Why Fo4 fucked Fallout lore

[mithrap]

Hello everyone,
First of all, let me introduce myself : I am the original author of the text, copied in Reddit 17 days ago, but originally posted on Steam forums. I subscribed to NMA for the first time just now, because I wanted to share this very precise text with you all... As a player and fan of Fallout since I played the first one in 1998 in the office of an electronic store in France (Yes, I live in Europe, so I didn't see children in Fallout for a long time !), I was deeply disappointed by what the franchise had become with F3.
New Vegas may have redeemed the writing issues, true, but when I found out that Fallout 4 didn't follow the example, I had to react.

This is why I created this topic on Steam : http://steamcommunity.com/app/377160/discussions/0/458606877310719380/

Note the date (20th of January), and the date of the reddit topic creation (17 days ago). I wanted to express my worries about how low the writing is now considered in the industry, with Bethesda Studio in particular. I'm not sure what I expected, but I had to react, because at this point, I felt that Fanfiction was seen as a standard for writing, and... I don't know. I had to react.
In fact, I did not even know that someone had pasted my text on Reddit until I subscribed to the NMA forum just now. To be honest, I don't really care (I'm even a bit flattered, to be honest), the result is the same :

I wanted to share these thoughts with you, as an introduction and proof of passion towards this franchise.
I look forward to contribute to this forum, in which I know I won't encounter any trolls (Someone invited me to an "autistic group" on Steam and don't get me started on the private messages I received...). I followed this community for ages without actually participating in it, and I thought that writing this was a good way to introduce myself and my opinions to you.

 

[DirtyOldShoe]

Sadly I can't find this 2 hour long video, that was specifically about Fallout 4, why it isn't a Fallout game anymore, and why it actually fails so hard as RPG.

Well it isn't 2 hours, but there is this, accepted quite well by random internet people.

I also agree with most of the video and think it best represents my view of Fallout 4

Snip

Welcome to NMA, loved your perspective in your article and agree. Saved it to my PC 17 days ago

 

[Radiosity]

Hello everyone,
First of all, let me introduce myself : I am the original author of the text, copied in Reddit 17 days ago, but originally posted on Steam forums. I subscribed to NMA for the first time just now, because I wanted to share this very precise text with you all... As a player and fan of Fallout since I played the first one in 1998 in the office of an electronic store in France (Yes, I live in Europe, so I didn't see children in Fallout for a long time !), I was deeply disappointed by what the franchise had become with F3.
New Vegas may have redeemed the writing issues, true, but when I found out that Fallout 4 didn't follow the example, I had to react.

This is why I created this topic on Steam : http://steamcommunity.com/app/377160/discussions/0/458606877310719380/

Note the date (20th of January), and the date of the reddit topic creation (17 days ago). I wanted to express my worries about how low the writing is now considered in the industry, with Bethesda Studio in particular. I'm not sure what I expected, but I had to react, because at this point, I felt that Fanfiction was seen as a standard for writing, and... I don't know. I had to react.
In fact, I did not even know that someone had pasted my text on Reddit until I subscribed to the NMA forum just now. To be honest, I don't really care (I'm even a bit flattered, to be honest), the result is the same :

I wanted to share these thoughts with you, as an introduction and proof of passion towards this franchise.
I look forward to contribute to this forum, in which I know I won't encounter any trolls (Someone invited me to an "autistic group" on Steam and don't get me started on the private messages I received...). I followed this community for ages without actually participating in it, and I thought that writing this was a good way to introduce myself and my opinions to you.

Oh hey, it's you. Saw a few of your posts on Steam back when I was still playing the game

 

[Jogre]

Nope. You keep citing that mechanic as if you were purposefully killing people in settlements.

I don't quite get what you mean by this one. Making it so that people respond to murder and theft by forgiving you 3 days later isn't a realistic way of responding to situations. If they really valued World Building over Player Convinience, they would make it so people responded realistically.

Game mechanics. How about the fact you can saunter up to Frank Horrigan, feed him a crate of beers, and bask in the glory of Per 1 end boss missing all the time? Or dismissing NPCs to use as road blocks?

The thing is, the developers of FO2 didn't intend to make it so you could get Frank Horrigan Drunk, it's just a cheat that players used. The Developers of Fallout 4 however, intentionally made it so the player could force settlers in to an arena. It was the whole appeal of Wasteland Workshop. They intentionally chose to make settlers act unrealistically, so that players could just go "Lol, I'm getting my peoples to shoot at each other."

Too bad that genocidal regime was led by a President with Monica Lewinsky for a secretary, Dan Quayle as advisor, and a scientific rationale for their genocide that was so unscientific it made Rosenberg's theories look acceptable in academia.

So lets say the Enclave politicians were based on real world politicians. Again, nothing wrong with basing something off of real world inspirations.

As for the scientific rationale for genocide, there have been dozens of genocides in the past hundred years, please find one in which there is any logic behind. The "science" behind it, the way I see it, was just a way of the Enclave justifying their feelings of superiority over the wasteland.

Except they really are. Poorly developed, unambiguously evil, cartoonish villains. The game goes out of its way to portray the Enclave as comically evil, starting with the whole family killing, through drug and slave running, abductions, exterminating deathclaws and murdering Brotherhood personnel, down to the whole "hey, let's wipe out humanity!" plot stolen from a bad comic book.

Yeah, guess it wasn't very morally unambigous. That doesn't mean it's a bad plot point, that just means that it's not as good as some of the other villains(EG. The Master)

And at least you can kind of see all the motives behind there plans, and their history and stuff.


I kind of see your points about New Reno and the Press Gangers. But in Fallout 4, there are hundreds of Raiders gangs everywhere, and settlements consist of small farms, there is no way the settlements could have survived this long without being overrun, so the way I see it, Fallout 4(A whole game) has just as unrealistic of an "Economic Model"(In Broad Turns) than New Reno(One City)

I won't nitpick about the Raiders anymore, as that is a fair point you've raised.

Because you say so?

You keep saying "Because You Say So", as if the only reason billy is inconsistent with previous lore is because I say so. I'll put this in capitals so you get it this time

NECROPOLIS IN FALLOUT 1 NEEDS WATER TO SURVIVE(IF YOU DON'T REPAIR WATER PUMP, THEY DIE OF DEHYDRATION)

BILLY GOES 210 YEARS WITHOUT WATER

THEREFORE BILLY = INCONSISTENT WITH FORMER LORE REGARDING NECROPOLIS

NEVER EXPLICITLY STATED IN PREVIOUS LORE GHOULS NEED TO BREATH

THEREFORE COFFIN WILLIE = NOT INCONSISTENT, AS IT WAS NEVER ESTABLISHED IN LORE THAT GHOULS NEED TO BREATH

COFFIN WILLIE = UNREALISTIC

BILLY = UNREALISTIC, AND SPECIFICALLY CONTRADICTS FORMER LORE

UNREALISTIC + CONTRADICTORY TO FORMER LORE > UNREALISTIC

THEREFORE COFFIN WILLIE = VERY, VERY BAD, BILLY = WORSE

Sorry if this comes across somewhat patronizing, it's just that I have explained this several times, and it kinda seems I had to really spell this out for you.

Ah yes, elitism. You're right, you're so much better than the plebs, with their enjoyable games

I don't see it as elitism. I just think that you can't, in all honesty call yourself a fan, if you won't even try the originals.

So I'm an idiot and didn't play the originals because I like Fallout 4

Why would liking Fallout 4 make you want to play the originals even less?, If you are a huge fan of a franchise, then you are someone who plays the games in said franchise. If you call yourself a mega-fan of a franchise, then pick and choose the games you play, you ain't a mega-fan of said franchise.

The way I see it, the only logical reasons as to why, someone who is genuinely a fan of the Fallout Franchise would not want to play it is because, A. They don't like the game-play style of a game that despite never trying, magically seem to know that they won't enjoy the gameplay, or B. They are one of those people who are like "OLD GAMES SUCK, NEW GAMES = BETTER", which, in itself is purely idiotic.

I'm under the delusion that new is better?

You've got to admit, there are a lot of gamers who refuse to play old games, because they automatically that more modern games are better. Tell me that is not an idiotic attitude?

Oh yes, all those people who bought the game, so unsatisfied!

Just because you bought the game doesn't mean you are nescessarily satisfied with it. I bought the game and thought it was a piece of shit, pretty much everyone on this forum but you bought the game and thouht it was a piece of shit. Just because you buy a game doesn't mean you like it.

Uh, yes, they are retcons. They are retcons by definition, as they work in a shadow government and a Vault experiment that were never even hinted at. Instead of Vault 12 being a malfunctioning Vault, which is understandable, it was some kind of grand social experiment to... Test how irradiated people fare? Vault 15, instead of happening to contain a mix of minorities (for various reasons, which need not be sinister) is now purposefully packed with minorities to test how people react to being confined. Vault 13 is a control group.

Let me put it this way:

When you look at the G.E.C.K in Fallout 2 with knowledge from Fallout 3 in mind, you don't think "Oh, that makes sense", you think "This has been retconned"

When you look at Necropolis in Fallout 1 with knowledge from Fallout 4 in mind, you don't think "This changes my idea of it" you think "This has been retconned.

You can actively visit the Vaults in Fallout 1, with knowledge from Fallout 2 and think "Oh, it kinda makes sense why they were like this, or ended up like that". Say they had implemented the Vault Experiment excuse in Fallout 1. The game's lore would not be inconsistent with itself.

However, if they had introduced the Fallout 3 description of the G.E.C.K, along with the already-present Fallout 2 description of the G.E.C.K, there would be two clashing descriptions of the device, meaning the lore would be inconsistent with itself.

If you had introduced something saying Ghouls don't need to eat and drink in Fallout 1, and then came across necropolis, which could die of dehydration, the lore would seem inconsistent with itself.

The difference between a Retcon and an Addition, as I see it, is that a Retconn would make the game no longer make sense, if it was implemented in the game from which the lore is being retconned.

 

[mithrap]

Oh hey, it's you. Saw a few of your posts on Steam back when I was still playing the game

Hi again, then ! Glad to be on NMA now. I sometimes still post on the Steam forum, but considering that the original post has something like 1200 replies, I mostly try to avoid it. No sense in beating a dead horse any longer.

Reading this post, I realized that I've made someone upset when talking about Shaun's cancer, describing it as a "genetic booboo" or something of the sort. I'm really sorry about that. I too have lost people because of cancer, and I certainly didn't want to offend anyone. I simply wanted to make the reading easier with a few jokes (given the length of the text...), but I understand that this one wasn't funny. At all. So, please excuse me for that.

 

[TransgenderVaultDeweller]

Well it isn't 2 hours, but there is this, accepted quite well by random internet people.

I also agree with most of the video and think it best represents my view of Fallout 4


Welcome to NMA, loved your perspective in your article and agree. Saved it to my PC 17 days ago

The comment sections pretty much sum it up. One in particular i fully concur with.


"In fallout new vegas, You can talk the final boss from inflicting physical violence. In fallout 4, You're forced to kill Kellogg cornflakes."

 

[0wing]

If anyone will return to Jet, here's from Myron's dialogs as referrence:
"Before the Big One some meat companies were experimenting with a cheap protein extract for growing food, but they had to ditch it. One little skin bacteria contaminates it, and it's all screwed. The contaminated version acted like an amphetamine when ingested. Little side effect. Don't ask. It's, uh, technical. When they first screwed up, they contaminated tons of that shit. And rather than ditch it, they fed it to their brahmin herds to try and recoup their losses. See, we start experimenting with the brahmin shit as fertilizer for the shrooms, except get this; then, we noticed the slaves working fertilizer vats were getting high from the fumes… By putting tons of brahmin shit in the vats, we found out that the fumes give more than enough of a kick. Eureka. Literally. 'Course, we had to test to get the mix right… Well, not on purpose. I mean, slaves are expensive. Still, we made the money back in the first few months, so the Mordino Family wasn't too pissed at me."
I think someone's just scratching hate out of his buttcheeks. No one said jet is fumes alone.

 

[Radiosity]

Hi again, then ! Glad to be on NMA now. I sometimes still post on the Steam forum, but considering that the original post has something like 1200 replies, I mostly try to avoid it. No sense in beating a dead horse any longer.

Reading this post, I realized that I've made someone upset when talking about Shaun's cancer, describing it as a "genetic booboo" or something of the sort. I'm really sorry about that. I too have lost people because of cancer, and I certainly didn't want to offend anyone. I simply wanted to make the reading easier with a few jokes (given the length of the text...), but I understand that this one wasn't funny. At all. So, please excuse me for that.

Eh, from the point of view of the Institute with all their magical technology, cancer really is just a genetic booboo. With the likes of Radaway, Rad-X, radiation guns, and the ability to create synthetic people who are literally indistinguishable from humans, there's just no logical way this place wouldn't have the ability to cure cancer, it should be no more deadly to them than a simple upset stomach.
That's the problem with Bethesda; they don't think through any form of internal consistency, instead just making shit up as they go and contradicting not only established lore, but their own stuff in the very same game. Shaun's cancer is a cheap plot device for some cheap manufactured pathos.

 

[mithrap]

If anyone will return to Jet, here's from Myron's dialogs:
"Before the Big One some meat companies were experimenting with a cheap protein extract for growing food, but they had to ditch it. One little skin bacteria contaminates it, and it's all screwed. The contaminated version acted like an amphetamine when ingested. Little side effect. Don't ask. It's, uh, technical. When they first screwed up, they contaminated tons of that shit. And rather than ditch it, they fed it to their brahmin herds to try and recoup their losses. See, we start experimenting with the brahmin shit as fertilizer for the shrooms, except get this; then, we noticed the slaves working fertilizer vats were getting high from the fumes… By putting tons of brahmin shit in the vats, we found out that the fumes give more than enough of a kick. Eureka. Literally. 'Course, we had to test to get the mix right… Well, not on purpose. I mean, slaves are expensive. Still, we made the money back in the first few months, so the Mordino Family wasn't too pissed at me."
I think someone's just scratching hate out of his buttcheeks...

Yes, I recently replied this quote on the Steam post. The thing that I wrote, and that people don't seem to have read, is that the Mordinos aren't just brutes, mindless raiders like the ones of F4. They are intelligent, in the sense that they hold a cartel together, understand business and have, on overall, quite impressive skills of empathy. When the choosen one chit chats to them, they understand it, and they take action.
Myron is not the choosen one. He's a coward. Knowing the Mordinos, he would have never had the guts to lie to their faces and chit chat about the Jet creation. Certainly not after the money the Mordinos put in the effort.
When you consider the price of a slave sold by Metzger, you understand that the Mordinos spent a fortune for this project. They would have never done it, if Jet could be achieved simply by reading a pre war formula.

Eh, from the point of view of the Institute with all their magical technology, cancer really is just a genetic booboo. With the likes of Radaway, Rad-X, radiation guns, and the ability to create synthetic people who are literally indistinguishable from humans, there's just no logical way this place wouldn't have the ability to cure cancer, it should be no more deadly to them than a simple upset stomach.
That's the problem with Bethesda; they don't think through any form of internal consistency, instead just making shit up as they go and contradicting not only established lore, but their own stuff in the very same game. Shaun's cancer is a cheap plot device for some cheap manufactured pathos.

I agree with you on all that. I just didn't want to offend people by how I made my point, that's all.
In my mind, the only reason why Fallout takes place SO long in the future is to extrapolate on how technology evolved (and of course, how societies evolved, and dealt with their past.). In Bethesda's case, they set up a Sci fi universe, set far away in the future, but they treat it as if it was today. With today's morals, today's problems, today's views on technology and today's dilemmas.
I mean, that's why many movies also upset me. Look at Kingdom of Heaven. It's basically a man with XXth century morals dealing with moral problems of feodal times. It's unrealistic. It breaks immersion, which is necessary for me to enjoy any piece of fiction.
Yes, considering how technology advances, both in real life and in the Fallout universe, Cancer would be nothing more than a boo boo at this level of time and advancement. But I expressed it in a way that could offend people, and that wasn't my intention.

 

[IndignantHedgehog]

Is there any conclusive evidence to how long Willie was buried? Because this could mean that ghouls only need a very small amount of air, not absolutely none. Just conjecture, but still.

Also, Joseph Anderson is awesome, I love his videos. He just needs to work on his voice.

 

[0wing]

Agreed, with FEV and advanced antiradiation drugs there's no way medicine and biology can stay on today's standarts or even 1950s' standarts especially with underdeveloped computers and electronics.

 

[Crni Vuk]

I don't think much people including pro-bethesdians will spend time to watch it fully but anyway. (because 2 hours is really long)

But give it a try. This video pretty much sums up my feelings on Fallout 4. Shame no such video about Fallout 2.

That's the one I was talking about. Well yeah, you really have to be a bit masochistic watching it, not to mention the guy who made it, who also really hate the game. Still, he makes a lot of good points.
And I see it that way, if you like Fallout 4 so much, than this video should not bother you in the slightest, you like the game, or not? But if the opinion of someone makes you rage so much, that you have to insult him, than maybe the opinion you have about the game, is wrong.

The comment sections pretty much sum it up. One in particular i fully concur with.


"In fallout new vegas, You can talk the final boss from inflicting physical violence. In fallout 4, You're forced to kill Kellogg cornflakes."

Cornflakes are known to be a viollent cereal though.

 

[0wing]

eally hate the game.

Yeah, the reaction is a bit too much. But tbh, it really is how the game looks and plays.

 

[TransgenderVaultDeweller]

You know, I said it before and i'll say it again. Bethesda doesn't care about the lore so much as they want to fit in their rule of cool even if that means doing it in the most hamfisted contrived way possible. Vertibirds and Power armor being pre-war? Yeah, It's bullshit but those numbskulls at bethesda don't care they just to make action with a basic leveling system where you increase stats, hp and choose an arbitrary perk while giving you the illusion of free choice. Not much more to be said other than just remind you why i said it's almost time to move on, From this. Fallout a once loved game is nothing more than a marketing cash cow thats being used not to make art in the form of story telling, But to target as many people as possible and copy what is popular instead of going back to its roots about what made it so special in the first place. (No pun intended)

Sad thing is, It's never going to change. Bethesda will never truly appeal to what makes a rpg an RPG because they have no finical creative incentive. They make money just by copying borderlands and minecraft and their creative talents are so bankrupt that it gives that show onwer on mind of mencina a run for his money. More or less their stories are nothing more than gobbled up incoherent nonsense that seems to have more apologist trying to make more of an effort to explain the holes it leaves than the people who originally created it. (Emile) Honestly, Emil hasn't changed since fallout 3 and why do you expect someone who is being rewarded for said work to change when you have people like Tag defend this shit.

Honestly, Fine ladies and gents but this is where i stand. Fallout is dead and i don't think they will ever work on another fallout game again. (Obsidian) I honestly don't think the state of the lore can be repaired, More like putting duck tape on a gushing wound, only delaying the enviable fuck up in fallout 5.

 

[Dr Fallout]

Basically. Fallout 2 retconned a good amount of stuff (dumb plot elements like the Enclave or the Vault experiments forced into the game), but I don't see you moaning about it.

They weren't retconned... retconning is changing stuff from the past, which they didn't so...

No, we cannot, because they had intelligence. Resolving problems is a sign of intelligence. All robots have very advanced problem solving skills.

I'm sure that in your eyes claiming they have intelligence is considered a good argument. And yet you were claiming that WE were mouth breathing haters.
Also, please offer actual examples of Mr Handies and other robots in the FIRST TWO GAMES that were intelligent and solved problems that were different to killing or fixing shit. Evidence?

Oh, so if it doesn't speak pretty, it isn't intelligent or sentient. I assume that means you believe that SkyNET at the Sierra Army Depot isn't intelligent or sentient?

Oh okay, so Evebot is sentient now?

It was intelligent, but it was a massive computer system like ZAX. As I said, that's not a problem. The problem is that Handy Bots and military robots are sentient.

 

[IndignantHedgehog]

Yeah, there is a massive difference between a program being good enough to respond to a variety of circumstances and sentience. And, to be honest, it's more than just a technological one, it's a philosophical one as well. But the general definition is the ability to feel. The ability to view the world subjectively.

 

[Dr Fallout]

Also Skybot was the result of intense military engineering and technology, it's one of a kind. Mr Handy's are not.

 

[Izak]

Someone invited me to an "autistic group" on Steam

Man that's pretty fucked up, odd how some people covet video games so much that they'll bully people that don't like them.

 

[MercenarySnake]

Oh I know why Billy survives without water for 200 years




...He's part cactus like all ghouls are. /s

 

[Crni Vuk]

Also Skybot was the result of intense military engineering and technology, it's one of a kind. Mr Handy's are not.

Wasn't it also a brain bot? The intelligence and usefullness depended a lot on the brain you managed to get. It's really more of a cybernetic thing, with a human brain I think. And that those can gain sentience, is really not much of a surprise, compared to a Mr. Handy, who could maybe just parrot and mimik some human behaviour, depending on its programming. But now, it seems all Mr. Handy are close to human like intelligence? No clue ... but I doubt anyone at Beth really spend to much time thinking about it, outside of, hey! Would it not be really cool if your Mr. Handy companion thingy could call you fuckface?