R.Graves
Confirmed Retard
That's why I'm debating because I feel most of that is outright wrong. Like I said I hope i outgrow this mentality. It's I'll befitting to me imo.
Why Fo4 fucked Fallout lore
- Thread starter 0wing
- Start date
That's why I'm debating because I feel most of that is outright wrong. Like I said I hope i outgrow this mentality. It's I'll befitting to me imo.
So your entire retort is "Wrong"?
You wrote an entire paragraph without actually saying anything, and put words in my mouth without actually saying anything.
I did not write perfect adaptability. I specifically noted that robots in the classics (which have been since retconned, making the whole "THIS IS NOT HOW IT WAS" line of argument baseless) were adaptable on par with human brains. Real-time problem solving, pathfinding, independent of a human operator. You can tamper with robots and modify their base parameters, but none of that implies that they are any less intelligent.
Synths, after all, can be tampered with and reprogrammed as well.
The robots at Mariposa? The Cathedral? Tell me, what are your criteria for artificial intelligences? That they speak pretty? Because the robot manager at Mariposa speaks pretty as well, but it's all a personality layover.
DirtyOldShoe
Some kind of lucky
Codsworth Hates that.
R.Graves
Confirmed Retard
@DirtyOldShoe that's mostly just a poorly implemented game mechanic imo. Let's talk lore pls. Codsworth has a lot of voice inflections and such that I feel make him too... human.
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Different iterations of the same software account for that. We don't have the same OS in our computers as we did ten or twenty years ago, do we?
R.Graves
Confirmed Retard
while valid when comparing mclellan mister handy to robot manager it is invalid when comparing mclellan mister handy to codsworth.
Different models. An iPhone's an iPhone, too, but there are six generations under the brand.
R.Graves
Confirmed Retard
Does the game state that they are different models or are you simply handwaving?
Jogre
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Cities turning hostile is precisely what made Fallout games fun for me in the first place. If you piss people off, they get pissed off. Yes the Hancock excuse is OK, but what about Strong for example, no way a city would just let a Supermutant walk in.
Fallout games used to focus on World-Building over Player Convinience, and used to make it so if you made a bad decision it stuck. You can't just have a Fallout game where a city goes along with anything you say or do without turning hostile, that is just completely unfun.
Whose to say that the Families of New Reno aren't actually descended from Gangsters?, And the whole town isn't made up of them, there are plenty of drug dealers, whores, priests, and lower down folks.
And I don't see what's inconsistent about a city with an economy based on tourism and drug dealing. Drug dealing is a handy source of income, and whoes to say we don't see the tourist industry?, What if all the gamblers in the casinos, and the bar patrons are tourists.
And have you ever heard of Las Vegas, or Benidorm, or pretty much any Tourist-run city?, There are plenty of places in real life in which tourism is a major source of industry, don't see why that's contradictory.
Don't see how that's inconsistent or ridiculous. Yeah it's a little racist, but that doesn't mean it's inconsistent.
And there are no Scientologists in San Fran, just Hubologists, which while obviously based on Scientologists, are for lore purposes a completely different religion. And I don't see what your problem with that is, what's so bad about a cult that brainwashes and kidnaps children?, it happens in the real world, why not in the Fallout world?
How?, I thought the Enclave was a well thought out idea. And the Vault Experiments doesn't seem like a dumb plot point, you could really see how it worked. If you're going to say something is a dumb plot point, please have the courtesy to explain why.
Yes, Coffin Willie was a stupid idea, and quite frankly shouldn't have been implemented in the game, but it doesn't in itself contradict plot points of former games.
A whole plot point of Fallout 1 was Necropolis nearly dying of dehydration. That was a character defining moment, as it showed whether your character would look past superficial differences and help a town of mutants, it showed whether your character is willing to go out of there way to help others, ect., if Ghouls no longer need to eat or drink, that whole part of Fallout 1 is majorly retconned.
Coffin Willie and Billy were both stupid, but Coffin Willie isn't actively contradictory with Fallout lore.
And he wasn't traped in there for 200+ years after all.
I can't say that NMA has really declined THAT much. I miss people like Welsh, BN and the others I knew as much like everyone else. But you lose some, you gain some. It has always been like that. You want NMA to be better? Stay around and post :p
What I know as well, is the fact that people can speak their mind here. And that's what I like about NMA.
However, there can be no doubt, that as far as Fallout goes, F4 is the weakest entry so far, if we go with the core elements of Fallout, the PNP roots, the role playing and gameplay mechanics with skills, skill checks etc. - PoS notwithstanding, but PoS is really no standard that should be used anywhere.
I think you're a bit to harsh here. This topic, is really not exemplary of all the discussions that happen here. Maybe you have been inactive for to long? You know, Gizmo and a few others are still posting here occasionally, and making fine points from time to time. And we had some great discussions, and there have been even people (me included), complimenting Bethesda for the things they did right.
I can't say that NMA has really declined THAT much. I miss people like Welsh, BN and the others I knew as much like everyone else. But you lose some, you gain some. It has always been like that. You want NMA to be better? Stay around and post :p
What I know as well, is the fact that people can speak their mind here. And that's what I like about NMA.
However, there can be no doubt, that as far as Fallout goes, F4 is the weakest entry so far, if we go with the core elements of Fallout, the PNP roots, the role playing and gameplay mechanics with skills, skill checks etc. - PoS notwithstanding, but PoS is really no standard that should be used anywhere.
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0wing
Все умрут, а я волномут
Coffin Willie survived the war and was trapped for 210 years? I... Didn't knew that... And that of course reverses everything by 180 degrees. /s
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Coffin Willie is Lenny's father, found the New Reno graveyard, Golgotha in 2241.
(...)
Willie was a particularly bad smelling ghoul who was visiting the city of New Reno for drinks and girls, but unfortunately, the citizens of New Reno did not tolerate ghouls. Willie was taken to Golgotha and buried alive, with a headstone calling him "the dumbest son of a bitch ever to set foot in New Reno."
http://fallout.gamepedia.com/Coffin_Willie
*shrugs* A stupid and silly part of the game so much for sure. But easily forgettable. I mean it wasn't even really much of a quest. More like a joke.
(...)
Willie was a particularly bad smelling ghoul who was visiting the city of New Reno for drinks and girls, but unfortunately, the citizens of New Reno did not tolerate ghouls. Willie was taken to Golgotha and buried alive, with a headstone calling him "the dumbest son of a bitch ever to set foot in New Reno."
http://fallout.gamepedia.com/Coffin_Willie
*shrugs* A stupid and silly part of the game so much for sure. But easily forgettable. I mean it wasn't even really much of a quest. More like a joke.
0wing
Все умрут, а я волномут
Depends. You can forget about Kid in a Fridge too. And many other things. We should not forget anything like Bethesda fans.
Do you want every bit of lore spoon-fed to you or can you connect the dots?
I assume you also enjoy hammering nails into your penis, which is what turning cities hostile was equivalent to. An entire map of sixty or so NPCs, all taking their turn and sweet time to move. If you can stomach it, good for you, but there's a reason most just reloaded.
You should read the plethora of threads in ancient NMA history bashing New Reno at length first. The whole city is based on crime and a non-existent pleasure economy. The cities you quote work because they exist in a working economy. In what economy does New Reno exist? Subsistence farmers and tribes around it? It wouldn't be out of place down in the NCR, but as an independent power in the wasteland in 2241? Where are their tourists coming from? Where's the police force keeping them safe and enforcing the law?
That's why New Vegas makes plenty of sense and New Reno doesn't make a lick of it. New Vegas is a safe city attracting people with the promise of safety and wealth. New Reno, with its "trashcan fires bathing the city in a hellish glow", dysfunctional anarchy, and mobsters running the town? Not a chance in hell.
The next responses are just pathetic.
You do realize that Fallout 3 fans made the exact same excuses when confronted about the flaws of Fallout 3, right? You're doing the exact same thing.
Because of what? Because you say so? Because ohgoditsHOLYFALLOUT2? Fallout 2 was a great game, but it was also extremely shaky and inconsistent. If you can't realize that fact, there's no more discussion to be had.
Yes. Yes, it did. I think it was the moment when we failed to adopt a "ban GamerGate on sight with extreme prejudice" policy that the shit started backing up.
Might just do that. Might even revive the ancient tradition of the Iron Fisted Santa Week.
If you could stop passing your opinion off as fact, that'd be great. F4 isn't the weakest entry, it's several orders of magnitude better than Fallout 3 in terms of story, writing, characters, and quest structure (which is something Bethesda generally does well, remember Blood Ties? Dumb story, excellent structure), actual choices (unless you're PlayerFaction, you can't avoid destroying two of four factions, which rectifies the mistakes of FNV).
Gameplay is different, but it's not worse. Fallout transitioned to FPS permanently and doesn't make any compromises. It's now an RPG more in the vein of the Witcher series, rather than the classics. It's a problem, yeah, mostly because there's no skills or other way to define your character's development, but it's not worse. Simply different.
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Yeah, but Kid in a fridge is one of the few situations in F4, where a quest has actually different outcomes and ways to approach it. See, if Fallout 4 would be full of situations where the player has choices, chances for role playing, and meaningfull dialog etc. this whole thing would still be ridiculous, but you could easily forget about it, just like Pete said - ironic isn't it? But that way, the Immortal Ghoul in a fridge, sticks out like a sore thumb, reminding you constantly what you lost with going from F1 to F4.
You either decide to be a part of this community or you don't *shrugs*
As far as I know, there is no rule that says you can't be pro gamergate. This whole debate was so full of vitriol, it's not funny anymore. We both share a very similar opinion on that matter. However, I am not so moraly on a high ground that I tell people who should or should not be banned.
The fact alone that Fallout 3 actually contains some skill checks, is more than Fallout 4 offers. Or the fact that you can actually role play, to some extend. Even if it's no clue, just playing captain obvious most of the time ... in Fallout 4 you role play only really one kind of character in the end and the game is guiding you on rails in almost every instant. Even Totall Biscuit, says that much. No one here will argue that Fallout 4 does contain some form of dialog or narrative. But it's really the bare minimum. Using the principles of Fallout 1 as basis, than Fallout 3, might be even closer to it than Fallout 4. But that's really hair splitting. The closest thing we ever got to a Fallout game, was New Vegas so far even with all it's flaws. Almost any companion of New Vegas blows the one you find in Fallout 4 out of the water. And the only hope that there is right now, might be that Bethesda gives Obsidian another chance to make a true Fallout game. Wana have sex with Piper?
Is that the kind of charactes and character archs we are talking about? I will take Arcade Ganon or Raul over this any day.
However, both games, Fallout 3 and Fallout 4 are shitty Fallout games in my opinion. And we are arguing here which one of those is less shitty. I feel that is really silly.
I won't argue about Bethesdas ability to write a story, characters and quests in detail though. I personaly feel, they are garbage when it comes to that. They could not make real RPGs if it hit them with a hammer, if you ask me. What ever if that is because they lack the skill, or they are driven by their egos, I don't know it, and frankly at this point I don't care.
But I played Oblivion, Skyrim, Fallout 3 and Morrowind. And I noticed that their ability to write cohesive plots, character progression, interesting NPCs and well, actually delivering on a role playing game, has droped a lot, where as they now deliver action oriented shooters, occasionally offering it with swords and staffs shooting fireballs and rocket lunchers. Bethesda games, are the type of games where you have to consciously IGNORE their story, to actually enjoy the game, as the focus of everything is on wandering around and clubing/shooting stuff till it dies. The Witcher 3, as far as I can tell, shows us that you can have both, great exploration and awesome role playing.
The fact how often you hear, Bethesda games are only really great with mods!, speaks volume ... never seen people saying that about the Witcher games for example.
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Jogre
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
That's not the point. The point is, it made you act in cautious ways. In Fallout 3 and 4 if you dislike someone, you can just stab them to death, or steal all their stuff, because you'll be forgiven 3 days later anyway, whereas in previous Fallout games, if you wanted to stay on a towns good side, you had to tolerate those members of the community you didn't like, meaning that you have more motive to actually act like a real human being, and are genuinely more cautious about murder/stealing like you should be.
Besides, some of the main design principles of Fallout 1 and 2 were World Building over Player Convinience(Makes more sense for a community to outlaw a murderer), and Consequences for Actions(If you made a bad decision, you made a bad decision, no other chances)
Fallout 3s plot points are actively contradictory and ridiculous. You however, have yet to point out why San Fransisco, Hubologists, Vault Experiments or The Enclave are somehow inconsistent. I'm not making excuses, I'm just pointing out that you have presented no reasons to think that there is anything contradictory about any of these things
I read something that sums that up on 4chan quite well, unfortunately the threads been deleted, but this is what I got from memory.
>They made a neutral area for betting, that is not neutral, attacks on site, and doesn't allow betting
>They made a Raider gang that recruits from the outside, which is hostile and does not recruit from the outside
>They made a group of Mercenaries, who cannot be hired, and attack you on sight
Why introduce plot points about a faction, if you can't make the faction live up to it?, You could argue that they add to the lore, but if a faction is both neutral and recruits, and is hostile and doesn't, that just comes across as inconsistent. If you want to make a faction have contact with the outside world, make them do so.
If they wanted The East City Downs to be a generic shoot-em-up dungeon, why didn't they add a terminal saying that it wasn't a betting arena, and the Raiders just used the robot racing for fun?, If the Forged don't recruit from the outside, why not just say that Jake was kidnapped, and say that they get all recruits from annexed Raider gangs, rather than having all these terminals saying that they recruit from the outside?, If the Gunners are generic Raiders, why not just have lots of terminals describing there history as a Raider gang, rather than being Mercenaries?, These factions could have had just as much history and lore behind them if they were described as they are in-game.
Having these factions be 100% hostile raiders wouldn't take away from lore, but would take away from major inconsistencies.
There are plenty of functioning settlements all around. It's fairly close to Modoc, Vault City, Broken Hills, NCR ect. They could make up the economy, and be the tourists. My guess is they probably visit there for the Prostitutes and Gambling, which in most towns is restricted, and those towns in which it isn't restricted tend to either be too far away(Klamath), Or too lawless and violent(Den being a literal anarchy), or not renowned for it(Redding just being thought of as a generic gold-mining town)
As for Police Force keeping the law: Probably the Mobsters. Obviously they wouldn't deal with stuff like thefts, but they'd probably want to make sure that visitors are safe from attack, and able to use their casinos/bars/ect.,
Did you even read that section you quoted, or did you make an assumption on why I was defending Coffin Willie over Billy?, I provided a clear reason why Billy is more inconsistent than Coffin Willie, and that's because Coffin Willie while stupid, doesn't contradict Fallout 1's plot point(Necropolis dying of dehydration). You seem to have just come up with a generic response, dismissing me as one of those "FALLOUT2ISGOD" types, without actually taking in to account the reason I provided.
When I buy a Fallout game, I expect it to be a Roleplaying Game. The fact that I got a game with next to no Roleplaying made me feel like I was majorly cheated. I buy these games because they were one of the very few series that I could actually Roleplay in a universe that I loved, it was a series where you could genuinely role-play a post apocalypse. I don't care how great it is as a First Person Shooter now, If I can't Roleplay in it, I don't give two shits about it. Bethesda own the Fallout IP, meaning they are very influential in the direction of the series, if they take away all the aspects that made these games great, there's a problem. Bethesda may make it so there is never another Roleplayable Fallout game again, which as far as I'm concerned, would basically be the end of the series.
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TransgenderVaultDeweller
"Fallout 4 adds to the lore"
How the fuck does Gamer Game even have an ounce of impact on the membership on this site or the present argument at hand. Derailed enough much? Just curious since any community you go to you will have anyone with a different belief system, that is a guarantee. No matter if its full blown stupidity conservative or cancerous regressive left ideas. People prescribe to such ideologies but that doesn't mean it effects or changes what this or any other website about fallout is about. You guessed it fallout. People mostly talk about fallout releated things, Sure you have general discussions about other real life things, But no matter what the premise of this doesn't change.
I don't understand how you come into this thread attacking and bringing into question our membership worth, When its been pretty nice and neat group of generally the same old people that you already are aware of. (Walpknut,Dr.Fallout. Dr.Fish, RangerBoo etc.) We make our opinions and judgements based on sound reasoning and logic
Earth
Vault Senior Citizen
whirlingdervish
Brahmin Cavalry Commander
So wait.. San Fran is racist somehow?
It contains a bunch of Asian people in stereotypical roles, yes, but there's a reason for that:
http://www.sanfranciscochinatown.com/
New Vegas contains a bunch of people acting like stereotypical denizens of the town's past. So did New Reno. So did Bakersfield for it's part. (just replace crazed tweakers with crazed ghouls
)
Los Angeles probably would to, if it wasn't a diverse melting pot without a single stereotypical type of resident or stylistic architectural approach. (and had it not been hit with nukes)
It contains a bunch of Asian people in stereotypical roles, yes, but there's a reason for that:
http://www.sanfranciscochinatown.com/
New Vegas contains a bunch of people acting like stereotypical denizens of the town's past. So did New Reno. So did Bakersfield for it's part. (just replace crazed tweakers with crazed ghouls
)Los Angeles probably would to, if it wasn't a diverse melting pot without a single stereotypical type of resident or stylistic architectural approach. (and had it not been hit with nukes)