Why do people think New Vegas was actually good?

[BiggumsBoi]

If New Vegas quests are "overly simple", then Fallout 3 and 4 quests are baby's first quests due to how ridiculously simple pretty much all of them are.

And most quests aren't "overly simple" in New Vegas, that's factually wrong.

If you are a story elitist, then 3, 4 and 76 will indeed piss you off given how atrocious their stories are. New Vegas is the only 3D Fallout that actually gives a shit when it comes to story.

on quests
remember the BoS? and how their longest questline is just 2x3 fetch quests, followed by 3 more that at least have dungeons attached to them? Or the radio one that has you walk to ncr camps to talk to one npc then come back to do that 3 more times because the inital 5-6 wasn't enough? NV has some of the worse quests at its bottom end, lots of busywork and padding in their design.
As for story, you can have your own opinion. Shit like the legion and NCR asking a mail man to destroy the BoS for them without providing any aid, all 4 routes sending you on the same quests for the most part, the shallowness and poor execution of the legion (which in its own way makes the main quest black vs 3 shades of white), and displayed lack of autonomy from the factions hurts the main story in my opinion. Hell, the way it was written I used to think the independent route had yesman go skynet when he said he would be "more assertive" until I learned the devs just meant he only listens to you.
Ball was dropped in to many places, working for house should have lead to you being the leader of the chairmen, the legion shouldn't get off as much on committing atrocities if you wanted them to be a less evil group, Benny is underutilized, house wants the dude that failed him at the start because of a handful of drugdealer and benny were able to stop him to trick the legion and ncr? The game starts very grounded in a way that I like, then rips that from my hands and has me playing daddy to all the factions because the core groups are pathetic at getting anything done compared to Benny and the first encounter with the khans you have. It's the same issue 3 has and its a shame that no one wants to ever fix that in any of these games

 

[Lidku]

Good criticism but honestly your argument is pretty circular. NV Quests on its own I admit can be redundant in some places, but overall to Fallout 3 and most viciously 4's were completely shit-tier. 3 I can accept to have some bad things because it was Bethesda's first time delving in the series, but it had an abysmally low amount of side-quests (a measly 17 aswell compared to Fallout NV's 75 quests even with time constraints) - much less even a palpable main questline. Fallout NV's questline actually had player choice atleast despite your tirade against it. No matter what in 3 you always had to be on the Brotherhood's alignment (thats not to say I'm an Enclave fanboy, it just irked me at the time).

Even when you were allowed choice (which always had to be an Evil route conveniently for Bethesda style writing) it always propped you to the position of the Brotherhood no matter what. Poison the water supply with the FEV? Come Broken Steel and the BoS don't give a fuck, it just contaminates the Potomac and Aqura Pura, and almost no one mentions it. At the end of Broken Steel- bomb the Citadel? For what after all that fighting against the Enclave, why would an Evil aligned Wanderer even do that for the sake of it? So sure you can drone on about the "daddy" thing or whatever you yokeled on about with factions, but obviously in the RPG your the main character, its practically present in all games like this where the key figure of the plot is the player. (EDIT: Ironically almost half of Fallout 3's plot you literally have to search out for your "Daddy" because Besthesda thought that would be an engaging plot.. which would they would then shoehorn later with Fallout 4 again where its on the opposite end...)

Now taking that out the way its practically clear why your argument against NV is a fallancy. With the short time they even had, they were able to present 4 different routes of genuine choice you can go on and a much better crafted dynamic story than Fallout 3 ever had. You also say its a "shade of black against 3 whites" when it couldn't be further from the truth. In this case I'd assume you meant the Legion they aren't really bad at all if you take in the lens of the setting of Fallout as a whole and how Wastelanders survive post-war.

The Legion brings stability, bustling trade networks, raider cleansed lands so Wastelanders can actually live semi-peacefuly, etc. Though the Legion has clear downsides with its Imperialistic view on Post-War tribal groups, slavery, a genuinely autocratic regime. Part of deciding if you side with the Legion ultimately comes down to your personal morality or views. Branding the legion as a black sheep faction is ludicrous and obviously your genuinely taking it surface level deliberately. All four factions present an engaging dynamic keypoint on who you think should rule the Mojave going forward. If you want "Black and White" stick with Fallout 3 or even (shudders) Fallout 4 which even tried to pull the mult-faction dynamism of NV but still somehow managed to be a full on Black and White situation with a Blade-Runner thematic shoehorned in. (A Blade-Runner style motif in the Fallout series no less, a game explicitly about Post-Nuclear retrofuturism )

 

[Lidku]

Also to boot where exactly has OP run off to? I didn't get to check this entire thread yet, but did he run off and not bother to conclude his argument?

 

[Norzan]

Either he got pissed that he didn't get the response he wanted (he mentions in a post in the first page something about people in another site saying he was trolling when he made a similar thread there) and left, or another case of trolling for a day or two and then dip after.

He did come back after like a week only to say that the Wastelanders DLC for Fallout 76 is good. Hasn't shown up since Tuesday.

 

[Lidku]

lol I just checked and he didn't even bother to counter anything past his page 1 . This was a "Baby's Day Out" episode I suppose.

 

[Risewild]

I guess this is as good of a chance as any other to post the pics I made, using the wikia to compare Fallout 2, Fallout 3 and Fallout New Vegas Main Quests:

Spoiler: Fallout 2 Main Quest

Spoiler: Fallout 3 Main Quest

Spoiler: Fallout New Vegas Main Quest

Take what conclusions you want from them.

 

[0wing]

Oh right, yeah I can see coomers playing Fallout 4 for the Loverslab mods.

Yuck.

At least now F4 has purpose...

 

[BiggumsBoi]

Good criticism but honestly your argument is pretty circular. NV Quests on its own I admit can be redundant in some places, but overall Fallout 3 and most viciously 4's were completely shit-tier. 3 I can accept to have some bad things because it was Bethesda's first time delving in the series, but it had an abysmally low amount of side-quests (a measly 17 aswell compared to Fallout NV's 75 quests even with time constraints) - much less even a palpable main questline. Fallout NV's questline actually had player choice atleast despite your tirade against it. No matter what in 3 you always had to be on the Brotherhood's alignment (thats not to say I'm an Enclave fanboy, it just irked me at the time).

Even when you were allowed choice (which always had to be an Evil route conveniently for Bethesda style writing) it always propped you to the position of the Brotherhood no matter what. Poison the water supply with the FEV? Come Broken Steel and the BoS don't give a fuck, it just contaminates the Potomac and Aqura Pura, and almost no one mentions it. At the end of Broken Steel- bomb the Citadel? For what after all that fighting against the Enclave, why would an Evil aligned Wanderer even do that for the sake of it? So sure you can drone on about the "daddy" thing or whatever you yokeled on about with factions, but obviously in the RPG your the main character, its practically present in all games like this where the key figure of the plot as the player. (EDIT: Ironically almost half of Fallout 3's plot you literally have to search out for your "Daddy" because Besthesda thought that would be an engaging plot.. which would they would then shoehorn later with Fallout 4 again where its on the opposite end...)

Now taking that out the way its practically clear why your argument against NV is a fallancy. With the short time they even had, they were able to present 4 different routes of genuine choice you can go on and a much better crafted dynamic story than Fallout 3 ever had. You also say its a "shade of black against 3 whites" when it couldn't be further from the truth. In this case I'd assume you meant the Legion they aren't really bad at all if you take in the lens of the setting of Fallout as a whole and how Wastelanders survive post-war.

The Legion brings stability, bustling trade networks, raider cleansed lands so Wastelanders can actually live semi-peacefuly, etc. Though the Legion has clear downsides with its Imperialistic view on Post-War tribal groups, slavery, a genuinely autocratic regime. Part of deciding if you side with the Legion ultimately comes down to your personal morality or views. Branding the legion as a black sheep faction is ludicrous and obviously your genuinely taking it surface level deliberately. All four factions present an engaging dynamic keypoint on who you think should rule the Mojave going forward. If you want "Black and White" stick with Fallout 3 or even (shudders) Fallout 4 which even tried to pull the mult-faction dynamism of NV but still somehow managed to be a full on Black and White situation with a Blade-Runner thematic shoehorned in. (A Blade-Runner style motif in the Fallout series no less, a game explicitly about Post-Nuclear retrofuturism )

I agree with you on this more than I don't, I just like pointing out the flaws among all the games in the series. NV focuses on having more quests which is good, but the numbers are really fudged because plenty of the quests are mirrored versions from one side to another, or broken up into like 5 parts (I'm thinking the ncr retaking the one town from the legion) when its really just one quest in total. The choice in 3 is horrible because nothing actually plays out differently and I am expected to pretend something different happens because the ending says so. NV has the same issue, and the og bioshock has the same issue. Just because NV choice is better than 3's is in the main plot, doesn't make it any less underwhelming.

Better than 3 is not the same thing as good. NV has a fairly mediocre plot, that has too many minor inconsistencies in logic (major factions over-reliance on you as well as them making poor decisions, being dumb for the sake of the plot to work bogs it all down with over-convenience.) as well as NV suffers from equally stupid consistency in many places like the fact you can blow everyone to hell in lonesome road, then no one cares if you hit the hand-holding of the main quest, getting the mark and being forgiven.

The legion is introduced to torture and kill people they disagree with, lack honor in keeping their word in the khans quest, is run by a weak fragile man that is a living hypocrisy, and is poorly implemented to be anything other than evil. Acting as if house or the ncr has not created any stability is just dishonest, and all the game gives you is heresay to believe they are more stable than the other groups. The legion in the actual game does not present itself well. Their leaders simply want to conquer or destroy.

 

[Norzan]

major factions over-reliance on you

Let's forget the fact you have the Platinum Chip and they want it.

as well as NV suffers from equally stupid consistency in many places like the fact you can blow everyone to hell in lonesome road, then no one cares if you hit the hand-holding of the main quest, getting the mark and being forgiven.

They forgive you because you have the Platinum Chip. Hoover Damn is far more important than whatever place you blow up. It's no different than killing a bunch of Legion soldiers in a camp and then Caesar forgives you because he wants the platinum chip.

The rest of your post is filled with so much bullshit i'm not gonna even bother. But i'll throw this: you are conveniently forgetting a ton of information presented in the game just so that you can make your extremely flimsly arguments. If you can call them that.

 

[Deleted member 98605]

A bunch of rocks looks better than a pile of shit. One could be made into an art-piece, even. The other is just garbage.

NV has faults. We have spent years talking about them. But not a lot of bitching or disdain, compared to 3. When the biggest point of contention for a game is 'which ending is better', compared to 'why the fuck does this exist', the former game is objectively better.

 

[BiggumsBoi]

Let's forget the fact you have the Platinum Chip and they want it.

Actually, more often than not you don't have it. I'll do it as bullets for rn.
>NCR doesn't care if I remember right, doesn't know what its for.
>Legion stumbles across the bunker for it, and if Benny wasn't killed by you actually has the chip and fucking hand it to you, some rando, rather than trusting it with their men to destroy, nor just he have you watched or check your work, something he said he was doing before
>House will wait forever for you to get it back for him, rather then hiring others (just put in some flavor text of failed attempts for gods sake)
So 2 factions don't care for the chip, one of them will actively take stupid pills for the plot to progress. Still better than 3, but definitely not a masterclass of writing. If the ncr or legion wanted it they would have made a move to stop you, but their frozen waiting for the plot to happen

 

[Norzan]

>NCR doesn't care if I remember right, doesn't know what its for.

NCR hires you because you talked with Mr. House. They know what the Platinum Chip is and hire you specifically because they want to find more about Mr. House.

>Legion stumbles across the bunker for it, and if Benny wasn't killed by you actually has the chip and fucking hand it to you, some rando, rather than trusting it with their men to destroy, nor just he have you watched or check your work, something he said he was doing before

You are not some rando, you are the fucking person he tried to kill. He knows that you know how important the chip is, hence why he hands it to you.

>House will wait forever for you to get it back for him, rather then hiring others (just put in some flavor text of failed attempts for gods sake)

Because Mr. House is very secretive about his plan and doesn't hire people willy-nilly. The only reason he even hires you in the first place is because you have the Platinum Chip. Do you really think he's gonna hire more people, giving an higher chance for his plan to be ousted?

So 2 factions don't care for the chip

Two factions care for it and one knows what it is.

Did you actually played the game or are you just parroting someone else's review of the game? Again, you are missing a lot of information presented by the game.

If the ncr or legion wanted it they would have made a move to stop you, but their frozen waiting for the plot to happen

You mean like most games? Timed events aren't exactly celebrated. Fallout 1's timed quest for the water chip was criticised by a lot of people, hence why Fallout 2 doesn't attempt it with the main quest.

Not to mention they do attempt to stop you the lower your reputation is with those factions by sending death squads after you.

 

[BiggumsBoi]

You are not some rando, you are the fucking person he tried to kill. He knows that you know how important the chip is, hence why he hands it to you.


Because Mr. House is very secretive about his plan and doesn't hire people willy-nilly. The only reason he even hires you in the first place is because you have the Platinum Chip. Do you really think he's gonna hire more people, giving an higher chance for his plan to be ousted?

It doesn't matter if you know what the chip is. The legion has no reason to trust you to blow the base rather than handle that themselves. This only exists for plot convenience and is out of character he would want you to be a liability like that without any monitoring no less.
House hires you to get the chip back for him, after losing it to Benny. The game directs you to this route, Victor asks you to see house before going to the tops. He also doesn't hire you directly for having the chip, he pays a courier service that employs you, hence Ulysses getting the first dibs on the delivery for the player character. He also spent a fortune paying randos to search for the platinum chip before he hired you, one of those people found it originally before it was in your hands.
The ncr cares about what you talked to house about and why. That makes sense. Using you as an infiltrator also makes sense. Them hiring you to do anything beyond that does not make any sense.

 

[Black Angel]

snip

Dude, stfu. It's clear you didn't play the game. If you did, you didn't even pay attention.

 

[Norzan]

It doesn't matter if you know what the chip is.

Yes, it does. What the fuck are you talking about? That is the reason Benny gives it to you.

The legion has no reason to trust you to blow the base rather than handle that themselves.

Besides the fact you are helping them and know what the chip does? Yeah, no reason for them to trust you.

He also doesn't hire you directly for having the chip, he pays a courier service that employs you, hence Ulysses getting the first dibs on the delivery for the player character.

Yes, he does, because he convinced you to join him. Him getting you to go get the chip from Benny is supposed to be just a single mission.

He also spent a fortune paying randos to search for the platinum chip before he hired you, one of those people found it originally before it was in your hands.

The scavenger team was paid that amount exactly to not say anything about the platinum chip to anyone else. The Platinum Chip's purpose is starting to leak to outside people like the Legion, do you really think he's gonna hire more people and risk it spreading to more people and jeopardize his plan? His best course of action is trying to convince you to hand it over since it involves the minimum amount of risk.

Them hiring you to do anything beyond that does not make any sense.

Yes, because you proving yourself as a competent agent and wanting to help the NCR is not reason enough for the NCR to continue to hire you. Please.

 

[FDO]

I share the part where the courrier is too 'important', the factions not even trying to replace him\her or act on their own, but I believe I already said it once or twice. Anyways, yes a game can't do a infinite numbers of scenarios, but it can do a level of reactivity and it would if it was made with other priorities than size.

Dude, stfu. It's clear you didn't play the game. If you did, you didn't even pay attention.

Come on, he isn't destroying the game and don't try to pretend that bethesda did better. The world is litteraly waiting for you to move it at every turn or almost, then doesn't react that much to it, and it's hard to forget it even on your first playthrough.

Besides the fact you are helping them? Yeah, no reason for them to trust you.

First time at the fort, you potentially can have fucked up several legion's plans, or never have done a thing to prove you are friendly to them, yet Edward will send you and nobody else in the bunker no matter what.

Yes, because you proving yourself as a competent agent and wanting to help the NCR is not reason enough for the NCR to continue to hire you. Please.

Yes, but are you the only competent person in the Mohave? It really feel that way, or that you are the only one with a save\load system who logically isn't afraid to risk their live... There is no reactivity aside from potential hostility if you aren't a faction's super messiah.

 

[Norzan]

The world is litteraly waiting for you to move it at every turn or almost, then doesn't react that much to it, and it's hard to forget it even on your first playthrough.

Again, what did you expect? Timed events are reviled by a lot of people. Even Fallout 1 got criticised for it and it's arguably the best game in the series.

First time at the fort, you potentially can have fucked up several legion's plans, or never have done a thing to prove you are friendly to them, yet Edward will send you and nobody else in the bunker no matter what.

Since your slate with them gets cleaned when you get the chip and you know what it does, i see no reason why Caesar wouldn't send you there. It's also a test to see if you are loyal or not with them. Hence why they attack you if you activate the robots.

Yes, but are you the only competent person in the Mohave? It really feel that way, or that you are the only one with a save\load system who logically isn't afraid to risk their live... There is no reactivity aside from potential hostility if you aren't a faction's super messiah.

Given the fact that you have the Platinum Chip (the single most important item in the game), that being the reason the factions want you and by the time the chip's purpose is no longer required you are pretty much sided with a faction, i really don't see the issue here. I want reactivity as much as anyone else, but what you are asking would be very convoluted and require a ton of more dev time.

 

[Lidku]

The legion has no reason to trust you to blow the base rather than handle that themselves.

What are you blathering about? Caesar sends you to the bunker because at this point he has an inkling that your competent at this point to do other tasks people can't. Even with that he sends you to the bunker because most (if not most, even to include the Frumentarii despite them being versed in sublimating them self in Post-War modern Wasteland townships or NCR settlements) have nil contact with advanced technology or experience with it. Why would Caesar waste men in a bid he know would be disastrous when he has a Wastelander (the Courier) at his disposal who he knows is adept in some form of advanced technology? By then at that point aswell again- the PC is shaping up as a promising agent who can get things done)

Anyways moving on to your response to me-

NV has a fairly mediocre plot

BWAHAHAHAHHAH..! you have to be joking! NV's plot wasn't mediocre at all, its one that has been lauded and discussed all over the globe as a cult classic- one with countless discussions of it on forums such as this, Youtube, among friends/family IRL, and beyond. Where can this be seen for Fallout 3's plot? Also "better than 3" is a huge staple metric of comparison since both are part of the modern iteration of Fallout. Embarassingly it even has better writing and story than Fallout 4 ever could've had too, even with Bethesda attempting to branch out with multi-factions like NV did. (which of course all 3 of their OC factions were horrible and they shoehorned the Brotherhood into the game as usual, even to as far as retconing their own take on the BoS by removing the Lyon dynasty and its ideology for "regular" BoS again. They can't even be confident in their own style.

NV suffers from equally stupid consistency in many places like the fact you can blow everyone to hell in lonesome road, then no one cares if you hit the hand-holding of the main quest, getting the mark and being forgiven.

Lonesome Road was DLC patterned to a game with a 17 month time constraint to make everything they did, with the stipulation that Lonesome Road was the final DLC before production stopped for good. (A DLC that may I remind you put about well after the base game was already released) You also act as if Fallout 3 isn't even more abysmally worse aswell.

As I said before, poison the purifier? Nothing happens to you at all, BoS doesn't give a shit which is completely storyline breaking. Nuke Megaton to hell? Your Dad doesn't care and nobody either. Save 101 in "Trouble on the Homefront" where you negotiate a peaceful solution against the rebels lead by Amata against her father (if you didn't kill him in the beginning)? When she takes up to the Overseer position she still banishes you despite your efforts never allowing you to enter 101 again. Either way you look at it NV has much more C&C than all of the modern iterations combined, so it can be forgiven for this.

The legion is introduced to torture and kill people they disagree with, lack honor in keeping their word in the khans quest, is run by a weak fragile man that is a living hypocrisy, and is poorly implemented to be anything other than evil.

Like I said before, the Legion doesn't respect tribal groups. The Khans were always going to be disposable puppets for Caesar to catspaw against the NCR. It was the Khan's fault for thinking they would ever be on equal footing with the Legion as "allies". The Legion as I've said before is an Authoritarian dictatorship, of course they utilize torture and neutralize people who don't toe with its iron laded ideology. These facets aren't anything to do with evil, its how all these groups are shaped by the inherent harshness of the Post-Nuclear Wasteland.

If the Legion or Edward Sallow himself were soft, they wouldn't even be able to conquer all the tribals they've assimilated into the Legion, much less construct a Pax-like state where there are no raiders and possesses bustling trade networks due to the stability. The game doesn't show this because it literally takes place at the frontier of Legion territory in a literal disputed zone against its more technological and ideologically opposed faction. So again its more unsubstantiated bias to duct-tape your flimsy arguments.

The choice in 3 is horrible because nothing actually plays out differently and I am expected to pretend something different happens because the ending says so. NV has the same issue, and the og bioshock has the same issue.

Your.. Your kidding me right? Fallout 3 only had 2 endings. Literally. 2. Endings. And they are literally things tacked according to your Karma. The evil route as I've said before is supremely retarded, good is the expected one, and neutral is a literal meh. (well that actually technically makes it 3) Fallout NV's ending? It literally had a whole plethora of things to mention regarding almost every major decision you've made between the minor factions, different quests, and the main faction you side with dynamically... and lastly, why the hell do you even mention Bioshock of all things in the first place? I know it is similar to the Fallout series in some way, but what relevance does it have in this discussion? Is it simply because your BSing your way around here?

 

[BiggumsBoi]

Dude, stfu. It's clear you didn't play the game. If you did, you didn't even pay attention.

I did, thats why I know it would make more sense for the legion to strap my ass to a cross and torture its use out of me then leave me for dead, rather then forgive my sins and then have them hand it over to me.
Or for the NCR to actually do something corrupt like the game pretends they do, lock me in a cell and threaten to dress me up and toss me over to the legion if I don't cooperate.
I guess its just too well thought out, mailman are too cool to be stopped by actual nations with armies. They are merely pawns in the one true gods world.

That is the reason Benny gives it to you.

What are you on about? If I remember correctly you need to kill Benny to get the chip from him, he won't hand it to you willingly.

Besides the fact you are helping them and know what the chip does? Yeah, no reason for them to trust you.

2 flaws here
>that might mean you would have the ability to do so, it does not give him reason to trust you to do so, especially if your play-through has had you oppose his faction up to this point source:
>he doesn't check your work, seems to have a hunch that vaults important but not THAT important
>he even states that he knows the chip would work as a key, assumes you can destroy it without providing any means to do so, doesn't put some badass like lanius there to force you into submitting in proper legion fashion
I'm sorry dude, this whole part was handled poorly. It's actually the same level of stupid Eden has in 3 just letting you go and hoping you will do what he wants lol.

His best course of action is trying to convince you to hand it over since it involves the minimum amount of risk.

His best plan is to rely on replacing Benny; the man that betrayed him, with you; the man/woman that failed to avoid Benny to get the chip back from Benny (something in any non-violent route, you fail at again) and this is less risky than say, paying a hitman to kill him and having his own machines collect the chip?
Use your head man, it should have been really simple for him to at least attempt that before you got to vegas.

proving yourself as a competent agent and wanting to help the NCR is not reason enough for the NCR to continue to hire you

for espionage yes vs house. To destroy/be diplomats toward other factions for them without any aid? Picking you instead of some of their more loyal operatives or members? Not particularly, these takes are important enough to grant at least some degree of support/oversight from more proven loyal members. NV has its major factions way to trusting, way too fast in its main questline.

 

[BiggumsBoi]

Even with that he sends you to the bunker because most (if not most, even to include the Frumentarii despite them being versed in sublimating them self in Post-War modern Wasteland townships or NCR settlements) have nil contact with advanced technology or experience with it.

because he just wants it destroyed
I can't built you a microwave, but I can break it really easily
and if I remember correctly you just break some generators in the bunker, something that requires 0 skills in anything tech related
hell, you can rationalize this however you like dude, it's silly and unrealistic

As I said before, poison the purifier? Nothing happens to you at all, BoS doesn't give a shit which is completely storyline breaking.

It is, I'm not here defending 3's plot lol, its utter shit and the choices suck. Better than 3 isn't a high bar or a defense
FFs you quoted me saying that myself and are trying to use it like I even tried to make that point

It literally had a whole plethora of things to mention regarding almost every major decision you've made between the minor factions, different quests, and the main faction you side with dynamically

Ending slides are nice, having the world in game reflect these changes to some extent is better. The problem with it just being an ending slide that changes makes it the same as something like bioshock, the choices had minor impacts on the gameplay and the gameworld at best and most of the impact is left to be some scripted cutscene.
One of the saddest design decisions imo in the series was fo1 not implementing the mutant invasions in all the towns over time. That kinda organic living world design beats out a slideshow any day, so I'm sad they cut that due to fear of it upsetting/frustrating players