlock Holmes or Hercule Poirot novel). People would roleplay (because they were pretending to be someone they were not) and that was it (still a kind of theatre because the assassin would usually have to leave specific clues and evidence provided by the organiser of the event and the assassin was usually also following a script).
The actual RPGs were using that roleplay mixed in with the rules from figurines and war tabletop games (the article also mention that this mix is what allowed to create the RPG genre).

Daggerfall was buggy but so is Fallout 4, and yet Daggerfall worked quite well as a RPG and just like Morrowind, it is way more of a RPG, has much deeper characters, locations, quests, factions, even exploration than any other Bethesda game made after them.

Just because you think the older TES games system does not work does not mean that is true because it is up to opinion. I know many people that prefer the Daggerfall and Morrowind systems way more than newer Bethesda games and those people also think they worked much better .
Usually those people are the ones who love RPGs.