Why Fo4 fucked Fallout lore

[Jogre]

So wait.. San Fran is racist somehow?

It contains a bunch of Asian people in stereotypical roles, yes, but there's a reason for that:

Showing San Fransisco as being run by a group of asians wouldn't be racist, I think he's probably referring to lines such as "Look at the funny outsider and his silly round eyes". IDK, I always thought that if Fallout 2 was made today it wouldn't really be able to get away with that. It was quite a funny turn on stereotypes, but if the game weren't so old, it would probably be controversial.

 

[0wing]

It was quite a funny turn on stereotypes, but if the game weren't so old, it would probably be controversial.

Or edgy. Either way, commercial failure.

 

[Dr Fallout]

So your entire retort is "Wrong"?

Yes because it's wrong... what else do I say? It's the opposite of right?

You wrote an entire paragraph without actually saying anything, and put words in my mouth without actually saying anything.

I did not write perfect adaptability. I specifically noted that robots in the classics (which have been since retconned, making the whole "THIS IS NOT HOW IT WAS" line of argument baseless) were adaptable on par with human brains. Real-time problem solving, pathfinding, independent of a human operator. You can tamper with robots and modify their base parameters, but none of that implies that they are any less intelligent.

Synths, after all, can be tampered with and reprogrammed as well.

So your argument is... it's been retconned so shut the fuck up (a very crude description from me by the way). Remember that I stated that robots were not intelligent or sentient in the original games, I'm not discussing how the robots in Fallout 4 aren't intelligent or sentient. That much is obvious. Basically, from looking at the beginning of the franchise, robots did not have sentience or intelligence. Can we agree to that?

The robots at Mariposa? The Cathedral? Tell me, what are your criteria for artificial intelligences? That they speak pretty? Because the robot manager at Mariposa speaks pretty as well, but it's all a personality layover.

The Mariposa robot spoke like a fucking robot. All it did was describe itself and what it was. It showed no real personality and intelligence. In fact, the responses seemed very pre-made... you know, like Evebot. The Cathedral? What robot do you have in mind? No, in fact the Mariposa robot doesn't speak very well.

 

[Crni Vuk]

I also don't think, simply the fact that Fallout 2s explanation for Jet might have been shitty, would be enoug to qualify the explanation that it might be a pre-war drug. It's simply a try to retroactively explain it's appearance in Fallout 4. Even worse, Jet doesn't have any serious side effects in Fallout 4, like most of the substances you can take.

 

[Izak]

So Tagaziel you seem to think that the writing in Fallout 4 is quite good, can you tell us your favourite parts? I'm genuinely curious to see what you think makes it a good addition (or at least a better addition than Fallout 3) to the series.

 

[Tagaziel]

That's not the point. The point is, it made you act in cautious ways. In Fallout 3 and 4 if you dislike someone, you can just stab them to death, or steal all their stuff, because you'll be forgiven 3 days later anyway, whereas in previous Fallout games, if you wanted to stay on a towns good side, you had to tolerate those members of the community you didn't like, meaning that you have more motive to actually act like a real human being, and are genuinely more cautious about murder/stealing like you should be.

Just because a mechanic is there doesn't mean you need to use it. If you want to cheat and game the system, there's plenty of ways to do so in Fallout and Fallout 2 as well, especially with superstims.

Really, your claims that Fallout 2 was an ideal game are ridiculous.

Besides, some of the main design principles of Fallout 1 and 2 were World Building over Player Convinience(Makes more sense for a community to outlaw a murderer), and Consequences for Actions(If you made a bad decision, you made a bad decision, no other chances)

[citation needed]

Especially for the claim that Bethesda doesn't prioritize world building over player convenience.

Fallout 3s plot points are actively contradictory and ridiculous. You however, have yet to point out why San Fransisco, Hubologists, Vault Experiments or The Enclave are somehow inconsistent. I'm not making excuses, I'm just pointing out that you have presented no reasons to think that there is anything contradictory about any of these things

If you can't see how a city that rips off Big Trouble in Little China, mocks scientology, plays up racial stereotypes, or an entire faction being the bastard stepchild of Neo-Nazis and Republicans, you are either playing dumb or making excuses. This is something that has been criticized on NMA and in the fandom for a long time.

I read something that sums that up on 4chan quite well, unfortunately the threads been deleted, but this is what I got from memory.

>They made a neutral area for betting, that is not neutral, attacks on site, and doesn't allow betting

>They made a Raider gang that recruits from the outside, which is hostile and does not recruit from the outside

>They made a group of Mercenaries, who cannot be hired, and attack you on sight

It's called a budget. And nitpicking. Do you bitch and moan that you can't join up with press gangs in Fallout 2? Or that Jackals and Vipers in Fallout: New Vegas are permanently hostile?

Why introduce plot points about a faction, if you can't make the faction live up to it?, You could argue that they add to the lore, but if a faction is both neutral and recruits, and is hostile and doesn't, that just comes across as inconsistent. If you want to make a faction have contact with the outside world, make them do so.

It adds to the lore. This is the second time I've seen someone claim that the game should be dumbed down, because factions named for variety aren't fleshed out enough for their taste.

If they wanted The East City Downs to be a generic shoot-em-up dungeon, why didn't they add a terminal saying that it wasn't a betting arena, and the Raiders just used the robot racing for fun?, If the Forged don't recruit from the outside, why not just say that Jake was kidnapped, and say that they get all recruits from annexed Raider gangs, rather than having all these terminals saying that they recruit from the outside?, If the Gunners are generic Raiders, why not just have lots of terminals describing there history as a Raider gang, rather than being Mercenaries?, These factions could have had just as much history and lore behind them if they were described as they are in-game.

Because it adds to the world? If it was written as you say, you would be bitching and moaning that the FACTIONS AREN'T EXPLAINED BECAUSE WHERE DO THEY GET RECRUITS AND SUSTAIN THEMSELVES.

Having these factions be 100% hostile raiders wouldn't take away from lore, but would take away from major inconsistencies.

It doesn't create major inconsistencies. So what if EC Downs, Forged, and Gunners are hostile? Are you really claiming that the game should be dumbed down?

There are plenty of functioning settlements all around. It's fairly close to Modoc, Vault City, Broken Hills, NCR ect. They could make up the economy, and be the tourists. My guess is they probably visit there for the Prostitutes and Gambling, which in most towns is restricted, and those towns in which it isn't restricted tend to either be too far away(Klamath), Or too lawless and violent(Den being a literal anarchy), or not renowned for it(Redding just being thought of as a generic gold-mining town)

You're joking, right? It's two hundred miles from One Pine to New Reno (the estimated northern frontier of the NCR). Four hundred from Barstow (Hub). Four fifty from the northern edges of the Boneyard. Yes, the NCR's a thriving source of commerce, along with all those throngs of citizens venturing out from the inner city to New Reno!

There is no source of commerce within reasonable distance. Broken Hills and Redding? Are you joking? The miners and caravaneers living there are not enough to provide a stable supply of income to the giant casinos.

As for Police Force keeping the law: Probably the Mobsters. Obviously they wouldn't deal with stuff like thefts, but they'd probably want to make sure that visitors are safe from attack, and able to use their casinos/bars/ect.,

Oh, great. You're claiming that people from the lawful NCR will come to the anarchic New Reno, to gamble and whore, except there's not even a modicum of a police force present to make sure they are safe from theft. Jesus fucking Christ. "Obviously they wouldn't deal with stuff like thefts"? What kind of an idiotic argument is this? Why would people even consider coming to a place where they can get robbed and the best the city's "authorities" will do is shrug?

Did you even read that section you quoted, or did you make an assumption on why I was defending Coffin Willie over Billy?, I provided a clear reason why Billy is more inconsistent than Coffin Willie, and that's because Coffin Willie while stupid, doesn't contradict Fallout 1's plot point(Necropolis dying of dehydration). You seem to have just come up with a generic response, dismissing me as one of those "FALLOUT2ISGOD" types, without actually taking in to account the reason I provided.

You're making excuses because FALLOUT2ISGOOD. Your entire post contains nothing but excuses for shitty writing and shoddy design.

When I buy a Fallout game, I expect it to be a Roleplaying Game. The fact that I got a game with next to no Roleplaying made me feel like I was majorly cheated. I buy these games because they were one of the very few series that I could actually Roleplay in a universe that I loved, it was a series where you could genuinely role-play a post apocalypse. I don't care how great it is as a First Person Shooter now, If I can't Roleplay in it, I don't give two shits about it. Bethesda own the Fallout IP, meaning they are very influential in the direction of the series, if they take away all the aspects that made these games great, there's a problem. Bethesda may make it so there is never another Roleplayable Fallout game again, which as far as I'm concerned, would basically be the end of the series.

Too bad nearly the entire gaming community disagrees. And the income figures.

How the fuck does Gamer Game even have an ounce of impact on the membership on this site or the present argument at hand.

Because supporters of GamerGate are idiots. And idiots lower the general quality level of the entire forum.

We make our opinions and judgements based on sound reasoning and logic

Any person who has to proclaim that they make opinions and judgements based on sound reasoning and logic, doesn't.

So your argument is... it's been retconned so shut the fuck up (a very crude description from me by the way).

Basically. Fallout 2 retconned a good amount of stuff (dumb plot elements like the Enclave or the Vault experiments forced into the game), but I don't see you moaning about it.

Remember that I stated that robots were not intelligent or sentient in the original games, I'm not discussing how the robots in Fallout 4 aren't intelligent or sentient. That much is obvious. Basically, from looking at the beginning of the franchise, robots did not have sentience or intelligence. Can we agree to that?

No, we cannot, because they had intelligence. Resolving problems is a sign of intelligence. All robots have very advanced problem solving skills.

The Mariposa robot spoke like a fucking robot. All it did was describe itself and what it was. It showed no real personality and intelligence. In fact, the responses seemed very pre-made... you know, like Evebot. The Cathedral? What robot do you have in mind? No, in fact the Mariposa robot doesn't speak very well.

Oh, so if it doesn't speak pretty, it isn't intelligent or sentient. I assume that means you believe that SkyNET at the Sierra Army Depot isn't intelligent or sentient?

 

[Tagaziel]

So Tagaziel you seem to think that the writing in Fallout 4 is quite good, so can you tell us your favourite parts? I'm genuinely curious to see what you think makes it a good addition (or at least a better addition than Fallout 3) to the series.

The principal reason is that it features a new take on the Brotherhood. Whereas it's moribund in the West, it is reborn in the East, under a new Maxson (mythic, really, the first was the Founder, then there were High Elders, until finally a new Maxson comes forth as the Restorer). It has a sound strategy and tactical approach, an ideology that's understandable and a return to the roots of the original Brotherhood (Talus, Vree, Rhombus, all wouldn't feel out of place among Maxson's peers), and effectively addresses every single issue Lyons' Brotherhood had. More than that, it kills Lyonses off and lampshades their incompetence.

I love Arthur as a character, his charisma and approach to others. He's young, talented, headstrong, but not particularly arrogant. I particularly like how you can ask him questions that do come in mind, such as whether you're his only intelligence asset on the Institute (nope, the Brotherhood also has robust intel gathering operations, ranging from reconaissance to signals intelligence). That said, I really love how the major characters of the drama are set up: Haylen, Danse, and Maxson. I think the scene from Blind Betrayal where Maxson does the deed for you is one of the best and most dramatic scenes Bethesda ever wrote. Of course, you're not going to appreciate it if you're going into the game with the intention to bash it.

The characters are really well written. While the affinity system can be gamed (as with everything), it's a neat, natural system of building up rapport and makes for a nice change of pace. I once conversed with Danse in an old, derelict church, about the order he gave, to euthanize Knight... Warwick, I think. To Haylen. And his relationship with her. Nick Valentine is just downright awesome, Piper's inquisitive, Deacon's a lovely, snide ass...

But Danse's arc really stands out. It's Obsidian level structure and story, building up a character, then crushing them with a revelation that would make lesser people go mad.

I absolutely love the power armor system. The T-60 doesn't bother me, because it's just an upgrade, an update of the T-45. It's the Tiger to the T-51's Panther (and the T-45's Panzer IV). I love a lot of the lore additions as well and the subtle stories that play in the background, like Mass Fusion being deliberate liars (anyone bitching about how it violates lore doesn't seem to understand the point that Karl Oslow was lying about selling fusion power, and all Mass Fusion tech was actually fission).

And the world design is far, far above Fallout 3. Pretty much every settlement has an identifiable source of food and water, if not on location, then within a reasonable distance (Slog and Goodneighbor are a logical connection), downtown Boston feels like a ruined city...

I could really write for a long time, but Fallout 4, to me, is Bethesda in top form, the old form from Morrowind times.

 

[Jogre]

Just because a mechanic is there doesn't mean you need to use it. If you want to cheat and game the system, there's plenty of ways to do so in Fallout and Fallout 2 as well, especially with superstims.

Really, your claims that Fallout 2 was an ideal game are ridiculous.

Yes you could cheat the mechanic, in the same way that you can walk through locked doors while holding a plate in Skyrim. Does that mean future Elder Scrolls games should make it so that there are no locked doors in the game?, No because that would be stupid. Just because there is a way to cheat the mechanic, doesn't mean that the mechanic should be removed entirely.

And I'm not arguing Fallout 2 was an ideal game. in lots of aspects New Vegas did a lot better than it, however it's a good, well-thought out(Excluding the Coffin Willie part) game, and far more lore-friendly than you are making it out to be.

[citation needed]

Especially for the claim that Bethesda doesn't prioritize world building over player convenience.

So the fact that you can shoot up a town and be forgiven 3 days later isn't evidence enough?

How about the fact that you can become leader of a faction after a day?

Or the fact that you can just force lots of people in to an arena for your entertainment, and they don't even look twice?

How about the fact that pretty much every settlement is just a blank slate for the player to work on later in-game?

If you can't see how a city that rips off Big Trouble in Little China, mocks scientology, plays up racial stereotypes, or an entire faction being the bastard stepchild of Neo-Nazis and Republicans, you are either playing dumb or making excuses. This is something that has been criticized on NMA and in the fandom for a long time.

Ok San Fransisco was a little silly, i'll give you that one, but that was only one part of the plot, and it wasn't actively unrealistic like parts of the plot in 3 and 4.

As for the Enclave, I disagree with you there. I thought the premise of a genocidal regime trying to wipe out mutants from the wastelands was quite an interseting one. And while, yes they are obviously based on a cross between Nazis and Republicans, but in the same way that The Railroad was based off of the Underground Railroad, or how NCR in New Vegas is basically a shoddy cross between WW2 and 1800s America, or the Fallout 4 Brotherhood of Steel being based strongly after the tales of King Arthur(With the Prydwen for example).

A faction being based off of something familiar isn't inherently bad, if they aren't total copies of it. The Enclave had a lot of interesting technologies, were mysterious and often seen interfering with the events of the wasteland. Yes they were "The Bastard Stepchild of Neo-Nazis and Republicans", but that doesn't mean that they are any less of a good faction

Do you bitch and moan that you can't join up with press gangs in Fallout 2? Or that Jackals and Vipers in Fallout: New Vegas are permanently hostile?

Was I explicitly told that the Press Gangs in Fallout 2 recruit from the outside?

Did the Jackals and Vipers run a betting ring that was supposed to be a place where other Raider gangs can cool off and gamble?

The thing that matters isn't that you can't join them, the thing that matters is that you are told repeatedly that they recruit from the outside, and that they are neutral betting rings, and yet for some reason, neither is true.

It adds to the lore. This is the second time I've seen someone claim that the game should be dumbed down, because factions named for variety aren't fleshed out enough for their taste.

I wasn't suggesting that they dumb down the factions, I was suggesting they rewrite them in a way that is consistent.

Let's take the Viper's for instance: If you read the Fallout Bible, you'll find lot's of lore about them. They gain there recruits from kidnapping, they perform rituals regarding snakes, it's suggested that they don't do ransoms like the Khans, because they are more obsessed with sacrificing to their snake God than they are with loot.

These Raiders are completely hostile, they aren't presented as running betting rings, or for actively recruiting people who come and attempt to join them, instead they kidnap and force future members of their tribes

It is possible to have a well-written faction, that doesn't nescessarily have to be neutral. Why didn't they come up with similar backstories for The Forged(Would fit quite well considering there form of worship for the Forge), Or for the Gunners.

I'm not suggesting they dumb-down these factions, I'm suggesting that they write them the way there are presented. Writing a faction of completely hostile raiders doesn't automatically = dumbing down. They could have easily made these factions consistent with themselves without making them dumber.

You're joking, right? It's two hundred miles from One Pine to New Reno (the estimated northern frontier of the NCR). Four hundred from Barstow (Hub). Four fifty from the northern edges of the Boneyard. Yes, the NCR's a thriving source of commerce, along with all those throngs of citizens venturing out from the inner city to New Reno!

There is no source of commerce within reasonable distance. Broken Hills and Redding? Are you joking? The miners and caravaneers living there are not enough to provide a stable supply of income to the giant casinos.

Those were two examples. Perhaps the source of income comes from a combination of all of the towns in the Big Circle combined


Yeah, two mining towns wouldn't be enough to provide income, but how about Two Mining Towns, One of the wealthiest cities around, and a Farming Town. Not to mention that it's already been stated that a few of the gangsters living in The Den often make trips to New Reno to refill their supplies of Jet, plus it is suggested that there are also quite a few independent tribes and villages living around the wasteland that we haven't seen.

And I know the NCR is quite far away, but don't forget, hundreds of people travel by plane to visit Las Vegas. That must be a long and stressful journey, and I'm sure many towns have there own casinos anyway, however it's a city that allows high-stake gambling, so people go through great lengths to get to it regardless.

Oh, great. You're claiming that people from the lawful NCR will come to the anarchic New Reno, to gamble and whore, except there's not even a modicum of a police force present to make sure they are safe from theft. Jesus fucking Christ. "Obviously they wouldn't deal with stuff like thefts"? What kind of an idiotic argument is this? Why would people even consider coming to a place where they can get robbed and the best the city's "authorities" will do is shrug?

Tourism?, So they can do activities which are considered illegal in other parts of the world?

It's kind of in the same way that tourists might visit countries where there are bandits actively roaming the roads, or countries with corrupt police forces, or in the same way people might visit Vegas despite its streets being incredibly crime-polluted. The same reason that a couple hundred years ago rich land-owners traveled hundreds of miles to see landmarks all across Europe. Even in the real world, people put themselves in very risky situations for the sense of adventure, and visiting a new place.

You're making excuses because FALLOUT2ISGOOD. Your entire post contains nothing but excuses for shitty writing and shoddy design.

I never once tried to make excuses for Coffin Willie. I tried to for San Fran and New Reno, but I fully accepted from the beggining that Coffin Willie was a stupid idea.

That doesn't however, change the fact that Billy is actually inconsistent with the lore from a previous game, and Coffin Willie is not.

Too bad nearly the entire gaming community disagrees. And the income figures.

Too bad the entire gaming community is made up of the type of idiots who call themselves "Fallout fans" despite never playing the originals.

Too bad the entire gaming community is made up of people who wont play older games because they are under the delusion that new = better.

Too bad the entire gaming community doesn't want to think while they play games, and just want to shoot shit and build cool houses.

And the entire gaming community doesn't disagree with me. Fallout 4 got a 5.3 on Metacritic, the lowest that any Fallout game discluding BOS got, a 80% steam satisfaction rate: The lowest any Fallout game has ever got. Yes most people disagree, but there is more hate for Fallout 4 then there is for pretty much any other Fallout game ever made.

As for the Income Figures. A franchise with one of the most fanatic fanbases ever releases a new game, and has one of the biggest marketing campaigns in video game history. No shit the sales are good. How much money a game makes doesn't represent how many people like the game, it represents how many people thought they would be interested in buying it, which can be, in some circumstances, a very different thing.

And don't forget that figure includes people like me, who were scammed by Bethesda in to thinking they were getting a Roleplaying game.

Basically. Fallout 2 retconned a good amount of stuff (dumb plot elements like the Enclave or the Vault experiments forced into the game), but I don't see you moaning about it.

Neither the Enclave nor the Vault Experiments were a retconn.

Fallout 1 never stated that the Enclave didn't exist, therefore they are not actively revising the lore of a previous game.

Fallout 1 never stated that the Vaults were intended to protect people, and supposing how many Vaults had surprising amounts of "flaws" in them, it kinda seems like a reasonable addon to the lore, as opposed to an active retconn.

Fallout 2 never retcons, it only adds new parts and plot twists on to previous lore.

 

[TransgenderVaultDeweller]

Khans were a great example and the Fiends as well of Raider groups who you could talk to and communicate with, Unlike in Fallout 4 where you get shot on sight in what appears to be netural ground in an establishment men't for gambling by fights and partially a bar it seems. A place of respite, you would think. The fact very alone that i'm even allow to enter the Khans camp without being hostile and that i can talk my way into the vault where the fiends are at and actually have a discussion is attributed with the notion of prioritizing world building over player convenience. Fallout 4 is bad and it should feel bad. The fiends alone have more depth then the Gunners, Raiders, and Super Mutants in fallout 4 combined.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Especially for the claim that Bethesda doesn't prioritize world building over player convenience.

*Shrugs*
Nothing we say here, hasn't been already said by others, with better words and by giving examples:


Sadly I can't find this 2 hour long video, that was specifically about Fallout 4, why it isn't a Fallout game anymore, and why it actually fails so hard as RPG. But there are other, shorter videos that hightlight the problems.



By the way, there is also the Codex Review.
13 Shocking Facts about Fallout 4 That Will Forever Change the Way You Think about RPGs

Too bad nearly the entire gaming community disagrees. And the income figures.

Really, now. Really? I mean like, really? :/
The, it's better because it sold more, card? And argumentum ad populum? The Tagz I know, can make finer points than that :p. Do you think holy Rosh or saint Welsh would have made such points while arguing?

 

[ecogen]

Ok so I recently found out about these forums and I was browsing through the FO4 threads when I stumbled on to this one.

After reading the OP, I started reading through the reddit thread and the responses Tagziel had for the OP until I reached the "counter-argument" to no 15:

15 : The synths uprising There's a problem with the synths. I'm told that they may be preparing an uprising. This is a problem... Except that it's not. At all. The institute has speakers and synths can be desactivated using a safe word. An uprising would be dealt with in a matter of one minute, by shutting down the synths. I don't even see why this element is treated as a threat.

He countered with the following:

You do realize that every synth has an individual reset code and the Institute would have to broadcast every single one of these codes separately? And that's assuming that the Code Defender doesn't, oh, shut down the loud speaker system or isolate it from the grid? Or that synths don't shoot loudspeakers on sight? Or, say cover their ears?

When I read this I kinda lost my shit, because the dude appears to be pretty intelligent overall. And to be fair technically he does have a point that what the OP posted isn't technically "lore-breaking" or a "plot-hole" since it is explained in game. BUT, and this is a big but.

Bear with me for a bit.

The Institute is pretty much using sentient beings as slaves/errand boys/experiments call them whatever you will.
Biggest threat when you're using sentient beings as slaves? Revolt.
Even if there is no huge threat having failsafes is a good idea in general when dealing with AI.
And the supposedly highly intelligent scientists in the institute that created AIs and freaking teleportation devices couldn't come up with a more reliable failsafe than "individual reset codes that the synths have to hear". REALLY? This is horrible writing, and pretty much paints the Institute as complete morons (so do a bunch of other things in the game ie. shutting down the implant research, their useless FEV experiments etc. but whatever). You are telling me that the dudes that created TELEPORTERS couldn't come up with a better safety measure? There's literally hundreds of things they could have done with the technology they possess. No remote off switch? No mini-charge in the synths' brains that can be detonated remotely? Nothing? The best thing they could come up with was "safe words"? Please.

And the funny thing is they could have had the same result but with actual good writing, could have even added a quest or two with you secretly taking care of all the security measures. But nope, all we get is this moronic cop-out.

Anyway, done with my rant. If you find any problems with my reasoning feel free to point them out so I can get extremely butthurt and insult you in turn.

PS: Yay 1st post. \o/

 

[0wing]

The Institute

Is dumbest 'smart people' in Fallout universe. It's all about the writting. The glorious obsidian-level writting. /s

 

[Radiosity]

The reset codes boil down to nothing more than Rule of Cool. It sounds cool to have a random dude intone a reset code to subjugate a potential enemy. In Bethesda's limited mind, this is all the logic you need.

 

[Tagaziel]

The Institute is pretty much using sentient beings as slaves/errand boys/experiments call them whatever you will.

The Institute is myopic in that it doesn't consider them anything other than slaves. It's called underestimating the enemy.

This is horrible writing

It's good, realistic writing. It's a flaw that emphasizes the Institute's myopic approach to the big picture. We make mistakes like that all the time. You know, like a system designed to ensure all pilots are in good health and safe from hijackings not only lets through a suicidal, depressed crew member, but allows him to crash a plane with impunity[URL="http://.

Compared to that, a system being vulnerable to simultaneous, mass revolt (which is something the Institute didn't really have to account for, given that they assumed the SRB would nip any budding revolutionaries and remove them) doesn't seem unlikely"].

Compared to that, a system being vulnerable to simultaneous, mass revolt (which is something the Institute didn't really have to account for, given that they assumed the SRB would nip any budding revolutionaries and remove them) doesn't seem unlikely.[/url]

 

[Crni Vuk]

Well to be fair, the Master was a rather intelligent character, and he never bothered to look and check if his Super Mutants can actually get children. Which kinda send him in such deep trouble, that he decided to suicide.
That's really not the worst kind of offender by the Institute, I am sure they could have come up with better things. But it is what it is. The fact that they made Super Mutants, for such a long time, basically for lulz reasons and releasing them to the surface? That sounds, just from the describtion, kinda more dumb and like a hamfisted situation, because a Fallout game without some Super Mutants, is not a Fallout game I guess ...

 

[Tagaziel]

Yes you could cheat the mechanic, in the same way that you can walk through locked doors while holding a plate in Skyrim. Does that mean future Elder Scrolls games should make it so that there are no locked doors in the game?, No because that would be stupid. Just because there is a way to cheat the mechanic, doesn't mean that the mechanic should be removed entirely.

And I'm not arguing Fallout 2 was an ideal game. in lots of aspects New Vegas did a lot better than it, however it's a good, well-thought out(Excluding the Coffin Willie part) game, and far more lore-friendly than you are making it out to be.

So the fact that you can shoot up a town and be forgiven 3 days later isn't evidence enough?

Nope. You keep citing that mechanic as if you were purposefully killing people in settlements.

How about the fact that you can become leader of a faction after a day?

The Minutemen? Given that it's a faction that's composed of one guy at that point and you're as good a choice as any, it's perfectly understandable.

Or the fact that you can just force lots of people in to an arena for your entertainment, and they don't even look twice?

How about the fact that pretty much every settlement is just a blank slate for the player to work on later in-game?

Game mechanics. How about the fact you can saunter up to Frank Horrigan, feed him a crate of beers, and bask in the glory of Per 1 end boss missing all the time? Or dismissing NPCs to use as road blocks?

Ok San Fransisco was a little silly, i'll give you that one, but that was only one part of the plot, and it wasn't actively unrealistic like parts of the plot in 3 and 4.

Yes, yes it was. Incongruous.

As for the Enclave, I disagree with you there. I thought the premise of a genocidal regime trying to wipe out mutants from the wastelands was quite an interseting one. And while, yes they are obviously based on a cross between Nazis and Republicans, but in the same way that The Railroad was based off of the Underground Railroad, or how NCR in New Vegas is basically a shoddy cross between WW2 and 1800s America, or the Fallout 4 Brotherhood of Steel being based strongly after the tales of King Arthur(With the Prydwen for example).

Too bad that genocidal regime was led by a President with Monica Lewinsky for a secretary, Dan Quayle as advisor, and a scientific rationale for their genocide that was so unscientific it made Rosenberg's theories look acceptable in academia.

A faction being based off of something familiar isn't inherently bad, if they aren't total copies of it. The Enclave had a lot of interesting technologies, were mysterious and often seen interfering with the events of the wasteland. Yes they were "The Bastard Stepchild of Neo-Nazis and Republicans", but that doesn't mean that they are any less of a good faction

Except they really are. Poorly developed, unambiguously evil, cartoonish villains. The game goes out of its way to portray the Enclave as comically evil, starting with the whole family killing, through drug and slave running, abductions, exterminating deathclaws and murdering Brotherhood personnel, down to the whole "hey, let's wipe out humanity!" plot stolen from a bad comic book.

Yeah, sorry. The benchmark is the Unity, which was a very morally grey faction and, if it wasn't for the sterility issue, would have been the good option and ending in the game. The Enclave? Sorry, total global genocide to the sound of marching jackboots doesn't sound morally grey. There's nothing redeeming about them. Same as in Fallout 3... Or no, actually, Fallout 3 was better as Autumn openly disagreed with Eden's total genocide option and apparently intended to use the Purifier as leverage.

Was I explicitly told that the Press Gangs in Fallout 2 recruit from the outside?

That's the name. They also scream Join or Die! Pretty unambiguous.

Did the Jackals and Vipers run a betting ring that was supposed to be a place where other Raider gangs can cool off and gamble?

The thing that matters isn't that you can't join them, the thing that matters is that you are told repeatedly that they recruit from the outside, and that they are neutral betting rings, and yet for some reason, neither is true.

Neither is true for you. OK, let's entertain you. Why should they trust you? Why should they trust any random asshole from the wasteland coming up to their gates?

I wasn't suggesting that they dumb down the factions, I was suggesting they rewrite them in a way that is consistent.

I.e. nitpicking.

Let's take the Viper's for instance: If you read the Fallout Bible, you'll find lot's of lore about them. They gain there recruits from kidnapping, they perform rituals regarding snakes, it's suggested that they don't do ransoms like the Khans, because they are more obsessed with sacrificing to their snake God than they are with loot.

These Raiders are completely hostile, they aren't presented as running betting rings, or for actively recruiting people who come and attempt to join them, instead they kidnap and force future members of their tribes

It is possible to have a well-written faction, that doesn't nescessarily have to be neutral. Why didn't they come up with similar backstories for The Forged(Would fit quite well considering there form of worship for the Forge), Or for the Gunners.

I'm not suggesting they dumb-down these factions, I'm suggesting that they write them the way there are presented. Writing a faction of completely hostile raiders doesn't automatically = dumbing down. They could have easily made these factions consistent with themselves without making them dumber.

Yes, it is. The game's fine as it is and I really don't see

Those were two examples. Perhaps the source of income comes from a combination of all of the towns in the Big Circle combined Yeah, two mining towns wouldn't be enough to provide income, but how about Two Mining Towns, One of the wealthiest cities around, and a Farming Town. Not to mention that it's already been stated that a few of the gangsters living in The Den often make trips to New Reno to refill their supplies of Jet, plus it is suggested that there are also quite a few independent tribes and villages living around the wasteland that we haven't seen.

See, you can't even provide a reasonable justification. You refer to "quite a few independent tribes and villages around the wasteland", ignoring the fact that tribes and villages don't have disposable money to use in casinos.

And you still haven't answered who from Vault City would visit New Reno, given that the authorities explicitly advise against visiting it or even leaving the City in the first place.

And I know the NCR is quite far away, but don't forget, hundreds of people travel by plane to visit Las Vegas. That must be a long and stressful journey, and I'm sure many towns have there own casinos anyway, however it's a city that allows high-stake gambling, so people go through great lengths to get to it regardless.

BY PLANE.

Not by foot through a long stretch of wasteland. Given that the NCR has trains transporting raw materials to the front, it's likely that trains play a role in delivering people to Vegas. There's no train or connection to New Reno that would allow for simple, convenient travel.

Tourism?, So they can do activities which are considered illegal in other parts of the world?

You don't have the slightest idea what you're talking about, do you?

It's kind of in the same way that tourists might visit countries where there are bandits actively roaming the roads, or countries with corrupt police forces, or in the same way people might visit Vegas despite its streets being incredibly crime-polluted. The same reason that a couple hundred years ago rich land-owners traveled hundreds of miles to see landmarks all across Europe. Even in the real world, people put themselves in very risky situations for the sense of adventure, and visiting a new place.

You basically didn't answer my question. The fraction of people doing it for the sense of adventure is minuscule.

I never once tried to make excuses for Coffin Willie. I tried to for San Fran and New Reno, but I fully accepted from the beggining that Coffin Willie was a stupid idea.

That doesn't however, change the fact that Billy is actually inconsistent with the lore from a previous game, and Coffin Willie is not.

Because you say so?

Too bad the entire gaming community is made up of the type of idiots who call themselves "Fallout fans" despite never playing the originals.

Too bad the entire gaming community is made up of people who wont play older games because they are under the delusion that new = better.

Too bad the entire gaming community doesn't want to think while they play games, and just want to shoot shit and build cool houses.

And the entire gaming community doesn't disagree with me. Fallout 4 got a 5.3 on Metacritic, the lowest that any Fallout game discluding BOS got, a 80% steam satisfaction rate: The lowest any Fallout game has ever got. Yes most people disagree, but there is more hate for Fallout 4 then there is for pretty much any other Fallout game ever made.

Ah yes, elitism. You're right, you're so much better than the plebs, with their enjoyable games. So I'm an idiot and didn't play the originals because I like Fallout 4? I'm under the delusion that new is better? Or that I just want to shoot shit and build cool houses?

How cute.

As for the Income Figures. A franchise with one of the most fanatic fanbases ever releases a new game, and has one of the biggest marketing campaigns in video game history. No shit the sales are good. How much money a game makes doesn't represent how many people like the game, it represents how many people thought they would be interested in buying it, which can be, in some circumstances, a very different thing.

And don't forget that figure includes people like me, who were scammed by Bethesda in to thinking they were getting a Roleplaying game.

Oh yes, all those people who bought the game, so unsatisfied!

Neither the Enclave nor the Vault Experiments were a retconn.

Fallout 1 never stated that the Enclave didn't exist, therefore they are not actively revising the lore of a previous game.

Fallout 1 never stated that the Vaults were intended to protect people, and supposing how many Vaults had surprising amounts of "flaws" in them, it kinda seems like a reasonable addon to the lore, as opposed to an active retconn.

Fallout 2 never retcons, it only adds new parts and plot twists on to previous lore.

Uh, yes, they are retcons. They are retcons by definition, as they work in a shadow government and a Vault experiment that were never even hinted at. Instead of Vault 12 being a malfunctioning Vault, which is understandable, it was some kind of grand social experiment to... Test how irradiated people fare? Vault 15, instead of happening to contain a mix of minorities (for various reasons, which need not be sinister) is now purposefully packed with minorities to test how people react to being confined. Vault 13 is a control group.

It's funny how you employ double standards. Introducing the Enclave isn't an active revision of the lore of a previous game, since their absence wasn't directly stated. Yet you don't use the same logic towards Fallout 3 and 4. Double standards much?

Well to be fair, the Master was a rather intelligent character, and he never bothered to look and check if his Super Mutants can actually get children. Which kinda send him in such deep trouble, that he decided to suicide.
That's really not the worst kind of offender by the Institute, I am sure they could have come up with better things. But it is what it is. The fact that they made Super Mutants, for such a long time, basically for lulz reasons and releasing them to the surface? That sounds, just from the describtion, kinda more dumb and like a hamfisted situation, because a Fallout game without some Super Mutants, is not a Fallout game I guess ...

Interference. They keep the surfacers disorganized and distract them from the Institute.

 

[ecogen]

The Institute is myopic in that it doesn't consider them anything other than slaves. It's called underestimating the enemy.



It's good, realistic writing. It's a flaw that emphasizes the Institute's myopic approach to the big picture. We make mistakes like that all the time. You know, like a system designed to ensure all pilots are in good health and safe from hijackings not only lets through a suicidal, depressed crew member, but allows him to crash a plane with impunity.

Compared to that, a system being vulnerable to simultaneous, mass revolt (which is something the Institute didn't really have to account for, given that they assumed the SRB would nip any budding revolutionaries and remove them) doesn't seem unlikely.

Nope sorry, bad writing. Even if the Institute was underestimating the enemy it makes no sense for them to choose "safe words" as their failsafe.

The fact that they created a failsafe in and of itself means that they felt they needed one. Considering their technology they could have come up with something far more reliable that would require similar or maybe even less effort to implement than assigning safe words for every single synth, heck most options would take less effort than that.

If it takes both me and you like 5 seconds to find multiple faults with their security measure of choice, then it's bad writing. You would have a point if "safe words" were in the realm of a somewhat reliable way to deal with threats, but it's not even close. It's just plain stupid.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Interference. They keep the surfacers disorganized and distract them from the Institute.

From the people that constantly hammer it down to you, how they do everything for the better of human kind, rebuilding civilisation and wondering why the people on the surface reject them - or something like that.
Let us be honest. The reason why the Super Mutants are in Fallout 4, are much simpler. Walking Orcs as target practise for the player. That's it. Obviously, just my opinion. But I don't see them really adding anything to the game outside of that. Not like the Synth for example, which have their own faction, their own quests and a hell lot more interaction with the player. In F4 the Super Mutants, are yet again, nothing more but some brutes to shoot at. Just like in F3. They throw in 1 or 2 "interesting" Mutants in there. But I think New Vegas has shown how to do it right. It not only has given us more ways to interact with them, it also had ties to Fallout 1 - which was very neat, and showing us what they did after the Master died. Yeah, yeah, the SMs in F4 are a different strain, still a lot of wasted potential in my opinion. Would have been awesome to give the player actually a non-human faction to work with. For once.

 

[IndignantHedgehog]

Uh, yes, they are retcons. They are retcons by definition, as they work in a shadow government and a Vault experiment that were never even hinted at. Instead of Vault 12 being a malfunctioning Vault, which is understandable, it was some kind of grand social experiment to... Test how irradiated people fare? Vault 15, instead of happening to contain a mix of minorities (for various reasons, which need not be sinister) is now purposefully packed with minorities to test how people react to being confined. Vault 13 is a control group.

Actually, I'm going to disagree with you there. Retcons require previously established facts to change. There were retcons in 2, but I'm pretty sure those are not.

 

[0wing]

Sadly I can't find this 2 hour long video, that was specifically about Fallout 4, why it isn't a Fallout game anymore, and why it actually fails so hard as RPG. But there are other, shorter videos that hightlight the problems.

I don't think much people including pro-bethesdians will spend time to watch it fully but anyway. (because 2 hours is really long)

But give it a try. This video pretty much sums up my feelings on Fallout 4. Shame no such video about Fallout 2.