Why is Caesar legion so hated?

[valcik]

It's unikely that Cesar would want anything from me, and I would have food/water/electricity and be save. It's better than not having any protection and alwyas living under the threat of some bandits/monsters and famine.

Hm, I'm not so sure about that. What do you think would happen when the Legion would find itself in a desperate need of new recruits after suffering some losses in a big battle? It looks very likely to me that those safe and flourishing communities would get ordered to sent their young boys to the training camps.

Also, New Vegas is not unprotected under the rule of Courier supported by Yes Man. There's a lot of securitrons to protect the city, free medical care provided by Followers, water from lake Mead and even some food cultivated by inhabitants of North Square on their own. Such alternative for living sounds much better to me than bowing to Caesar!

 

[Languorous_Maiar]

Also, New Vegas is not unprotected under the rule of Courier supported by Yes Man. There's a lot of securitrons to protect the city, free medical care provided by Followers, water from lake Mead and even some food cultivated by inhabitants of North Square on their own. Such alternative for living sounds much better to me than bowing to Caesar!

It depends on a lot of factors and it's hard to talk about such hypothesis. What if I assume that Courier destroyed army of Securitons, but still went for inde. ending?

Hm, I'm not so sure about that. What do you think would happen when the Legion would find itself in a desperate need of new recruits after suffering some losses in a big battle? It looks very likely to me that those safe and flourishing communities would get ordered to sent their young boys to the training camps.

It can happen but I doubt it would be necessary. After loosing second battle over Hoover, I doubt that Caesar will try third time to take it... and he will not need (fast) reinforcements for conquering northern/southern/eastern wasteland from four states. But my entire point is that, Legion isn't far worse than NCR. Under NCR you can be recruitedeasily too, with higher chances of death (than in Legion). However, although all positives of Legion, it's damn more hated than NCR.

 

[No Man]

However, although all positives of Legion, it's damn more hated than NCR.

Not surprising, really. Obsidian never got the chance to flesh them out, so what we have is an extremely unfavourable portrayal of the group. Literally, the only good things I recall (my memory is not perfect) about the Legion in the game are said by Cass, Raul and Barton. Note 'said', we do not actually see the Legion do a single good thing during the course of the entire game, that I can remember.

Now, what do we get? Slavery, sexual assault, murder, torture, terrorism, fanaticism, pretty much genocide (New Canaan), lies, hypocrisy, brutal assimilation of multiple tribes and luddism. We either actually see those, see results of those or hear about specific instances of those coming from a witness or a victim. It is really no wonder that they are hated. If any, let alone all, of those atrocities were indeed justified with a bigger picture in mind, it would have to be one hell of a picture - and one most refuse to believe is worth it or even viable at all.

 

[valcik]

But my entire point is that, Legion isn't far worse than NCR. Under NCR you can be recruited too easily too, with higher chances of death (than in Legion).

Can't agree with that. As for NCR, they are recruiting mature volunteers - Manny Vargas is a good example, as a former member of Khans making his new career under the NCR flag. Recruiting mature persons with formed personalities is alright in my book. As for the Legion, I do remember that one of the slaves in Caesar's camp would tell you that after conquering some new area, all the mature men are killed, women enslaved and children taken by force from their mothers to be trained into a ruthless, sadistic and violent legionnaires. (This is the same way how islamic jihadists in real world are training their members btw, taking young boys of age 5-6 and forming their personalities into a sadistic merciless killers.)

 

[Languorous_Maiar]

Not always. Look at Hangdogs, but you have the point. However, it's only affecting Tribals, and there is no hope for them anyway. While it's almost genocide, I will not blame harshly such approach in post-apocalypse world, especially that Caesar is doing nothing similar or wrong at all when it comes to normal, non-tribal communities (what are accepting his rule, don't make mistake with comparing it to Mojave - war zone)

 

[Dinxy]

Why the heck is everyone convinced that the good guys in every post-apocalyptic piece of fiction are those who are trying to resurrect the old world? Are we forgetting that it was precisely this old world's mentality and organisation that led to a nuclear holocaust in the first place? You want the entire world to turn into New Vegas? Because clearly New Vegas is such a wonderful place, filled with junkies, thieves, whores and gangsters. Ruled by casinos and wonderful, caring individuals such as Benny and mr. House... (I was being sarcastic, of course) Legion is far from perfect, but it's better then NCR's corruption and "democracy". And it sure as hell knows how to treat bandits and raiders.

Be that as it may, we are still guessing. Because unfortunately, the game's limitation didn't let us see what Legion is like outside of the war zone.

 

[TheRedWastelander]

Because clearly New Vegas is such a wonderful place, filled with junkies, thieves, whores and gangsters.

Funny cuz' that kind of moralizing BS is also what led to the Great War...

 

[Dinxy]

Because clearly New Vegas is such a wonderful place, filled with junkies, thieves, whores and gangsters.

Funny cuz' that kind of moralizing BS is also what led to the Great War...

OK, you got me there...

But still, what I meant to say is, NCR represents in my opinion everything that is both good and bad with the old world. Unfortunately, the result is often those bad things winning.
In Fallout universe, I think, the NCR portrays how "resurrectionists", while their intentions may be good, can unintentionaly bring back some of the worst things about society they're fighting to preserve. They resurrect it with all those flaws that led to the Great War, although that may not be their intention.

But the problem is, the old world is gone in the Fallout universe. So you can't exactly cling onto it's ideals and social norms. NCR wants to bring back democracy? Great, but they're not living in a world before the bombs where that was possible. There were no giant scorpions and drugged up Fiends back then. There was infrastructure, education system (a BIG deal in Fallout universe, the one nobody ever talks about), security, and a significantly smaller number of people that wanted (or wanted, but COULDN'T) put a bullet in your head because they felt like it.

Democracy is useless at this point in their history, at least for the time being. They have far bigger problems that need to be dealt with - by iron fist, not clean elections and freedom of speech for everyone.

The Legion, on the other hand, offers an alternative.They have zero tolerance for criminals of any kind. They want to bring order to a savage wasteland, and they have the muscle to do it. Their methodes are crude, and there is excess, sure, but that's the case with every revolution. You can't exactly sit down and have a diplomatic talk with an uneducated violent raider that carved up a women today because he wanted to steal her water. If you want to keep those kinds of people in line, you need a strong arm. In those extreme conditions, you need to keep things simple for everyone. And even the dumbest thug understands what a punch in the face means. You can't defeat a bully ba letting him voice his opinions and getting him to talk about his feelings. You need to be bigger, stronger, meaner and crazier.

The Caesar may be a guy with a vision, but in order to turn that vision into reality, he needs quick results. Direct approach is the only way in that case. Bureaucratic BS, corruption, and a bunch of ignorant people protesting left and right because they're "entitled" to their opinion about everything would undermine his cause. Old world morals and democratic ideas would simply be counter-productive.

Do I support everything a Legion does? No. Do I think it needs to change? Yes, and it inevitably will, just like every society changes after the war ends. If I were Caesar, would I do some things differently? Absolutely. But let's not forget that we mostly just hear about Legion's alleged atrocities from some third party who may or may not have actually witnessed it. Who knows how much of that is propaganda?

Now some people will say "But what about Nipton?". Nipton? You mean the town that was in cohoots with Powder Gangers, a bunch of escaped criminals that terrorized every town nearby? A gang of ruffians that you spent a healthy portion of the game butchering? Whose mayor tried to sell both the NCR soldiers and his alleged allies, even his own PEOPLE, to the Legion? Yea, I'd say the Legion actually showed restraint when punishing that scum...

But do they deserve such hatred? No. I know a lot of content had to be cut from the game, and that every video game needs a good villain, and Legion seems to fit that role perfectly.

All I'm trying to do is look at things from their perspective. Their methodes may be cruel, but I think they do have a solid reason for acting the way they are. Maybe a DLC will come out that will focus on their side of the story. That would be amazing!

 

[TheRedWastelander]

Because clearly New Vegas is such a wonderful place, filled with junkies, thieves, whores and gangsters.

Funny cuz' that kind of moralizing BS is also what led to the Great War...

OK, you got me there...

But still, what I meant to say is, NCR represents in my opinion everything that is both good and bad with the old world. Unfortunately, the result is often those bad things winning.
In Fallout universe, I think, the NCR portrays how "resurrectionists", while their intentions may be good, can unintentionaly bring back some of the worst things about society they're fighting to preserve. They resurrect it with all those flaws that led to the Great War, although that may not be their intention.

But the problem is, the old world is gone in the Fallout universe. So you can't exactly cling onto it's ideals and social norms. NCR wants to bring back democracy? Great, but they're not living in a world before the bombs where that was possible. There were no giant scorpions and drugged up Fiends back then. There was infrastructure, education system (a BIG deal in Fallout universe, the one nobody ever talks about), security, and a significantly smaller number of people that wanted (or wanted, but COULDN'T) put a bullet in your head because they felt like it.

Democracy is useless at this point in their history, at least for the time being. They have far bigger problems that need to be dealt with - by iron fist, not clean elections and freedom of speech for everyone.

The Legion, on the other hand, offers an alternative.They have zero tolerance for criminals of any kind. They want to bring order to a savage wasteland, and they have the muscle to do it. Their methodes are crude, and there is excess, sure, but that's the case with every revolution. You can't exactly sit down and have a diplomatic talk with an uneducated violent raider that carved up a women today because he wanted to steal her water. If you want to keep those kinds of people in line, you need a strong arm. In those extreme conditions, you need to keep things simple for everyone. And even the dumbest thug understands what a punch in the face means. You can't defeat a bully ba letting him voice his opinions and getting him to talk about his feelings. You need to be bigger, stronger, meaner and crazier.

The Caesar may be a guy with a vision, but in order to turn that vision into reality, he needs quick results. Direct approach is the only way in that case. Bureaucratic BS, corruption, and a bunch of ignorant people protesting left and right because they're "entitled" to their opinion about everything would undermine his cause. Old world morals and democratic ideas would simply be counter-productive.

Do I support everything a Legion does? No. Do I think it needs to change? Yes, and it inevitably will, just like every society changes after the war ends. If I were Caesar, would I do some things differently? Absolutely. But let's not forget that we mostly just hear about Legion's alleged atrocities from some third party who may or may not have actually witnessed it. Who knows how much of that is propaganda?

Now some people will say "But what about Nipton?". Nipton? You mean the town that was in cohoots with Powder Gangers, a bunch of escaped criminals that terrorized every town nearby? A gang of ruffians that you spent a healthy portion of the game butchering? Whose mayor tried to sell both the NCR soldiers and his alleged allies, even his own PEOPLE, to the Legion? Yea, I'd say the Legion actually showed restraint when punishing that scum...

But do they deserve such hatred? No. I know a lot of content had to be cut from the game, and that every video game needs a good villain, and Legion seems to fit that role perfectly.

All I'm trying to do is look at things from their perspective. Their methodes may be cruel, but I think they do have a solid reason for acting the way they are. Maybe a DLC will come out that will focus on their side of the story. That would be amazing!

I disagree,(lol what's new), the NCR aren't bringing democracy, they're just resurrecting Old World "democracy" which has always been undermined by it's relation to capital. I'm actually surprised by how well Obsidian were able to link the problems we have with our society to the NCR. Like in real life "democracy", the people will never really be able reform the inequality in their economy, because it collides with the interests of big Brahmin Barons(like Capitalists and large corporations in real life). I don't think the problem is the NCR is too democratic, I think it's that power still comes from the top not the bottom, as it should. Beating down criminals with an "iron fist" isn't gonna help if the conditions that produce them aren't delt with( i.e poverty, alienation, a feeling of being powerless).

 

[valcik]

The Legion, on the other hand, offers an alternative.They have zero tolerance for criminals of any kind. They want to bring order to a savage wasteland, and they have the muscle to do it. Their methodes are crude, and there is excess, sure, but that's the case with every revolution.

Are you aware that this is basically how old empires worked, long before they've collapsed under its own weight and long before the good old world was burned by nuclear hell? Caesar is doing nothing else than resurrecting old world too. In fact, he's trying to resurrect ideals belonging to much older world. ^^

 

[mef]

plus Ceasar made exactly the same mistake the original Roman Empire did. didn't study his history books very well apparently.

the NCR aren't bringing democracy, they're just resurrecting Old World "democracy"

maybe I'm overdoing this, but I've always seen analogy to cold war in NCR-Legion conflict. NCR as US with all its flaws playing hero and Legion as Soviet Union with its iron fist and hipocrysy and enslavement hidden behind sublime words.

 

[Languorous_Maiar]

The Legion, on the other hand, offers an alternative.They have zero tolerance for criminals of any kind. They want to bring order to a savage wasteland, and they have the muscle to do it. Their methodes are crude, and there is excess, sure, but that's the case with every revolution.

Are you aware that this is basically how old empires worked, long before they've collapsed under its own weight and long before the good old world was burned by nuclear hell? Caesar is doing nothing else than resurrecting old world too. In fact, he's trying to resurrect ideals belonging to much older world. ^^

Such ideas are better for not-so-much civilized world or postapo world, so it isn't that bad in that context imo.

 

[Dinxy]

Because clearly New Vegas is such a wonderful place, filled with junkies, thieves, whores and gangsters.

Funny cuz' that kind of moralizing BS is also what led to the Great War...

OK, you got me there...

But still, what I meant to say is, NCR represents in my opinion everything that is both good and bad with the old world. Unfortunately, the result is often those bad things winning.
In Fallout universe, I think, the NCR portrays how "resurrectionists", while their intentions may be good, can unintentionaly bring back some of the worst things about society they're fighting to preserve. They resurrect it with all those flaws that led to the Great War, although that may not be their intention.

But the problem is, the old world is gone in the Fallout universe. So you can't exactly cling onto it's ideals and social norms. NCR wants to bring back democracy? Great, but they're not living in a world before the bombs where that was possible. There were no giant scorpions and drugged up Fiends back then. There was infrastructure, education system (a BIG deal in Fallout universe, the one nobody ever talks about), security, and a significantly smaller number of people that wanted (or wanted, but COULDN'T) put a bullet in your head because they felt like it.

Democracy is useless at this point in their history, at least for the time being. They have far bigger problems that need to be dealt with - by iron fist, not clean elections and freedom of speech for everyone.

The Legion, on the other hand, offers an alternative.They have zero tolerance for criminals of any kind. They want to bring order to a savage wasteland, and they have the muscle to do it. Their methodes are crude, and there is excess, sure, but that's the case with every revolution. You can't exactly sit down and have a diplomatic talk with an uneducated violent raider that carved up a women today because he wanted to steal her water. If you want to keep those kinds of people in line, you need a strong arm. In those extreme conditions, you need to keep things simple for everyone. And even the dumbest thug understands what a punch in the face means. You can't defeat a bully ba letting him voice his opinions and getting him to talk about his feelings. You need to be bigger, stronger, meaner and crazier.

The Caesar may be a guy with a vision, but in order to turn that vision into reality, he needs quick results. Direct approach is the only way in that case. Bureaucratic BS, corruption, and a bunch of ignorant people protesting left and right because they're "entitled" to their opinion about everything would undermine his cause. Old world morals and democratic ideas would simply be counter-productive.

Do I support everything a Legion does? No. Do I think it needs to change? Yes, and it inevitably will, just like every society changes after the war ends. If I were Caesar, would I do some things differently? Absolutely. But let's not forget that we mostly just hear about Legion's alleged atrocities from some third party who may or may not have actually witnessed it. Who knows how much of that is propaganda?

Now some people will say "But what about Nipton?". Nipton? You mean the town that was in cohoots with Powder Gangers, a bunch of escaped criminals that terrorized every town nearby? A gang of ruffians that you spent a healthy portion of the game butchering? Whose mayor tried to sell both the NCR soldiers and his alleged allies, even his own PEOPLE, to the Legion? Yea, I'd say the Legion actually showed restraint when punishing that scum...

But do they deserve such hatred? No. I know a lot of content had to be cut from the game, and that every video game needs a good villain, and Legion seems to fit that role perfectly.

All I'm trying to do is look at things from their perspective. Their methodes may be cruel, but I think they do have a solid reason for acting the way they are. Maybe a DLC will come out that will focus on their side of the story. That would be amazing!

I disagree,(lol what's new), the NCR aren't bringing democracy, they're just resurrecting Old World "democracy" which has always been undermined by it's relation to capital. I'm actually surprised by how well Obsidian were able to link the problems we have with our society to the NCR. Like in real life "democracy", the people will never really be able reform the inequality in their economy, because it collides with the interests of big Brahmin Barons(like Capitalists and large corporations in real life). I don't think the problem is the NCR is too democratic, I think it's that power still comes from the top not the bottom, as it should. Beating down criminals with an "iron fist" isn't gonna help if the conditions that produce them aren't delt with( i.e poverty, alienation, a feeling of being powerless).

Well, it's not surprising that we disagree, even our avatars are kind of on the opposing sides.

But I have to admit, you have a point there. The situation with raiders and bandits in Fallout kind of reminds me of the same problem cities like Rio De Janeiro have with crimes in favelas. Shooting criminals only results in breeding more criminals, as long as the living conditions for those people don't change. I guess I didn't really think it through, I was still blinded by my hatred for Fiends. You know, after they knocked Veronica unconscious a couple of times, and after they raped corporal Betsy.

Unrelated to the subject, I made killing Cook-Cook my personal crusade, after hearing Betsy's story. Then I emptied another 3 clips of ammo into his body, set him on fire with incinderary grenades and dragged his corpse to the gate of Camp McCarran, just to make sure even the radscorpion in their holes knew how I felt about rapists.

Anyway, the only people who are actually trying to do any good are Followers of the Apocalypse. They provide healthcare, shelter and food for the poor, and even try to get all the power plants up and running in order to provide electricity for everyone, and not just the casinos. But unfortunately, they lack the muscles to have any impact on the world, and they seem too naive to realize it.

Keep in mind that Caesar was also a member of the Followers once. Maybe Legion could provide the muscle Followers need in order to defeat the NCR's corruption and "democracy". I mean, they are still in war. After the war is over, every society changes from it's wartime status to everyday life. Wishful thinking, I know, but there's chance. So because of the fact that we only see Legion's actions in a war zone, and we mostly hear propaganda and exaggerated stories from "a guy who heard it from a guy", I still think they don't deserve as much hatred as they got.

I wish there would be an ending in which the Courier takes over the Legion, and guides them in the right direction.

 

[TheRedWastelander]

Because clearly New Vegas is such a wonderful place, filled with junkies, thieves, whores and gangsters.

Funny cuz' that kind of moralizing BS is also what led to the Great War...

OK, you got me there...

But still, what I meant to say is, NCR represents in my opinion everything that is both good and bad with the old world. Unfortunately, the result is often those bad things winning.
In Fallout universe, I think, the NCR portrays how "resurrectionists", while their intentions may be good, can unintentionaly bring back some of the worst things about society they're fighting to preserve. They resurrect it with all those flaws that led to the Great War, although that may not be their intention.

But the problem is, the old world is gone in the Fallout universe. So you can't exactly cling onto it's ideals and social norms. NCR wants to bring back democracy? Great, but they're not living in a world before the bombs where that was possible. There were no giant scorpions and drugged up Fiends back then. There was infrastructure, education system (a BIG deal in Fallout universe, the one nobody ever talks about), security, and a significantly smaller number of people that wanted (or wanted, but COULDN'T) put a bullet in your head because they felt like it.

Democracy is useless at this point in their history, at least for the time being. They have far bigger problems that need to be dealt with - by iron fist, not clean elections and freedom of speech for everyone.

The Legion, on the other hand, offers an alternative.They have zero tolerance for criminals of any kind. They want to bring order to a savage wasteland, and they have the muscle to do it. Their methodes are crude, and there is excess, sure, but that's the case with every revolution. You can't exactly sit down and have a diplomatic talk with an uneducated violent raider that carved up a women today because he wanted to steal her water. If you want to keep those kinds of people in line, you need a strong arm. In those extreme conditions, you need to keep things simple for everyone. And even the dumbest thug understands what a punch in the face means. You can't defeat a bully ba letting him voice his opinions and getting him to talk about his feelings. You need to be bigger, stronger, meaner and crazier.

The Caesar may be a guy with a vision, but in order to turn that vision into reality, he needs quick results. Direct approach is the only way in that case. Bureaucratic BS, corruption, and a bunch of ignorant people protesting left and right because they're "entitled" to their opinion about everything would undermine his cause. Old world morals and democratic ideas would simply be counter-productive.

Do I support everything a Legion does? No. Do I think it needs to change? Yes, and it inevitably will, just like every society changes after the war ends. If I were Caesar, would I do some things differently? Absolutely. But let's not forget that we mostly just hear about Legion's alleged atrocities from some third party who may or may not have actually witnessed it. Who knows how much of that is propaganda?

Now some people will say "But what about Nipton?". Nipton? You mean the town that was in cohoots with Powder Gangers, a bunch of escaped criminals that terrorized every town nearby? A gang of ruffians that you spent a healthy portion of the game butchering? Whose mayor tried to sell both the NCR soldiers and his alleged allies, even his own PEOPLE, to the Legion? Yea, I'd say the Legion actually showed restraint when punishing that scum...

But do they deserve such hatred? No. I know a lot of content had to be cut from the game, and that every video game needs a good villain, and Legion seems to fit that role perfectly.

All I'm trying to do is look at things from their perspective. Their methodes may be cruel, but I think they do have a solid reason for acting the way they are. Maybe a DLC will come out that will focus on their side of the story. That would be amazing!

I disagree,(lol what's new), the NCR aren't bringing democracy, they're just resurrecting Old World "democracy" which has always been undermined by it's relation to capital. I'm actually surprised by how well Obsidian were able to link the problems we have with our society to the NCR. Like in real life "democracy", the people will never really be able reform the inequality in their economy, because it collides with the interests of big Brahmin Barons(like Capitalists and large corporations in real life). I don't think the problem is the NCR is too democratic, I think it's that power still comes from the top not the bottom, as it should. Beating down criminals with an "iron fist" isn't gonna help if the conditions that produce them aren't delt with( i.e poverty, alienation, a feeling of being powerless).

Well, it's not surprising that we disagree, even our avatars are kind of on the opposing sides.

But I have to admit, you have a point there. The situation with raiders and bandits in Fallout kind of reminds me of the same problem cities like Rio De Janeiro have with crimes in favelas. Shooting criminals only results in breeding more criminals, as long as the living conditions for those people don't change. I guess I didn't really think it through, I was still blinded by my hatred for Fiends. You know, after they knocked Veronica unconscious a couple of times, and after they raped corporal Betsy.

Unrelated to the subject, I made killing Cook-Cook my personal crusade, after hearing Betsy's story. Then I emptied another 3 clips of ammo into his body, set him on fire with incinderary grenades and dragged his corpse to the gate of Camp McCarran, just to make sure even the radscorpion in their holes knew how I felt about rapists.

Anyway, the only people who are actually trying to do any good are Followers of the Apocalypse. They provide healthcare, shelter and food for the poor, and even try to get all the power plants up and running in order to provide electricity for everyone, and not just the casinos. But unfortunately, they lack the muscles to have any impact on the world, and they seem too naive to realize it.

Keep in mind that Caesar was also a member of the Followers once. Maybe Legion could provide the muscle Followers need in order to defeat the NCR's corruption and "democracy". I mean, they are still in war. After the war is over, every society changes from it's wartime status to everyday life. Wishful thinking, I know, but there's chance. So because of the fact that we only see Legion's actions in a war zone, and we mostly hear propaganda and exaggerated stories from "a guy who heard it from a guy", I still think they don't deserve as much hatred as they got.

I wish there would be an ending in which the Courier takes over the Legion, and guides them in the right direction.

And I wish that there was a better independent ending for the followers. I mean if he's/she's idolized by them, you'd think the courier would send a few securitons and supplies to help them out!

 

[FalloutTroll]

I don't know, I actually like playing for them.

 

[Blue]

I think that the Legion's actions, image and aspirations for one reason or another are never met with an equal or superior negative image of the NCR. (For whatever reason, may it be a design choice, or lack of development time) It's also quite natural for someone to dislike slavery, and a rule imposed by strength where the weak are either enslaved or broken.

The Legion has no redeeming factor exposed to the player. The routes are safer outside of Nevada; so what? That doesn't appear in the game. Actually, the places touched by the legion, are often broken, full of slaves, misery and soldiers who may be sadistic psychopaths akin to Raiders or Fiends. There's no reasoning behind the Legion besides the utmost obedience to Caesar whose charm, intellect and philosophy can sway many humans into a line.

Also, they are misogynistic because they need an army; the men are de facto stronger than women when it comes to muscles. There are also a lot of things that a legion needs, and men who are sent to train, hunt, fight, and whatever else cannot possibly do at the same time. That's where also slaves come into play; they use slaves for anything outside of their own expertise, time and improving their comfort and way of life. Why? Because they have neither access to technology that would improve their lives, and also because it's much easier to do that than establishing an economy where the rule (like in the NCR) will always come from profiteering capitalists.

 

[valcik]

Lucius is rolling on his way to the Colorado River, with mirror shades and stuff.

They see him rollin'
They hatin'

 

[EnclaveKnight]

I think that the Legion's actions, image and aspirations for one reason or another are never met with an equal or superior negative image of the NCR. (For whatever reason, may it be a design choice, or lack of development time) It's also quite natural for someone to dislike slavery, and a rule imposed by strength where the weak are either enslaved or broken.

The Legion has no redeeming factor exposed to the player. The routes are safer outside of Nevada; so what? That doesn't appear in the game. Actually, the places touched by the legion, are often broken, full of slaves, misery and soldiers who may be sadistic psychopaths akin to Raiders or Fiends. There's no reasoning behind the Legion besides the utmost obedience to Caesar whose charm, intellect and philosophy can sway many humans into a line.

Also, they are misogynistic because they need an army; the men are de facto stronger than women when it comes to muscles. There are also a lot of things that a legion needs, and men who are sent to train, hunt, fight, and whatever else cannot possibly do at the same time. That's where also slaves come into play; they use slaves for anything outside of their own expertise, time and improving their comfort and way of life. Why? Because they have neither access to technology that would improve their lives, and also because it's much easier to do that than establishing an economy where the rule (like in the NCR) will always come from profiteering capitalists.

this is true. We never meet the NCR ina bad way. the first time meeting the legion? They just destroyed a whole town. Pretty negative/warmongering image to me. they could have been great, but they are given a completely bad image and known as raiders/slavers/killers and all kinds of other trouble.

 

[Robb Stark]

In response to the original post...

They felt too primitive and "look how evil these evil people are". Like I get the idea of imperialism, but dressing up as romans? No thank you..

I would rather a more morally ambiguous legion so picking sides was more difficult. Opposed to me always picking NCR because its the better option in terms of reconstruction over all. While the wild card playthrough is cool, I would only do it if I hated all of the options. Which I dont.

I wish the factions/quests involving them/battle of hoover dam and etc were more dynamic. Wouldn't it be cool to give the army of securitons to the NCR and help them annex Vegas? Which would also in turn allow them to divert more troops to the battle? Or Wild Card but you actually got to influence the ideology of your new nation opposed to "yeah you took over, its orderly and shit." Or becoming the new Caesar by overthrowing Caesar and influencing the legion or maybe even helping someone become the new Caesar?

It feels too rigid and un dynamic.

 

[Super Mutant]

I actually prefer the Legion over every other faction in the game