What's Trump up to now?

[Prone Squanderer]

Why?

If money is the problem, than this could be fixed like tomorrow. I don't get it. And I feel that you guys are arguing for the sake of arguing. For example, I feel that you guys would oppose everything, as long it's coming from a liberal/progressive/leftist. Regardless if it makes sense or not. - I am not saying leftists make always sense or that there aren't some really huge idiots on my side of the spectrum, but you're pretty much the other side of the coin.

Woah slow down there pal. I'm not opposing anything. I am saying that everyone having everything they need and want just isn't going to happen.

Anyway, there is enough money floating around to make all of that happen, to allow fair wages for everyone and to make sure that people can have decent lifes.

All people? Every single person out there?

I admire the thought but it just won't happen.

You guys have very skewed priorities in my opinion. That wouldn't be much of a problem, if you just left the rest of the world alone. But sadly a lot of american policies have a huge effect on other nations.

If the US wasn't doing what it does, chances are another country would. EDIT: I'm not condoning what the US does just to make that clear.

I'm not American by the way.

Has Trump done anything recently? I've not heard any recent news.

 

[DarkCorp]

Again Crni, nobody here has said that America DOESN'T have its problems, we do.

However, having a Bernie Sanders style knee jerk reaction isn't the way to solve those problems. Adopting euro socialism is NOT the way to solve those problems. Giving people whatever the fuck they consider, decent, isn't the correct way to go about solving the problem.

We need to fix what we have NOW, not add a whole bunch of new shit to muck things up even worse.

We can bring back Glass Steagall. We can tax financial speculation and use that money to fix government services that are suffering already. We need to replace coal with a combination of nuclear and other cleaner methods to keep jobs intact.

 

[TheGM]

Just repeating how dumb we are and that our points make no sense

well there is something we all can agree on.

cochise.

When they close a post like you did it means you really got to them. which is just silly.

I think you are mistaken. You think we are having an discussion in which two side make an argument on their position. nothing could be further from the truth. see you are making a sales pitch and I gotta say you doing a fine job in selling how fucking out there people have become. But I still ain't buying.

 

[Crni Vuk]

All people? Every single person out there?

I admire the thought but it just won't happen.

Why not? It certainly can't be an issue of money or resources, both are still enough to make it happen. It's purely a political and ideological problem.

Don't you think that it is telling how Americans managed to get to the Moon in the late 60s but for some reason can not provide their citiens with decent wages and ways to protect the environment? I find this very bizare, when you're looking at what people expected our century to be in the 1950s and 60s and what we ... managed to so far.

Why can't someone get on the stage and say, hey! Let us get independed from fossil fuel in the next 20 or 30 years. Or let us become climate neutral till the 2040 or something. Is this so unrealistic? No, it isn't those are achieveable goals. And in fact, the technology is already available, and a lot more are in the works. But just sitting there, saying oh well it's doable but the challanges are still to huge right now! We can't achieve this prosperity for everyone! So let us not even try! This thinking certainly hasn't got a man to the moon. Nor was it ever the motivation behind any kind of progress.

I am not sure if the numbers are right, but I have read that if we would stop to like fund all our military budges for one day, we could provide everything we need for one year. We as a species have simply not our priorities in order, and as a result we're starting to do some serious damage to this planet. Look, I do understand the need and idea for defences and we can not just get rid of every weapon, tank or military just like that and we probably never will. But how much is there to protect once we fuck up this planet to a 'point of no return', and any serious science says that this will still happen in our life time. Now I am in my early 30s and I guess most people here are in their 20s maybe even a bit younger. You will have to deal with this when you get in your 40s, 50s and 60s. And over time those effects get only worse and more difficult to work with.

No one is saying that we have to make everyone a billionair or something like that, but our current economies and way of life, is simply not sustainable in the long run. And there is a lot of hard science behind to support that. Communism, or what the Soviets thought communism was, held their system together for almost 80 years. But at some point, it was simply not sustainable anymore and it collapsed. Maybe we have to face this reality as well.

 

[DarkCorp]

in the late 60s

Going to the moon was a hard sell and only managed to get enough backing because it was justified as a DEFENSE expenditure. We needed to stay technologically ahead of the SU, much like how we had stealth technologies DECADES, before our closest competitor. So really, the moon program was more military in nature and isn't defense cuts one of the things you are so fond of?

Also, the population of America back then was around 194 million. American companies dominated as there was much less competition, compared with today. We still manufactured things, something we no longer do. It was a different time.

the technology is already available

Is it cost efficient for the average Joe? Is it cost efficient for the government to implement on a massive scale? Will such technology satisfy the power requirements of the nation? Will there be jobs to replace the ones lost during the transition?

lets not try

We actually are trying. That is why, regardless of the doom and gloom message leftists constantly spout, life is GOOD in America. Change is happening. The problem is, change isn't happening fast enough to suit the crazed left, hence the constant bitching. The only thing I can support you on is climate change, even if the doom and gloom scenario varies wildly.

would stop to like fund all our military budges for one day

And how much is that amount exactly? I highly doubt you can compare one days military expense to the cost of a slew of social programs, FOREVER.

certainly can't be an issue of money or resources, both are still enough to make it happen

Where is that money going to come from? Defense, we can't cut that and even if we did, it would be trimming the fat, a portion, definitely not enough to pay for all the free shit, by itself. Taxes? The middle class, poor and employers cannot afford an across the board tax hike. Taxes on financial speculation isn't enough. The bank bailout you talk about so much, that was a ONE TIME THING. What you talk about Crni, your social programs are in perpetuity.

Seriously Crni, what part of Germany has 80 million and we have 320 MILLION people,do you not understand? We have FOUR times your population. What part of, you guys can afford free shit because the U.S. pays for the majority of the defense budget, do you not get? Free education, free healthcare, UBI, all that is MUCH more manageable when you have less mouths to feed over all.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Seriously Crni, what part of Germany has 80 million and we have 320 MILLION people,do you not understand? We have FOUR times your population. What part of, you guys can afford free shit because the U.S. pays for the majority of the defense budget, do you not get? Free education, free healthcare, UBI, all that is MUCH more manageable when you have less mouths to feed over all.

Why is this some kind of argument? If you have like 4 times the population of Germany, should you also not have more income as well? More resources? How comes half of Europe can do something you guys can't as the richest and largest economy in the world ... we don't have those incredibly large corporations that make trillions, Apple, Google, Microsoft, Wal-Mart, Mc Donalds you name it ... and yet you always repeat this same mantra over and over again ... where is the money supposed to come from! What has Joe Pleble from this! Yada Yada Yada ... how about, his children will survive and have clean water? What's more important, like literaly, water you can drink, or mining coal?

Maybe you (You in like the United States) have at some point to decide what the really important priorities are, that you simply can not sustain such a large defence budged anymore, that you HAVE to trim the fat if necessary, or to face a situation where the US has to chose between defence or the environment. It seems that more and more signs point in that direction. And hands down, most of the money is not spend on defence but for military contractors. In other words. Stocks. Making again sure, that a lot of people stay wealthy. No one buys this anymore, that you need 5 times the defence of Russia or China combined or something to succesfully defend your self from them, particularly if turns out that Russia really has one way or another influenced the ellection. Curious how many bombers and tanks help in such a situation.

I will say this again, to defend something, you need something that is worth to be defended in the first place. We have only one planet, this one. And we're nearing a point where we will seriously fuck it up. Not in 500 years or some science fiction scenario. It will happen in the next 50 years. It's already happening. Scientists all over the world say that it is about time to make some heavy changes, like now, if we want to prevent the worst from happening. And this will hit everyone, your precious joe plebe like that fucked somalian that is starving. What do you think will people in New York do when the ocean level is rising? What will people do when less and less land is fertile? When dust storms increase and things become more chaotic? Eat coal and drinking oil? But hey! At least you will have a lot of military bases operating all over the world, all those rockets and weapons will be a huge help against climate change.

We are again in a situation where have to defend our self, the US as well just as much as everyone, but not from some enemy like the SU but from our own descrutive behaviour. Why is this so different for you? The idea in the past was to defend from a communist regime, it was about survival staying on the edge. This is nothing different. Millions of people will suffer, maybe even die if nothing is done.



I mean if you don't trust NASA in this, experts ... than I don't know ... than maybe the Americans really are doomed, the sad thing is they will drag a lot of us with them as well.

We actually are trying. That is why, regardless of the doom and gloom message leftists constantly spout, life is GOOD in America. Change is happening. The problem is, change isn't happening fast enough to suit the crazed left, hence the constant bitching. The only thing I can support you on is climate change, even if the doom and gloom scenario varies wildly.

Evey scientist must be a leftist then I guess.

I mean puuuh ... climate change or jobs ... that is really a tough question I guess ...

However, you are absolutely right about one thing ... we are not in the 60s anymore and it is a very different time ...

 

[DarkCorp]

should you also not have more income as well? More resources?

Not necessarily.

More people means more money is required to maintain the basics. Second, we do have a military budget to factor in. Third, our tax rates are lower, which means less money going to the federal government. It is simply put, a false equivalency. It like how Bernie Sanders says we can just copy Nordic socialism while ignoring the vast differences between the nations.

In regards to climate, yea, I think we can agree there. Thing is, climate change has Zilch to do with free shit, which is what I am arguing primarily against.

 

[Cimmerian Nights]

Do you know what the American society reminds me to?

Can you fill me in on the depth of your first-hand experience with said society, the kind that doesn't involve sitting behind a screen at your mom's? Because I don't know how you've convinced yourself it's Thunderdome on the Titanic.

Good grief, with the drama and the hyperbole man. It's all apocalyptic catastrophes, partisan platitudes and filiblusterery walls of texts and pretentious youtube clips you post over and over and over and over again.

 

[BigGuyCIA]

that you simply can not sustain such a large defence budged anymore

It's easily sustainable. It's also dropped quite a bit since 2010, even more so since the 50's and 60's (which is understandable). Our military spending is only 3-4% of our GDP.

The US's expenditure for defense is roughly 17%, compared to the combined 50 or so percent for domestic services and programs.

You probably think a reduction in military spending and an increase in welfare is a good thing, right? You also probably think people should only make just enough.

 

[YeeCop]

Don't you think that it is telling how Americans managed to get to the Moon in the late 60s but for some reason can not provide their citizens with decent wages and ways to protect the environment? I find this very bizarre, when you're looking at what people expected our century to be in the 1950s and 60s and what we ... managed to so far.

Citizens of the US are provided with a fair wage. That being said, if a country like the States was in an economic slump, would something like the moon landing happen then?

Why can't someone get on the stage and say, hey! Let us get independent from fossil fuel in the next 20 or 30 years. Or let us become climate neutral till the 2040 or something. Is this so unrealistic? No, it isn't those are achievable goals.

Big Oil has a considerable grasp on the world. They're not gonna just willingly step down from their thrones for the betterment of the common folk.

I am not sure if the numbers are right, but I have read that if we would stop to like fund all our military budges for one day, we could provide everything we need for one year.

Uhm, I remember the statistics was something like maybe a week or two of cease-funding the military. Either way, that's a serious detriment to world peace and would create more issues.

No one is saying that we have to make everyone a billionaire or something like that, but our current economies and way of life, is simply not sustainable in the long run.

This is true. However, most of the solutions you've proposed aren't very practical, like plugging defense spending. Socialism knee-jerking would solve these issues you're talking about to an extent, but it would sprout up worse issues in turn.

 

[Crni Vuk]

OK then!

Looks like this is going nowhere right now. So, let me ask you something.

Your society is without a doubt build on the thought of oportunity, the idea that people should have jobs. A man - figuratively speaking, is the sum of his achievements. Work hard, and be succesfull, learn much and earn much.

But, what is your answer to this:

 

[MutantScalper]

You can't deny that I'm right, though.

Stop being a dick. I've seen Hostel and Hostel 2, I know what Slovakia is like.

As far as the other points raised, food is a big issue in US. There is a lack of food, any type of food, in USA. Children that go to sleep every night hungry and malnourished. Then there is obesity which is one of the reasons why the average lifespan of US citizens is falling. Just like vodka is killing Russian men, fast food, uhealthy food, eating too much is killing US citizens. Then there is the whole GMO/Monsanto/etc. thing, 'frankenfood' etc. corporations having 'copyright' over food etc. Just crazy.

 

[BigGuyCIA]

OK then!

Looks like this is going nowhere right now. So, let me ask you something.

Your society is without a doubt build on the thought of oportunity, the idea that people should have jobs. A man - figuratively speaking, is the sum of his achievements. Work hard, and be succesfull, learn much and earn much.

But, what is your answer to this:

Unavoidable reality but the video is short sighted in scope. Social Media Manager, Instagram model, Youtube "content creator," etc. Who would have known that occupations like these would spring up in 2001 - even after the dot com bubble?

There are jobs that will exist 10-20 years from now that will seem absurd to us in the present.

Also, American society isn't built on the idea that we should all have jobs - it's defined by three very specific things in the D.O.I. Read up.

 

[YeeCop]

Your society is without a doubt build on the thought of opportunity, the idea that people should have jobs. A man - figuratively speaking, is the sum of his achievements. Work hard, and be successful, learn much and earn much.

Nope. American society is built on three principles - life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Well of course this is gonna happen. Do you want to halt the progress of AI just so Johnny Smith can keep his night-shift at McDicks?

 

[DarkCorp]

Like I said before, if we get to a point where we are able to rely upon a robotic slave force, then UBI could become reality and a method for dealing with unemployment.

 

[Hassknecht]

I don't give a shit, I'm one of those people who won't get obsolete in the foreseeable future.
Unless the Singularity happens, but then we're all wearing togas in crystal spires anyway. Or we're fucked. Either way, it's the great equalizer.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Yeah, Hass that is all nice an dandy once you think about that if you're one of those lucky few with a 'save' job that well more and more people will try to get in that field as well . If that is the only way to still make a living, that alone is a pretty huge motivation!

Unavoidable reality but the video is short sighted in scope. Social Media Manager, Instagram model, Youtube "content creator," etc. Who would have known that occupations like these would spring up in 2001 - even after the dot com bubble?

There are jobs that will exist 10-20 years from now that will seem absurd to us in the present.

Also, American society isn't built on the idea that we should all have jobs - it's defined by three very specific things in the D.O.I. Read up.

So you watched it, but you didn't understand it.

Youtube content creators? Media managers, Instagram Model? No offense, but you're nuts. That's like the idea of an artist society happening from all this job loss or something.

Again, remember what they said in the video, "Better technology, makes more better jobs for horses humans".

If you think that millions of people in 20 or 30 or if you want 50 years can become content creators, project managers, instagram models or what ever little jobs Facebook and Twitter can produce, than you're more delusional than I am, and that should tell you something.

This goes in to something the Left has promised a lot of people 30 years ago with the idea of globalisation - and I still hate them for that, and I am a leftist by the way, it have been many social democrats and leftists that made the neo-con ideas possible. Just outsource the bad, difficult and dirty production jobs in to third world countries and developing nations! We will all just become programmers here! The reality wasn't turning out exactly like that though, when you're looking at the biggest employers in the United States right now or if you want Germany and that is the service industry, not programmers, engineers or technicians.

Not to mention that no one's guaranteeing that most of those jobs you're talking about, couldn't be possibly done by machines as well. if you want even 'models'. Unrealistic? Think about what holographic technology and CGI is capable of doing already today. Whole actors are replaced already in some movies - Star Wars Roque One as example, where at least two actors have been modified by CGI. It is just a matter of time before human acotrs, will be eventually completely removed from the equation.

Literaly no job, is save from automatition. That's the reality.

But even if you think all the job loss could be somehow averted by what ever unknown technlogoy and branches is behind it, you could at least hypothetically try to answer the question. What a society like the US American one should do if let us say 40% of even 50% if not even more of the population is suddenly without a job. Would you just tell people they had bad luck? And that they should suck it up or something? I am genuely curious about your ideas how such a society should work, at least roughly.

Well of course this is gonna happen. Do you want to halt the progress of AI just so Johnny Smith can keep his night-shift at McDicks?

Actually no, I don't oppose this I actually welcome this evolution as I believe that progress in our society is right now at a halt it's stale, and I am not talking about technological progress which will happen regardless what ever if society is going forward or not. And I tend to believe that this technological and digital revolution that is just around the corner, will create one way or another preasure, leading to new concepts, ideas and braketroughs just as how the industrial revolution has lead to the social state and the idea of the 'modern' state - even if you don't see the United States as a social state, there can be no doubt that it is more social than what it was in the 17th century. One way or another there was some form of social progress.

What worries me is how ill prepared the political and economical elite of our western civilisiation is regarding this change in our society. And how blind many of them are to the effects.

The changes and transition we're facing right now, requires nothing short of a change in what we define as 'work', the absolute principles that stand behind it, particularly if almost every kind of work can be done by machines. The philosophical ideas that are behind the idea of work I mean. Is the humans existance defined by working or do we just work to exist? In other words, if there would be absolutely no necessity to work, would humans look for something else to do? Or would we just all become lazy and sitting around doing nothing, simply because right now work is for most people rather a neccessity than a luxury. The new technological evolutions infront of us, will require to reshape and rethink the idea of work, just as how new generations of computers might challange our perception of awareness and consciousness, once machines have the capability to not only detect but to also manipulate their environment in the same ways humans do, in other words if we have machines that learn.

But I digress, what I really wanted to know was what your 'concept' is for the challanges that we're facing in the near future. I see that a lot of people here hold some Neo-Conservative ideas, and I am just genuely interested to hear what you guys think should be done in the event of let us say 50% unemplyoment rate in the United States.

 

[BigGuyCIA]

So you watched it, but you didn't understand it.

Youtube content creators? Media managers, Instagram Model? No offense, but you're nuts. That's like the idea of an artist society happening from all this job loss or something.

Your head is so deep in the sand that the entire point came by, looked at you, took pity, and moved on.

If you think that millions of people in 20 or 30 or if you want 50 years can become content creators, project managers, instagram models or what ever little jobs Facebook and Twitter can produce, than you're more delusional than I am, and that should tell you something. Not to mention that no one's guaranteeing that most of those jobs, if you want even 'models' couldn't be possibly done by machines as well. Unrealistic? Think about what holographic technology and CGI is capable of doing already today. Whole actors are replaced already in some movies, by younger versions - Star Wars Roque One as example, where at least two actors have been modified by CGI. It is just a matter of time before human interaction, will be eventually completely removed from the equation.

No, the entire fucking point is that the jobs of the future don't exist today. It's reactive. The social media blitz was an example to highlight how the advertising industry adapted to so many people using Facebook, Twitter, etc. They hired people into positions like Social Media manager, coordinator, etc. These roles didn't exist and PR managers/staff didn't do anything related to social media.

Literaly no job, is save from automatition. That's the reality.

What's your point? That eventually unbound A.I. will replace all humans?

Why is everything a doom and gloom, moral high horse charade with you?

If your profile age is accurate then it really puts this whole "scaring myself to sleep" bit into context.

But even if you think all the job loss could be somehow averted by what ever unknown technlogoy and branches is behind it, you could at least hypothetically try to answer the question. What a society like the US American one should do if let us say 40% of even 50% if not even more of the population is suddenly without a job. Would you just tell people they had bad luck? And that they should suck it up or something? I am genuely curious about your ideas how such a society should work, at least roughly.

Because it won't happen. Intelligence is the ability to adapt to change. People go back to school and adapt to the changing job market.

 

[Crni Vuk]

You would make a really good politican, spining points around till they fit your narrative. Maybe you will really be save from this job los? Huh, would have thought.

These roles didn't exist and PR managers/staff didn't do anything related to social media.

Think again how many jobs are currently in the service sector and the transportation industry alone and then think how many PR jobs and social media jobs are available right now. Do you really think there will be a need for 20+ million PR managers and Youtube content creators in 20 years or so? Again, you're delusional.

What's your point? That eventually unbound A.I. will replace all humans?

Why is everything a doom and gloom, moral high horse charade with you?

Because transitions of that scope are usually very serious? Think about what happend during the industrial revolution, or what the abolishment of slavery (the idea, not the civil war) caused in the society of their time of which some have been better prepared than others. Geting rid of Monarchies lead to Napoleon and the modern state, the industrial revolutions created whole new social classes with labor movements, tensions in societies incrased, etc. You could even go so far and make the argument, that all this growing transgender movements are a sign of societies in their final stage and cultural collapse. See here:


But that just by the way. The main point is, that in the past you usually had local changes, not global ones. And particularly not at the speed we're experiencing right now. What we see happening right now, with the example of climate change, globalisation, the forming of a world economy and so on are changes on a well global scale. But there is one deceisive difference here. It is completely detached from nation states. So what ever influence - in either positive or negative ways - happend trough states, in other words the people, is now becoming less of a factor. The financial sector alone is concentrating more and more power and wealth into a handfull of people for example.

Do I sound hyperbolic? Maybe. But ask your self, just in the case of global warming if not a bit more awareness of the problem would be actually a good thing, you know. The thing is, you might say I am exagerating, but I am saying, I hope that I am exagerating but I fear I am not. But looking at what experts at NASA and scientists all over the world say, it seems we're having very rough times ahead. I mean I have no clue where you're living right now, but climate change will hit you as much like everyone else, you know that, right? And a substantial part of the political elites are completely oblivious to the issues at hand.

Because it won't happen. Intelligence is the ability to adapt to change. People go back to school and adapt to the changing job market

Alright! So if I asked from you right now to become an expert in quantum computing, you could do it just like that? Flipping around Q-Bits, quantum entaglement and cryptography, bit of gama functions here and there, easy peasy lemon squezy right?

Seriously, what kind of idea do you have how people actually learn and work? A 45 year old truck driver with 2 kidz, who has spend his last 20 years on high ways is now becoming an App designer for Google or something? Or maybe a model for Instagram! Maybe getting a sex change too, since female models earn usually more than their male counter parts.

Are you nuts? No offense, but in what kind of utopian bubble do you live? Is this your answer, just 'work' harder or 'learn' more?

I suggest you look at this again:

 

[BigGuyCIA]

You would make a really good politican, spining points around till they fit your narrative. Maybe you will really be save from this job los? Huh, would have thought.

Beats being a dollar store moron selling pencils from a cup, that's for sure.

Think again how many jobs are currently in the service sector and the transportation industry alone and then think how many PR jobs and social media jobs are available right now.

You can look at Uber for an example of what happens when the industry fails to foresee and adapt to change. The smallest violin played for the numerous cab companies that had to literally petition city councils to stop Uber from setting up shop in urban centers because they needed time to catch up and adapt their archaic business model.

Do you really think there will be a need for 20+ million PR managers and Youtube content creators in 20 years or so?

No, same reason why we don't have any positions for Ice cutters with the invention of refrigeration and air conditioning technology.

I'm completely miffed as to why you keep attaching this extraordinarily large number to occupations I used as an example for a greater point. Do you still not understand the notion that jobs will exist in the future for people to grow into?

Again, you're delusional.

Again, you're an idiot.

Alright! So if I asked from you right now to become an expert in quantum computing, you could do it just like that? Flipping around Q-Bits, quantum entaglement and cryptography, big of gama functions here and there, easy peasy lemon squezy right?

No - here's my reality: I'm already going back to school to further my education in programming in response to high demand for STEM majors. Afterwards, I will be pursuing an MBA and getting into a managerial role within the same scope of computer science. I have a goal, and I am pursuing it. I am not responsible for the decisions that other people make - only my own. If somebody is content with working in a field that's due to be replaced soon, then that is their prerogative, so long as they're aware of that reality.

Seriously, what kind of idea do you have how people actually learn and work? A 45 year old truck driver with 2 kidz, who has spend his last 20 years on high ways is now becoming an App designer for Google or something? Or maybe a model for Instagram! Maybe getting a sex change too, since female models earn usually more than their male counter parts.

No, future generations will obviously adapt to those markets and changes. It's a gradual shift and not an abrupt one. We're not even at the point where robots can fully replace menial jobs that have a face-to-face interaction with customers. Truck drivers aren't going to be phased out entirely, but it's already happening for a different reason (shortage of drivers).

You can keep linking videos thinking it supports your case, but quite frankly I suspect even you don't understand the implication of half these videos. You can't even grasp the point I'm making without setting up an elaborate strawman and going off on some hyperbolic tangent.

If there's one job I hope they do phase out, it's one of sitting on an Internet forum, bitching and moaning endlessly about problems from a high horse of morality with zero nuance and pragmatism.