Why is Caesar legion so hated?

I know what the Crisis was, and you've failed to reinforce your point by mentioning it. The empire recovered (mostly) and continued onwards for almost another 150 years before splitting into East and West. Every nation goes through periods of instability, and this period of instability was not a "grand rebellion of conquered and oppressed peoples" who still had Roman conquest fresh on their minds. Most of the civil wars in Rome were just degenerate aristocrats and overly ambitious generals trying to murder eachother at everybody else's expense, and the 3rd Century's crisis was more of the same thing.
The only really different ones that I remember were the slave rebellion of Spartacus, and the (numerous) Germanic rebellions, and the latter of those two isn't really in your favour since the Germans were immigrants who wanted more than their host country was even capable of giving them, and not some conquered people.

So what's your point, then? That authoritarian systems without the technology to centralise along with a poorly defined succession are more prone towards violent factionalism? Well you're probably correct if that's what your point was.
But that's not what your point was, your point was that an empire built on conquest can't "work properly for a long period of time", when that's not true, or that you "don't believe that people conquered by military force can forget the oppression just like that", which neglects the fact that military conquest is not always inherently "oppressive" long-term (which is not me saying that conquering your neighbours is a good thing).
None of the things you're talking about are what killed the Roman Empire. Constant civil wars of succession, coupled thus with bureaucratic failure leading to a mismanagement of the military, resulting in the nation's defence against foreign threats being compromised (and this compromise being exploited by outside powers looking to further their own status), is not the same thing as oppressed peoples collectively throwing aside the yoke of an autocratic dictator. By the time all of these things had happened, many of the conquered peoples within the Empire hadn't been independent from it for hundreds of years, many of them believed themselves to be Roman, at least in terms of nationality if not ethnicity.

Thing is; you can conquer as many people as you want. What matters as far as keeping them in the empire, is what you do to integrate them into your empire afterwards. Many of the tribes that Rome actually conquered learned to love the empire over time because of the things it provided to them. I think the Legion will definitely be able to outlive the man of its namesake and continue to "work properly for a long period of time", because they've pretty much annihilated the tribal identities of almost all of their subjects. Most of the current and younger generations will have only ever known the legion and its overbearing militarism, and the threats to its stability will either come from some kind of slave revolt or from rival legates aiming for the title of Caesar.
 
And let's not forget that Caesar does have more advanced technology than the Romans, which allows for a more centralized empire, and therefore less powerful individuals alongside Caesar.
Perhaps. Even post-apo Caesar must resort to slow army transport - brahmin drawn carts, or their own foot. In case of some unrest or civil war on the far end of his empire this might be a problem.

A revolt of that kind is far more likely in the NCR than in Legion. Perhaps the next Obsidian-made Fallout brings us a post-apocalyptic civil war scenario.
Yes, I think both NCR and The Legion is a bad choice for Mojave, that's why I've decided to side with Yes Man. And I'd totally love to see the post-apo empire torn apart by civil wars! That's what happened in A Canticle for Leibowitz novel too, so the circle of plagiarism would have been closed completely. ^^
 
well they crucify people so that's kinda a negative in their column. also im not a fan of their hierarchy system with the ceaser and all. it's a step backwards in civilization
 
And let's not forget that Caesar does have more advanced technology than the Romans, which allows for a more centralized empire, and therefore less powerful individuals alongside Caesar.
Perhaps. Even post-apo Caesar must resort to slow army transport - brahmin drawn carts, or their own foot. In case of some unrest or civil war on the far end of his empire this might be a problem.

A revolt of that kind is far more likely in the NCR than in Legion. Perhaps the next Obsidian-made Fallout brings us a post-apocalyptic civil war scenario.
Yes, I think both NCR and The Legion is a bad choice for Mojave, that's why I've decided to side with Yes Man. And I'd totally love to see the post-apo empire torn apart by civil wars! That's what happened in A Canticle for Leibowitz novel too, so the circle of plagiarism would have been closed completely. ^^
yes and yes. the only possible way was siding with yesman (massive monarchy or martial law? neither please. anarchy4lyfe) id like to see a fallout where the wastes is struggling with some kind of communism and an unseen power unfairly distributing goods. idk how:confused:, but i'd like to see it
 
And let's not forget that Caesar does have more advanced technology than the Romans, which allows for a more centralized empire, and therefore less powerful individuals alongside Caesar.
Perhaps. Even post-apo Caesar must resort to slow army transport - brahmin drawn carts, or their own foot. In case of some unrest or civil war on the far end of his empire this might be a problem.

A revolt of that kind is far more likely in the NCR than in Legion. Perhaps the next Obsidian-made Fallout brings us a post-apocalyptic civil war scenario.
Yes, I think both NCR and The Legion is a bad choice for Mojave, that's why I've decided to side with Yes Man. And I'd totally love to see the post-apo empire torn apart by civil wars! That's what happened in A Canticle for Leibowitz novel too, so the circle of plagiarism would have been closed completely. ^^
yes and yes. the only possible way was siding with yesman (massive monarchy or martial law? neither please. anarchy4lyfe) id like to see a fallout where the wastes is struggling with some kind of communism and an unseen power unfairly distributing goods. idk how:confused:, but i'd like to see it

Fallout:Market Forces

In which our hero plays a perfectly rational actor striving for true Pareto efficiency.
 
Well, the whole "commie villains" thing did become a bit stale. And usually the whole premise of them being villains is based exclusively on the fact that in many people's minds communist equals evil.

For example - Metro Last Light: You start off searching for the last Dark One, fighting Nazis, while of course, it's the commies who are the true villains! And in the end, you blow away the commie general who wanted to conquer all of the metro.

And while writing this half-assed plot, this seemed to have been their line of reasioning: "Hhm. As far as we know, all surviving humans are crammed into the Moscow metro. There's several thousand of them down there, and they are surrounded by dangerous anomalies and mutants, while constantly fighting amongst themselves. There are three big factions - the Hanza, ruthless capitalists who, among other things, exile people into abandoned tunnels once they no longer find them useful, the Nazis, who fight for Russian purity in the metro, and the Commies, who are evil because they are commies and we will make them evil however we can because they are commies. Who will be our main villain? A commie general who wants to conquer the entire metro, of course. Because the absolute worst thing that can happen is that the metro gets united under one government which is arguably the least psychopathic of the bunch. This salvation is brought to you by the same guy who, in the last game, exterminated a race of mutants who were in fact there to save humanity."
 
Who need moral in the post-apocalipsis?

Everyone? Morals are a complex code developed over thousands of years that allow humans to work together and live as part of a society. If anything, they are even more important in the post-apocalypse, because with raiders, mutants and hostile wildlife, the only way for people to have any sort of reasonable life is to work together for the long-term good, not backstab each other. That's the difference between a functioning community and a gang of raiders.
 
Who need moral in the post-apocalipsis?
Ayayayay, why you take my flag?

Everyone? Morals are a complex code developed over thousands of years that allow humans to work together and live as part of a society. If anything, they are even more important in the post-apocalypse, because with raiders, mutants and hostile wildlife, the only way for people to have any sort of reasonable life is to work together for the long-term good, not backstab each other. That's the difference between a functioning community and a gang of raiders.
Morals, we need legionary morals!
 
For me, I think the Legion is hated so much simply because isn't enough information on them. Lets take the Enclave for example; by and large, the Enclave are far worse than the Legion. They are inbred, genocidal, post-apocalyptic Americanized Nazi's that see themselves as the superior people, and even if there might have been a few soldiers in their ranks who disagreed with their ideals, there is absolutely no redeeming qualities about them.

And yet, even with all this, they are still one of the most loved factions in the series, a point of view I myself share. Now, lets compare the Enclave to the Legion; what is known about the Legion, without digging into Word of God lore, is that they rape, enslave, crucify, and murder those who don't fit into their world while rejecting technology and drugs regardless of their benefits. But by Raul's admittance, their lands are relatively safe. All the raiders have been either assimilated or destroyed, and despite the Legion's origins its lands are some of the safest in the Wastelands.

But they rape, and they enslave, and they're sexist and ignorant, and in my--and many others'-- opinion, they're doomed to fall apart as soon as its head dies. Nobody knows that Woman are not all slaves, that while they aren't allowed to fight they are not reduced to working cattle in Legion territory. They don't have as much rights as men, true, but Caesar's philosophy is one that's taken from a world that took place centuries before the Great War--women need to be kept safe, so that they can ensure the population grows.

A bit of an outdated concept for us in modern times, but in medieval times--and I'm sure this goes for Post-Apocalyptic as well--it was a logical and completely necessary thing. In the same vein, Homosexuality is illegal in the Legion because it does not aid in the growth of the populace--there is even a quota of births all Legionaries must make by law.

I don't like the Legion, but I can see the value and worth in their society. Caesar wants to forge an empire that's powerful and stable, one that will thrive in the harsh world the Great War has left in its wake and, as much as I hate to say it, he's done just that. Whether or not the Legion will survive without him is debatable, but so long as he is alive his empire will flourish.

Now that I really think about, I think the main reason the Legion is hated by the vast majority is because we've been taught from a young age to be against everything the Legion does. We no longer live in a time period where people see the things the Legion does and think "That makes sense", because doing those things are no longer necessary for us--we've advance beyond that point to where it just seems alien now. The Legion is perfect for the world it exists in, but in our world--in reality--their mentality is one we no longer understand, nor do people care too.

And that, I believe, is why the Legion is hated.
 
For me, I think the Legion is hated so much simply because isn't enough information on them. Lets take the Enclave for example; by and large, the Enclave are far worse than the Legion. They are inbred, genocidal, post-apocalyptic Americanized Nazi's that see themselves as the superior people, and even if there might have been a few soldiers in their ranks who disagreed with their ideals, there is absolutely no redeeming qualities about them.

And yet, even with all this, they are still one of the most loved factions in the series, a point of view I myself share. Now, lets compare the Enclave to the Legion; what is known about the Legion, without digging into Word of God lore, is that they rape, enslave, crucify, and murder those who don't fit into their world while rejecting technology and drugs regardless of their benefits. But by Raul's admittance, their lands are relatively safe. All the raiders have been either assimilated or destroyed, and despite the Legion's origins its lands are some of the safest in the Wastelands.

But they rape, and they enslave, and they're sexist and ignorant, and in my--and many others'-- opinion, they're doomed to fall apart as soon as its head dies. Nobody knows that Woman are not all slaves, that while they aren't allowed to fight they are not reduced to working cattle in Legion territory. They don't have as much rights as men, true, but Caesar's philosophy is one that's taken from a world that took place centuries before the Great War--women need to be kept safe, so that they can ensure the population grows.

A bit of an outdated concept for us in modern times, but in medieval times--and I'm sure this goes for Post-Apocalyptic as well--it was a logical and completely necessary thing. In the same vein, Homosexuality is illegal in the Legion because it does not aid in the growth of the populace--there is even a quota of births all Legionaries must make by law.

I don't like the Legion, but I can see the value and worth in their society. Caesar wants to forge an empire that's powerful and stable, one that will thrive in the harsh world the Great War has left in its wake and, as much as I hate to say it, he's done just that. Whether or not the Legion will survive without him is debatable, but so long as he is alive his empire will flourish.

Now that I really think about, I think the main reason the Legion is hated by the vast majority is because we've been taught from a young age to be against everything the Legion does. We no longer live in a time period where people see the things the Legion does and think "That makes sense", because doing those things are no longer necessary for us--we've advance beyond that point to where it just seems alien now. The Legion is perfect for the world it exists in, but in our world--in reality--their mentality is one we no longer understand, nor do people care too.

And that, I believe, is why the Legion is hated.
This.
 
The only thing Legion requiers is total overhaul quest mods. Don't you want to travel to their territories and see for yourself how they live? And that was planned.
 
Morals, we need legionary morals!

Which is why the legion are so much better than raiders. They have a system of morals. Sure, it's a perverse and pretty horrible system, but it allows a lot of people to live in peace and security, rather than endless bloodshed.

I don't think they're anywhere near as good as the NCR's morals, but that's not the point right now.
 
I don't think they're anywhere near as good as the NCR's morals, but that's not the point right now.
I think that Legion's morals suits well in a harsh wasteland but later on the Legion will eventually become rather rudimental system that needs to be taken care of. While west coast doing I guess I'll say for lack of any words 'fine' but eastern we get worse the situation is. Development of something like Legion here is inevitable, for the sake of saving order.

On a side note about east coast. It's just polluted lands with lots of pre-war loot. So think of this coast as 'The Zone' from STALKER. Anyone there are degenerates who belongs on the cross but run away for various reasons.
 
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I think that Legion's morals suits well in a harsh wasteland but later on the Legion will eventually become rather rudimental system that needs to be taken care of. While west coast doing I guess I'll say for lack of any words 'fine' but eastern we get worse the situation is. Development of something like Legion here is inevitable, for the sake of saving order.

On a side note about east coast. It's just polluted lands with lots of pre-war loot. So think of this coast as 'The Zone' from STALKER. Anyone there are degenerates who belongs on the cross but run away for various reasons.
I get the feeling that Caesar will reform the Legion, but only after getting his capital and organization of his empire.
 
I get the feeling that Caesar will reform the Legion, but only after getting his capital and organization of his empire.

I would have a lot more time for Caesar if he stuck to conquering tribals and raiders. Maybe a brutal system is necessary there, it's when he still employs the same tactics against the NCR, which already provides safety for its citizens, that I really start to have a problem.

Side point:
How cool would it be if the lore was developed that the Legion originally tried to make peace with the NCR and continue its expansion north and east, but it was in fact the NCR who started the war over Hoover Dam? We never see the actual origins of the war, it's just assumed the Legion attacked on sight. I think it would fit in well with the setting an general tone of New Vegas if it turns out the NCR had brought the storm of the legion upon themselves.
 
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